It's always the other guy.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| dinotrac Aug 31, 2009 6:38 AM EDT |
Darn those nasty users! How dare they be unimpressed with my nifty design and fail to appreciate all of the great benefits we get from it just because they can't do the things they used to do. Who needs users, anyway? After all, we didn't choose to work for such a large and visible project because of the geek cred it brings, right? What a maroon. |
| tracyanne Aug 31, 2009 9:38 AM EDT |
I lost interst in KDE4 some time ago, it gives me nothing useful. |
| jdixon Aug 31, 2009 9:55 AM EDT |
> I lost interst in KDE4 some time ago, Actually, from everything I've read, at this point it's a least usable, if not completely finished. If they had simply waited unitl 4.2 to call it 4.0, everything would have been well. |
| dinotrac Aug 31, 2009 9:56 AM EDT |
ta - I'm with you. I haven't even been using KDE3 any more because I don't see a clear path forward. I've been doing some work on a Mac lately, and it's nice enough -- almost -- for me to consider parting with some dollars and leaving Linux land altogether. Always liked Macs, but never felt this close to taking the plunge. The whole KDE4 debacle is really shaking my faith in free software, and I've hung true in spite of Debian/KDE ten years ago, Mozilla turning the browser world over to IE, and a raft of small annoyances. Maybe it's just Monday. I hope so. |
| jacog Aug 31, 2009 10:07 AM EDT |
KDE4 is the cat's whiskers. (is the boat falling over yet?) |
| azerthoth Aug 31, 2009 12:07 PM EDT |
Sounds like they are still suffering from the phenomenon of "the dev is always right". Not completely restricted to devs, some who have an inordinate amount of knowledge on $TOPIC develop the same outlook. It's funny I was just thinking about this last night. I was looking at how I ended up reacting to a new user after spending 45 minutes trying to walk them through a one line edit of xorg.conf to add a resolution option. This is something that is 30 seconds for most people who have even a passing knowledge. 5 minutes if you have never done anything like it before. So after 45 minutes I was getting noticeably more and more sarcastic and struggling to keep it as civil as I could, finally the other person ran out of time and had to leave support, and all I felt was relief. The point? While I can sympathize with the KDE (and other) Devs, personally knowing that kind of frustration, "You dont know what your talking about, STFU" is never the correct answer. Take 30 seconds to educate, while your target may not get the explanation, someone else might and then explain it in laymans terms for them. Knowledge not STFU is the key to understanding the difficulties involved in any project. |
| dinotrac Aug 31, 2009 1:33 PM EDT |
There is a simple solution to egotistical devs who don't want to be bothered by users: Start your own project, join one that caters to other devs, or work on something nobody uses. It ain't rocket science, guys: You mess something up that lots of people use without giving due consideration to their needs, you're going to get a very bad reaction. |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 31, 2009 1:50 PM EDT |
> You mess something up that lots of people use without giving due consideration to their needs, you're going to get a very bad reaction. That's the reason I was so glad that Debian Lenny was released with KDE3, rather than jumping to KDE4. 4 really, really needed time to settle down. It will, eventually. Maybe it has. I think TA above is correct, there should have been a longer pre-release period for 4. More of "this is a work in progress, give it a try if you like, help out and it will be done sooner" and less "this is what we're doing, take it or leave it." What about the idea that the KDE developers seriously underestimated just how many people use KDE? > "You dont know what your talking about, STFU" is never the correct answer. Not if you've any interest in someone using your product, that's for sure. |
