TomTom does NOT support the community!
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| flufferbeer Aug 17, 2009 10:24 PM EDT |
and the million-Euro question is, Will it ever???? TracyAnne's right on, what with the TomTom "Help" desk people clearly trying to avoid assisting her in any meaningful way. Besides TA's dissecting the false claims by lazzurs in one of the previous threads, there has even been a Ubuntu Online Petition for TomTom's Home Software to Support Linux and a Boycott TomTom site (beehivehairdresser.com for this latter). With TomTom device purchasers like TracyAnne speaking up, I'd guess that it's about time for TomTom to "put up or shut up". If it decides to shut up as it keeps doing, then hopefully competitive GPS devs will soon "put up" Linux Support and TomTom will then get buried by its competition. 2c |
| tracyanne Aug 17, 2009 11:14 PM EDT |
Quoting:there has even been a Ubuntu Online Petition for TomTom's Home I had no knowledge of this petition, so I suspect the relatively small number of signatures (705 after I added mine) reflects the lack of visibility of the petition. There are probably many other TomTom customers who use Linux who have simply given up and binned the device, or gone out and followed TomTom's best advice, and purchased a Windows computer. Microsoft are probably rather grateful. |
| azerthoth Aug 18, 2009 2:01 AM EDT |
You know on curiosity I just went and checked, even though some of the packages used are more than just a tad outdated all of them have one thing in common. The outdated ones are all GPLv2 of the ones where a more current version has migrated to GPLv3. There are some with other more permissive licenses in the mix as well. While I rail against GPLv3 for personal reasons, the apparent self imposed limitation seems to back the premise that while TomTom meets its license obligations that are currently imposed upon it, as a company they aren't willing to go one step further. This requires a clarification, being an open source company is not the same as being open source friendly. The first meets its required obligations, the second realizes that meeting those same obligations is a minimum action and goes beyond. I have no issues with a company being of the meet the minimum requirements variety. I however do take issue with a company that claims to be open source friendly while doing absolutely nothing that would foster that friendship. The open source community is an interesting beast, typically we will back open source projects in any way we can. However when corporate entities are involved, it is up to them to make the initial overtures and show sincerity. We tend to be just a bit gun shy about corp-rat entities, since we have all seen a few of those. So TomTom, are you going to be friendly or obligatory? The choice is yours, make the effort, we will meet you there. |
| flufferbeer Aug 18, 2009 12:20 PM EDT |
@TA and az
Already have followed the thread which TomTom's lazzurs started, as I'm sure you have too, and I see that no TomTom persons have bothered to reply since lazzur's 1st comment. It's been almost a full day since lazzur commented in that thread. My guess is that TomTom will act OpenSource friendly only to the extent that lazzurs and others hope to draw in some "free-as-in-beer" F/OSS programmers to develop TomTom products. penguinist and Sander are now suggesting in the other thread that publicising OpenTom and/or extending a "community-TomTom partnership" with TomTom might help bring them out of their OpenSource closet. |
| kt Aug 18, 2009 12:28 PM EDT |
flufferbeer said: "Already have followed the thread which TomTom's lazzurs started, as I'm sure you have too, and I see that no TomTom persons have bothered to reply since lazzur's 1st comment." I doubt that strong language used by some posters is a good fertilizer for any cooperation from TomTom. |
| softwarejanitor Aug 18, 2009 1:28 PM EDT |
@kt I doubt things would have gone much differently had posters been gentler with lazzur. He made it clear that he wasn't an official representative, so it is probably pretty limited as to what he could say at all. Chances are he already went beyond what he was supposed to say with his initial post. On a more serious note... I don't know how elaborate TomTom's software is. It seems like it shouldn't be that hard to upload new data to GPS unit. How hard could it really be to port their software or at least provide a simplistic (command line perhaps) tool do just be able to do a basic upload to the device? It wouldn't need to be anything fancy just as long as it worked. |
| flufferbeer Aug 18, 2009 1:29 PM EDT |