| mrider Aug 31, 2009 3:03 PM EDT |
> What about the idea that the KDE developers seriously underestimated just how many people use KDE? That sounds pretty reasonable. I know that I intend to use KDE4 at some point. I've tinkered with it a few times. But I need an environment that is familiar. I'm used to KDE3x. So although I haven't joined the ranks of the whiners, I don't really feel like KDE4 is ready for me. At this point I'm simply waiting for it to have been mature long enough that a solid distro has a good setup. I sort of liked Sidux, but it moves way too fast for my taste. I prefer to not using rolling distros, but would accept one if it didn't roll so fast... |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 31, 2009 5:09 PM EDT |
mrider, I may take the plunge with the next Debian stable. It will be a shame to lose all my settings, I really like the way I've been able to get KDE3 to look/feel. But all things in life, even the good things, must pass. |
| Scott_Ruecker Aug 31, 2009 5:20 PM EDT |
@Bob; I just recently started running Ubuntu full time. talk about lost settings..after having run PCLOS with KDE 3.5.10 for some time I have begun using Gnome more in the last two weeks than I have in the last two years.. |
| jdixon Aug 31, 2009 6:06 PM EDT |
> It will be a shame to lose all my settings... Back up your home folder and keep the copy, just in case. |
| tracyanne Aug 31, 2009 6:39 PM EDT |
I'm getting better usability out of GNOME and XFCE than KDE4. The features I'd like to see in KDE4 aren't there, and it seems slow and bloated on my computers. |
| Sander_Marechal Aug 31, 2009 7:32 PM EDT |
Who needs a DE anyway? For the last week I've been rolling with Awesome WM and I'm loving it so far, a few issues aside. Add a stand alone file manager and a stand alone auto-mounter and explain why I need a DE at all? |
| azerthoth Aug 31, 2009 9:00 PM EDT |
@Sander, you don't really, I have found myself running more and more lately running without a manager, note I did not say without X. Just controlling it all myself. No .xintinrc, no DE or DM, just X :0 -ac & |
| chalbersma Aug 31, 2009 9:13 PM EDT |
as I've said before. Real men use fluxbox |
| jdixon Aug 31, 2009 9:30 PM EDT |
> Real men use fluxbox And us wimps use XFCE. :) |
| caitlyn Aug 31, 2009 9:41 PM EDT |
KDE3 was bloated. KDE4 is bloated. I've played with KDE 4.2.4 quite a bit with Pardus. It really isn't bad and it works well. I still prefer Xfce. |
| bigg Aug 31, 2009 9:44 PM EDT |
> I still prefer Xfce. I prefer a nicely-done XFCE. Vector's XFCE is IMO the best DE independent of resource usage. |
| caitlyn Aug 31, 2009 9:45 PM EDT |
Vector's is really nice, particularly if you do the upgrade to 4.6.1 and upgrade all the goodies. The Pardus implementation is equally nice. |
| gus3 Aug 31, 2009 10:17 PM EDT |
Sawfish! |
| caitlyn Aug 31, 2009 10:19 PM EDT |
No, gus3, this isn't a speakeasy. That isn't the password. |
| gus3 Aug 31, 2009 10:23 PM EDT |
Yes, I already know the password. It's "asterisk asterisk asterisk asterisk asterisk". I watched you typing it a couple days ago. |
| caitlyn Aug 31, 2009 10:38 PM EDT |
You watched me typing? Where were you hiding? I really do have to be more careful. |
| azerthoth Sep 01, 2009 2:01 AM EDT |
gus I warned you she would twig to the cybernetic ferrets pretty quick. |
| caitlyn Sep 01, 2009 2:17 AM EDT |