kt wrote "I doubt that strong language used by some posters is a good fertilizer for any cooperation from TomTom." Actually, more like the reverse: I strongly doubt that TomTom's avoidance of posters here is a good fertilizer for any cooperation from F/OSS programmers to help TomTom develop their products for free. |
| softwarejanitor Aug 18, 2009 1:35 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer So far it doesn't look like TomTom is open to FOSS developers helping popularize their platform. FWIW, some are working on it anyway... I found this link which looks interesting: http://stefans.datenbruch.de/tomtom/ Especially the ttmapinstall.sh script... |
| caitlyn Aug 18, 2009 2:13 PM EDT |
@kt, flufferbeer: There's plenty of organic fertilizer to go around IMHO. |
| flufferbeer Aug 18, 2009 4:13 PM EDT |
Plenty of "fertilizer" yes, and much of it coming from the direction of TomTom. I think that TomTom's attempts to use any types of "fertilization" for yielding free product development comes across as fairly obvious here. fb |
| jdixon Aug 18, 2009 4:41 PM EDT |
> I doubt that strong language used by some posters is a good fertilizer for any cooperation from TomTom. Sugar coating your message doesn't tend to get you anywhere when dealing with corporations. Besides, Tracyanne had already tried the approved, polite approach. Not that it matters, since no one from TomTom has bothered following up on the thread. |
| kt Aug 18, 2009 5:04 PM EDT |
jdixon said: "Sugar coating your message doesn't tend to get you anywhere when dealing with corporations. " The strong language approach has even less chances of getting cooperation -- corporations are people. |
| tracyanne Aug 18, 2009 5:11 PM EDT |
@kt, what strong language are you talking about, we aren't allowed to use profanity here, so it must be some other form of strong language. So perhaps you mean we should approach TomTom is the following manner "Please we beg of you oh great and wonderful TomTom, we have bouught one or another of you devices, and we most humbly beg that you make it possible that we actually be able to use it" Do you think somehting more like that would work? |
| jdixon Aug 18, 2009 5:15 PM EDT |
> The strong language approach has even less chances of getting cooperation Depends. I've known it to work on occasion. Especially if you make yourself enough of a nuisance. Ever have to wait for an order at a fast food place? Did they ever ask you to have a seat until the order is ready? Who do you think gets their order faster, the person who sits down or the person who stands there slowing traffic until the order is brought to them? Besides, as I noted, the polite approach has already been tried. From the well-oiled responses, I'd say it's been tried more than a few times. > ...corporations are people. Corporations are made up of people. That's not quite the same thing. And of course, if you're going to treat the corporation as a person, rather than as an impersonal entity, there's also a pesky old adage which should come into play in matters like this. You know, "the customer is always right". And then there's the simple fact that some people prefer to call a spade a spade. |
| tracyanne Aug 18, 2009 5:26 PM EDT |
@kt I doubt that any form of language is conducive to cooperation from TomTom. I'm pretty sure they don't give a rats. That using software they can get for free is the only reason they have any interest in Linux at all. |
| kt Aug 18, 2009 5:27 PM EDT |
Tracy said: "what strong language are you talking about, we aren't allowed to use profanity here" Tracy, below are some quotes from the other thread. I consider them to be a strong language approach (as, I'm sure, TomTom) >>> Clearly you don't, as.... (editor: removed for TOS violation) What have I done to solve my problem. I can't say what I would really like to say in response to this piece of arrogance. >>> I think that a civilized approach has more chances of getting cooperation. Also, there is no need to sugar-coat it. |
| Sander_Marechal Aug 18, 2009 5:39 PM EDT |
Quoting:Especially the ttmapinstall.sh script... Cool. I also noticed that you can simply download the maps files from the TomTom store (after paying of course). More over, appartently a TomTom device simply mounts as a USB mass storage device. So... in theory it's possible to develop something like TomTom HOME entirely inside the FOSS community... |
| kt Aug 18, 2009 5:45 PM EDT |
Tracy said: "using software they can get for free is the only reason they have any interest in Linux at all." Maybe they also like other Linux's advantages? |
| tracyanne Aug 18, 2009 6:25 PM EDT |
@ kt, maybe, they do. But I'd guess, given their reluctance to support Linux using customers, the free bit is the more important. BTW kt responding, as I did, to the arrogance of that persons comment, was quite mild, if you don't like strong language or profanity, be thankful for the TOS. |