LOL. My ferrets are very real. The really old, blind one, Ella, is starting to be less than 100% with the litter pan for the first time in her life. (She still mostly goes where she's supposed to.) Anyway, I don't think a cyberferret would do that. I also think someone would go nuts trying to program Chin Soon's personality and quirks into anything :) |
| dinotrac Sep 01, 2009 7:20 AM EDT |
Ah ha! We finally ferret out the truth about caitlyn. |
| lcafiero Sep 03, 2009 11:52 AM EDT |
+1 to caitlyn -- anyone who can get a Marx Bros. reference into LXer should get a prize. |
| caitlyn Sep 03, 2009 12:55 PM EDT |
Well... the Marx Bros. were my maternal grandfather's cousins so it's a family obligation :) |
| dinotrac Sep 03, 2009 1:08 PM EDT |
Hey! Talk about a small world! They were in movies my maternal grandfather's cousins went to see! What are the chances? |
| tuxchick Sep 03, 2009 6:17 PM EDT |
Caitlyn, your people are from Freedonia? |
| caitlyn Sep 03, 2009 7:08 PM EDT |
No, but maybe someone did cheer "Hooray for Captain Spalding!". The Marx family were Jewish immigrants from Germany, as was my grandfather, though he came much later. The relationship goes back to my great grandparents' generation. |
| tuxchick Sep 03, 2009 7:33 PM EDT |
No fair. Everyone else has ancestors who were famous or royalty or something. Mine were ordinary. Some of them grew grapes and made wine. Big woop. Getting back on topic. And I am not sorry. It seems that some sort of tool for recording and tracking user feedback is long overdue. Make pretty graphs and report summaries, and give devs a picture in aggregate of what users think is important. I think bug tracking could use something similar, it seems to me the existing bug trackers are pretty bad. There is nothing to catch duplicates, they're hard for bug reporters to use, they're hard to search, and there aren't any good triaging mechanisms. I think something that organizes all this data into manageable snapshots would go a long way towards relieving developer angst. Or at least give them fewer excuses to ignore users. |
| caitlyn Sep 03, 2009 7:38 PM EDT |
Quoting:No fair. Everyone else has ancestors who were famous or royalty or something. Mine were ordinary. Some of them grew grapes and made wine. Big woop. I think if we could all trace our family trees back far enough we'd find somebody famous in them. Look, you don't want my family history anyway. Both my parents were Holocaust survivors. Lots of the family wasn't that lucky at the time. My father fought in two wars after that. You know how my gradfather's branch of the family ended up in Germany? Escaping the Spanish Inquisition in the late 15th century. Trust me, being boring and growing wine sounds pretty good. Getting back on topit? Bah! This is LXer.com. We don't need no stinking topics. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 03, 2009 7:55 PM EDT |
Hmm... Something about the Mayflower, William the Conqueror, and a few other things. Who cares about family history anyway, they're dead. Let's MAKE history. |
| montezuma Sep 03, 2009 8:05 PM EDT |
Completely OT but if you do some simple math you discover that you have around 1 billion ancestors going back only 30 generations i.e. around 600 years. Plenty of room for famous folks there (as well as overlap ewww) |
| tuxchick Sep 03, 2009 8:10 PM EDT |
Aw who needs celebrity ancestors anyway. What I really want are the kind who remember me generously in their wills. |
| caitlyn Sep 03, 2009 8:21 PM EDT |
You have rich people in your family, tc? Must be nice... |
| gus3 Sep 03, 2009 10:47 PM EDT |
The Royal Clan Stewart here. Of course, lots of people would have to die before I could ascend the throne. Or some watery bint lobs a scimitar at me... |
| techiem2 Sep 04, 2009 1:17 PM EDT |
Clan Montgomery here.
We are connected to the EU royalty somewhere along the line.