| tracyanne Aug 18, 2009 6:39 PM EDT |
It's interesting that the solution to the problem of no Linux client for TomTom Home, is, as always, the Linux community does all the hard work and the corporate who shows no interest benefits. If I'm a Mac or a Windows user they chase my patronage. If I'm a Linux user I'm expected to provide the solution by which they will then make money from me. |
| kt Aug 18, 2009 7:12 PM EDT |
Tracy said: "BTW kt responding, as I did, to the arrogance of that persons comment, was quite mild, if you don't like strong language or profanity, be thankful for the TOS." We are not discussing my language usage preferences. Anyway, TOS filter is not automatic -- the remarks were/are hanging there long enough. I do not expect you to agree with me on this whole "strong language" subject, so, to save you time and a possible TOS delete, I will answer for you: "F... off, kt". |
| tracyanne Aug 18, 2009 7:29 PM EDT |
@kt, nothing of the sort. You didn't reply to me with arrogance, as the TomTom person did, you merely suggested that I use mild language. I considered that I did. On the other hand asking TomTom nicely doesn't seem to pay dividends, I tried that in my conversation with their help desk. My last resort was to post that conversation in the open. A TomTom person suggested rather arrogantly, I believe, that I had not done enough to resolve MY problem - namey that I have a Linux operating system and TomTom doesn't support it. He even arrogantly suggested that as a Linux user it was my responsibility to write the necessary code myself. |
| kt Aug 18, 2009 7:38 PM EDT |
Tracy, maybe the TomTom person's message was a little "shaky". I understand your rightful frustration. |
| tracyanne Aug 18, 2009 8:13 PM EDT |
kt, "a little shaky" is definately putting it mildly, and hardly describes the attitude one would need to have to have said what was said. No, arrogance, even contempt, are better descriptions. The assumptions explicit in the persons interogetives "What have you done to resolve your problem?" My Problem is that I puichased a product in good faith, only to discover they don't support my preferred operating system. My problem is that their solution to my problem is that I use an operating system i don't use. Or because I'm a Linux user provide the solution they can't be bothered providing. |
| gus3 Aug 18, 2009 8:34 PM EDT |
I've gotten results using strong language, and words referring to state law enforcement officials (but no profanities). |
| tuxchick Aug 18, 2009 8:38 PM EDT |
Perhaps, kt, when you get tired of attacking the messenger, you could give an example of where you used sweet-talk and niceness to get a vendor to supply a native Linux client. Bonus points if it's a vendor like TomTom who claims to be a good friend of the penguin, but really isn't. |
| kt Aug 18, 2009 8:58 PM EDT |
TC, I made my point. Keep your bonus points. |
| caitlyn Aug 18, 2009 9:48 PM EDT |
There is a time for sugarcoating and a time to play hardball. There are also times when nothing will work because the company in question doesn't see it as profitable to change. I think this is one of those times. |
| tuxchick Aug 18, 2009 9:59 PM EDT |
No kt, you're saying "Don't complain, because then it will be the fault of the complainers for chasing TomTom away and now they'll never support Linux." Nobody in any of these threads was rude or insulting. Blunt, yes. Though in TomTom's case I suspect their strings are being pulled by Microsoft, so they're going to be as deaf to Linux users as possible. Real choice and real competition are what it takes to keep big business in line, and are the most effective defenses against predatory, greedy corporate behaviors. Which is why Job One at Microsoft has always been killing off competition and customer choice. And why we can't give up and go "oh well, that's the way it is, maybe if we be super-nice somehow everything will work out." TA's article raised some excellent and important points. TomTom is not a Linux company, they're just another proprietary vendor who have discovered how excellent BusyBox is. They're jumping through the minimum required hoops so they can keep using BusyBox, and no more. How much TomTom code do you see on their GPL page? http://www.tomtom.com/page.php?Page=gpl |
| kt Aug 18, 2009 10:05 PM EDT |
TC said: "No kt, you're saying "Don't complain, because then it will be the fault of the complainers for chasing TomTom away and now they'll never support Linux."" This is complete nonsense. |
| caitlyn Aug 18, 2009 10:22 PM EDT |
Nonsense? That's how I read it too. You were effectively saying if we don't play nice TomTom won't listen to us. Tuxchick is right. TomTom won't play nice either way. |
| kt Aug 18, 2009 10:30 PM EDT |
caitlyn said: "Nonsense? That's how I read it too. You were effectively saying if we don't play nice TomTom won't listen to us. Tuxchick is right. TomTom won't play nice either way." This is nonsense too. A call for civilized conduct and a call for not complaining are two different things. I, clearly, made the first one. Time for rest, caitlyn? |
| flufferbeer Aug 18, 2009 11:22 PM EDT |
kt said "This is nonsense too. A call for civilized conduct and a call for not complaining are two different things. I, clearly, made the first one." kt, maybe time you should actually notice tracyanne's very civilized conduct within her dealings with the TomTom "Help" desk people in the posting that prompted this discussion? lazzurs said: **"I believe above I have shown (and if not I am telling you) that TomTom does support the FOSS community in more ways than one. What have you done to resolve your problem? Have you tried writing software, submitting a patch or any thing else other than shouting out loud on this web site?"** I think that this particular quoted part of lazzurs' thread most led to TA's using the terms "arrogance, even contempt" applied to TomTom's assumptions toward Linux. Someone else who is following tracyanne's story here also uses the term "chutzpah" for lazzurs' attitude here, and I would agree that's highly accurate! The same person guesses that although TomTom techs see no need to respond anytime soon to tracyanne here, at the the same time, they are probably taking selective notes of some of the responses in this and in the other threads for their very own proprietary uses. |
| jdixon Aug 18, 2009 11:24 PM EDT |
> I think this is one of those times. I have to agree. However, it was worth the try. > A call for civilized conduct and a call for not complaining are two different things. That they are, but the "strong language used by some posters" is not uncivilized. You want and example of uncivilized? How about storming their headquarters and beheading their management. That would be uncivilized. The key dividing line of civilization is sticks and stones vs. words, not strong language vs diplomacy. Even the civilized realize there is a time when diplomacy has failed and the time for stong language has come. With companies such as TomTom, that time has more than come. |
| kt Aug 18, 2009 11:28 PM EDT |
JD, obviously, our definitions of “civilized” differ. |
| jdixon Aug 19, 2009 7:05 AM EDT |
> ...obviously, our definitions of “civilized” differ. Seems so, yes. You might want to review the history of "civilized" societies sometime to see which is more accurate. You might wish to call the language used rude, uncouth, not diplomatic, or perhaps even inappropriate. All of those could be reasonably used, whether correct or not. However, in a world where nations go to war at the drop of a hat, it would be really stretching things to call it uncivilized. |
| kt Aug 19, 2009 9:40 AM EDT |
JD, here's a link to a dictionary: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilized |
| tuxchick Aug 19, 2009 10:38 AM EDT |
LOL, here we are on the next day and kt is still dodging and trying to distract from the actual topic. Or is it uncivilized to call out ad hominem attacks? Now that is what I call uncivilized, since the purpose is to derail the discussion rather than engage in it. Somebody somewheres, I lost track in all the threads, said TA should have read the box since supposedly it says "supports Windows and Mac" only. But that's not reliable as we all know from long experience-- many devices work fine on Linux, thanks to free community development and support, and often even manufacturer support, but it won't say so in the product literature. Which brings up the age-old question of why on God's green earth wouldn't a company want every last customer they can get, especially when they don't have to lift a finger? Why wouldn't a company want to explore any path that leads them out from under the thumb of Redmond? It's amazing how much wasted effort goes into supporting Windows. Hardware vendors write all kinds of custom drivers for every Windows version when they don't need to, but they do it anyway. This is a disease with audio hardware, for one example-- they even write special USB 1.x and 2.x drivers for Windows that don't add any extra functionality, just more cruft and bugs. USB 3.0 is total disaster because none of them want to write to the standard, but only to Windows, so USB 3.0 audio interfaces don't work on Linux. It is hard to see this as anything other than they rolled over for Sauron yet again. |
| montezuma Aug 19, 2009 11:26 AM EDT |