(Dad's a big genealogy buff) http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/o/n/Mark-D-Mont... (should tell Dad to update that page....) |
| Storyteller Sep 04, 2009 1:26 PM EDT |
PFFF. . . European family history can only go back so far. . . .My great Uncle has been able to trace our family history back to 18BC. To the Japanese, family lineage is very important. Now, in our long family history there has been everything from scoundrels to royalty. Me, I am the 46th generation of the Ouchi family. Back on topic: I am currently using Kubuntu with KDE3x, I'll move to KDE 4x with the next Kubuntu LTS release. |
| montezuma Sep 04, 2009 2:41 PM EDT |
Och really gus3? I am from clan Wallace. |
| gus3 Sep 04, 2009 10:32 PM EDT |
@mont: LOL. I went to school with one of your clan, except that it was only traced patrilineally. His family tree was mostly English. ;-) |
| hkwint Sep 06, 2009 4:57 PM EDT |
Quoting:Add a stand alone file manager and a stand alone auto-mounter and explain why I need a DE at all? OK, here's the dirty hack I used for the "no DE auto-mounter" problem: Just install whole freakin' KDE4, but don't actually 'use' it. That means, don't use the 'startkde' command. "wmaker" is still in my .xinitrc (since 2005 I believe; before that I was using BlackBox but it was a bit too spartan), and I still use it. For those of you who don't know WindowMaker: It's ugly - unless you remove _all_ icons like I did. Also, wmaker is unmaintained; or depending on your view it's "fast and stable"; never breaks, never changes. Most important: It's the quickest way to run Ktorrent, Kontact, Konsole and whatever. When using these programs in a non-KDE window manager, it's better to install whole KDE because if you only install KMail and KTorrent on their own, some things may not work. For example when clicking a http link in KMail it didn't start a new tab with that address in Firefox - always gave errors - until I installed whole freakin' KDE; then my problem was gone. Then, if you need to 'automount' something, just start dolphin, click on the volume you want, and then you can minimalize or even close dolphin. Done! Start your graphical term (I use Konsole nowadays, but any term will do), and you can happy cp or mv to /media/disk/"whatever KDE decided" from the shell. I had some 'manually configured' auto-mounter in the past, and I did have some manually written udev-rules in the past, but none of it is used anymore (if that's possible, I'm not sure how KDE handles auto-mounting) since I have Dolphin. You see, that's what's great about KDE, you can decide for yourself what parts you want to use and which parts you don't want to use. The only real problem I have is that I'm using Gentoo, so installing KDE4 (still keyworded / unstable, meaning lots of auto-unmasking) is no joy at all. Another interesting thing to mention is I was so tired of Amarok being slow (more than 30 sec to start!) I'm using 'cmus', an ncurses music player - ri |
| montezuma Sep 06, 2009 5:09 PM EDT |
@gus3 Not many English in my line. Here is my great grandfather: [url=http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/wa-wh.htm#George Wallace (South Adelaide)]http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/wa-wh.htm#George Wallace (Sou...[/url] He was a great photographer as well.... |
| caitlyn Sep 06, 2009 6:10 PM EDT |
On automounting without a DE: Vector Linux Light uses VL-Hot, which is a lightweight replacement for HAL that can handle most of what you want. It won't automount a CD/DVD when inserted, but it does most everything else. It's mostly scripts plus a GUI front-end configuration tool written in Gambas so it should be possible to get it to work with any distro. There's no overhead (as in the HAL daemon running all the time) and no need to install KDE, which is frankly huge. See: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/02/vl-hot-a-non-polling-al... That's an article I wrote on VL-Hot. |
| hkwint Sep 07, 2009 5:14 AM EDT |
Thanks Caitlyn. Wow, I must be ignorant, VL-Hot has been covered on LXer in February: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/116305/index.html |
| caitlyn Sep 07, 2009 10:35 AM EDT |
Hans, I don't think you're ignorant. I think it's impossible to keep up with all the interesting Linux projects out there. VL-Hot gets very little coverage and hasn't been picked up by other lightweight distros which, IMHO, is truly a pity. |
| hkwint Sep 07, 2009 11:24 AM EDT |
Sadly, there's not much documentation and I can only find how to download from SVN. Given that VL-hot doesn't work for CDROM's / stuff present at boot time I'm not sure it's worth the hassle. |
| caitlyn Sep 08, 2009 12:01 AM EDT |
You could download the Vector Linux package. It's just an lzma compressed tarball (Slackware package). You are correct that you still have to manually mount a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM. Of course, something like the mount applet in Xfce works fine for that. |
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