Yeah tc I concur. I had an interesting recent experience that fits this mold of writing cr@ppy software for Windows only when a perfectly good cross platform solution exists: In my market the cable operator (cablevision) has started offering free wireless to its internet customers. On a laptop all that happens when in range is that a web interface pops up and you insert your cablevision username and password and you are good to go. The competition to cablevision is verizon who offer a superlative fiber optics alternative (fios). Well they saw the cablevision wireless offering and decided to "compete". What a disaster! They wrote a buggy authentication applet which ONLY WORKS on Windows Vista or Windows XP (SP3). No mac support. No linux support. No Windows 7 support even! You HAVE to use the applet to access the wireless AP. No choice. Moreover on Windows you have to disable most add on connection software to get the applet to work. WAY TO GO VERIZON!!!! /rant |
| tuxchick Aug 19, 2009 11:32 AM EDT |
montezuma, that is astounding. All the time I see comments like "Businesses wouldn't do that unless it made sense." Yeah, uh huh, especially US businesses, who are having their clocks cleaned by everyone else in the world. You Ess A! We put the No in Innovation! |
| hkwint Aug 19, 2009 11:40 AM EDT |
Quoting:You were effectively saying if we don't play nice TomTom won't listen to us. Tuxchick is right. TomTom won't play nice either way. Not true. It depends of how many potential / frustrated current customers 'us' exist and on how many noise 'us' makes. Where 'us' makes that noise also makes a difference (is it LXer, Slashdot or FD.nl?) It also matters how 'us' talks probably. 90% of the people over here are looking from their own 'small' point of view, not from a "TomTom-exec" point of view. Wether polite or not is probably not interesting to Tomtom execs (or whatever company), rather if there are 'business opportunities' or not. Instead of blaming a sole TomTom employee and the phone team and telling how they don't support 'us', it would probably be more helpful to make them aware of the opportunity they are missing right now. Talk in 'growth markets', like Brazil and China - who are turning to Linux. About the bunch of governments slowly migrating to Linux. About the smart/netbook boom. About companies looking to cut their IT-costs and turning to Free Software (something they will understand), but hesitant to say they use Linux in public. And talk about costs. Is it cheap to develop for Linux, compared to Mac / Windows? Are there more Linux than Mac users? (No one can tell anyway, but a valid question). If they write an app for Ubuntu, will it work for everyone who uses Linux? How often does Ubuntu update - and if it does, do they need to rewrite their app? How much time will it cost them to develop their program for Linux? How fast is the marketshare of Linux growing? Who can help them writing a Linux-app? Will developers help them for free (can they leech while making Linux-software)? Those questions need to be addressed before anything will happen. True - there are other tactics (there always are), like posting articles to every Linux-site asking users to send mail to certain TomTom e-mail adresses, or finding out who their shareholders are and talk to them how TomTom misses a potential market about the size of 5% of their current market. But the above is more polite and will probably be the most effective. |
| jdixon Aug 19, 2009 11:55 AM EDT |
> JD, here's a link to a dictionar I'm well aware of your definition, KT, I just don't agree with it, for the reasons I already noted. Though if I take your argument to be using defintion 4 rather than definition 2, it makes a lot more sense, and is probably perfectly in line with TomTom's wishes. Oh, but there I go with harsh language again, don't I? Oh well, phrases about heat and kitchens come to mind. |
| tuxchick Aug 19, 2009 12:08 PM EDT |
Hans, what you're saying is we need to do their work for them, just like lazzurs said. Market research, sales, and development. Me, I'm tired of hearing it because it shifts the responsibility to customers, which IMO is bogus. Especially in this year of 2009, in which Linux is years past being some weird thing that nobody knows about. It's mainstream now. Customers across all tech arenas have been clamoring for interop from the beginning of computers, so this is not news either. Hardware vendors have been happily taking our money for years without giving us the same value as Windows users. Mac users get the shaft, Unix users get shafted, everyone gets the shaft except Microsoft. Forget nice, some good loud clamor is overdue. BTW, the 'too many Linuxes' argument has been addressed several times recently. Do we need to debunk it yet again? |
| montezuma Aug 19, 2009 12:19 PM EDT |
Yeah TC right on! How about a law that mandates cross platform support as a consumer protection for hardware above a certain value? That would cause the DC lobbyists to go berserk: "Oh you are interfering with the free market..." "Oh how can the US compete with such onerous regulations..." Whine Whine Whine Personally I think such a law would force some much needed competition. Between Windows and Mac and between those two and linux. Consumers have rights too /rant |
| lcafiero Aug 19, 2009 12:35 PM EDT |
Um . . . I don't know whether this has been brought up, and I don't know if it's a difference between American English and Rest-of-the-World English, but . . . Leach (a verb) means to percolate or seep. Leech (a noun) is any bloodsucking or carnivorous aquatic or terrestrial worm of the class Hirudinea, certain freshwater species of which were formerly much used in medicine for bloodletting. So is TomTom percolating or seeping, or are they a bloodsucking or carnivorous etc.? Seems like from the article, they're the latter. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion, which is already in progress. |
| Scott_Ruecker Aug 19, 2009 1:22 PM EDT |
Thank You Larry, I fixed the Title in reference to your explanation of the word, sorry about that. |
| jdixon Aug 19, 2009 2:44 PM EDT |
> WAY TO GO VERIZON Having dealt with Verizon for years (but only for a while longer, as they're in the process of selling off their old phone lines). I wouldn't have expected anything else. > I don't know whether this has been brought up... In the other thread, yes. |
| tracyanne Aug 19, 2009 5:37 PM EDT |
Thank you Larry, the miss spelling is a Tracyism akin to Dyslexia. @TC Quoting:Somebody somewheres, I lost track in all the threads, said TA should have read the box since supposedly it says "supports Windows and Mac" only. In point of fact Carla, it never occurred to me that a Linux company would not bother supporting Linux users. So like every Mac and Windows user out there, who also never bother checking the website to see if their system is compatible with the device (any device from any manufacturer that is) , and only go to the website when they have to download something, I went out and purchased the device, I was told by the nice salesman that they get very few complaints about the device, in comparison to the other devices of the same type. It was only after I had unpacked the device and then gone to their website to download the maps and other updates that I discovered that TomTom are NOT a Linux company, that they are in fact NOT even a Linux friendly company, and after contacting their "support" desk that they don't appear to even give a rats about Linux users. Also it doesn't mention any operating System on the box, at least not the box my device came in. It states clearly on one side underneath a drawing of a computer and what must be the TomTom device. Quoting:TomTom Home Everything you need to keep your TomTom ONE upt to date - get new software, download new maps, access free content from the TomTom community. the above text is aligned center. It makes no mention of Windows or Linux or Mac. Obviously though Linux users are not considered part of that community, as there is no way for them to become part of it, as there is no TomTom Home for Linux.. There is also a similar drawing on the top cover of the box with the words "TomTom HOME" under it. Those are the only references to TomTom Home. The assumptions are clear, Linux users are non entities. We are not welcome. We are not even an after thought. |
| jacog Aug 20, 2009 4:24 AM EDT |
Well, if I am ever in the martket for a GPS I will give them a miss. Which I am not. Down here in "Africa" we find our way the old fashioned way, by tracking, tasting the dung of animals and stopping to feel the wind. Yup yup, that's me. Finding Microsoft headquarters for example requires one to be able to identify its foul stench. |
| jdixon Aug 20, 2009 7:22 AM EDT |
> Finding Microsoft headquarters for example requires one to be able to identify its foul stench. Well, that makes it fairly easy then, doesn't it. :) |
| hkwint Aug 20, 2009 4:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:Hans, what you're saying is we need to do their work for them, just like lazzurs said. Market research, sales, and development. No, that's not what I said. Or at least not what I intended. Only the market research, not sales or development. And the market research doesn't have to be big or professional; because that's indeed their job. I'm not paid nor educated to be a market researcher (though 'tech analyst' doesn't seem to need education - proven by Enderle et all). Some pointers would suffice. Most of them are probably in my favourites, or only a few clicks away. I'm not good at business yada-yada, but someone has to try I suppose. I'll try to write a nice letter and see if they respond. Heck, I'd better write the letter just right now because in 10 minutes I'll probably find something else to do and forget all about it. |
| hkwint Aug 20, 2009 4:22 PM EDT |
TomTom doesn't support Linux indeed: Their 'extranet' (for press) tells me my browser is not supported and I can't login, both not with Opera or Firefox. How stupid is that? UserAgent does the trick though. Another thing to mention in the letter. |
| Sander_Marechal Aug 20, 2009 4:27 PM EDT |
Hans, what extranet? I found a big press and analyst section on their website and I could read all of it using Iceweasel. |
| hkwint Aug 20, 2009 4:38 PM EDT |
extranet.tomtom.com that would be. |
| tracyanne Aug 20, 2009 5:14 PM EDT |
TomTom "The smart choice in personal navigation" only support Internet Explorer and Safari. How many more hints do you need. TomTom, who use Linux and Free Open Source Software, don't want Linux users. Quoting:Login is prevented for this browser. For Windows computers this website supports Internet Explorer version 6.0 and higher. For Apple computers this website supports Safari 2.0 and higher. Please visit http://www.microsoft.com for free downloads of the latest Internet Explorer version or visit http://www.apple.com for free downloads of the latest Safari version. TomTom obviously want nothing to do with Linux users. They don't hold Linux users in contempt. as far as TomTom are concerned Linux users are beneath contempt. We are the ultimate non entity where they are concerned. I suppose I should count myself lucky I can even access the "support" pages. The best response is to not just boycott them, it is what I suggested at the start. Actively dissuade people from buying their products. How many mre hints do you need to understand they are leeches. For those interested. the server that is serving up this insult, is an Apache Web Server (Version 2.0.52), and the underlying OS is Red Hat. |
| softwarejanitor Aug 20, 2009 5:28 PM EDT |
@tracyanne Well, that does it... you've successfully dissuaded me from considering a TomTom product for my GPS purchases. And I will likely be recommending whatever brand I do end up buying to whoever asks as well. |
| mrider Aug 20, 2009 6:03 PM EDT |
So let me get this straight: * Their server O.S. is Red Hat. * According to lazzurs (in the other thread), they use Linux in their internal infrastructure. * According to lazzurs (in the other thread), at least some employees use Linux as their desktop environment. * After all that, it's impossible to go to one of their web pages WITHOUT using (or faking that you use) a browser which is not supported in Linux. Words fail me. |
| tracyanne Aug 20, 2009 6:19 PM EDT |
Not only the above mrider, but....Quoting:Dear Ms , That to me is as good as saying, you use Linux, You should have not bothered buying our product, because we won't support you. Or, to put it another way, if you insist on using Linux, we don't want your money. |
| mrider Aug 20, 2009 6:44 PM EDT |
Yeah, I caught that. But thanks for repeating it, the thread is getting pretty long. :P My point was that they use Linux on at least one server. They use Linux on at least some of their workstations (at least according lazzurs). And yet they can't even create HTML that works in something other than I.E. or Safari? I mean not supporting the very O.S. they use on their devices is flame-worthy enough, and would be sufficient to drive me elsewhere. But they can't even be ****ed to write CSS for alternative browsers? What a load of fetid dingoes kidneys. It's a safe bet I won't be buying anything from them... |
| caitlyn Aug 20, 2009 6:46 PM EDT |
Somebody read/watched/listened to Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy at least once too often. Dingoes kidneys? |
| mrider Aug 20, 2009 6:52 PM EDT |
Well, what I _actually_ want to post would get me booted from here for sure. ;) (And yeah, I'm a huge fan of Douglas Adams...) |
| hkwint Aug 20, 2009 7:00 PM EDT |
TA: You really need to post links to Microsoft and Apple on our forum? Ahem. Anyway, I just sent my very kind letter to Mr. Johnston by e-mail. I really hope he answers my mail, otherwise I'd have to go through all the hassle of finding their physical address, sending a registered letter and bugging their Senior Product Manager of Consumer devices. |
| jdixon Aug 20, 2009 7:43 PM EDT |
> ....sending a registered letter and bugging their Senior Product Manager of Consumer devices. At moderate time and expense to yourself, so that they can increase their market share? You're nicer than I would be Hans. Of course, that's already been demonstrated on this very thread. |
| hkwint Aug 20, 2009 7:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:At moderate time and expense to yourself, so that they can increase their market share? Free Software advocates are the only poor advocates I guess. |
| jezuch Aug 21, 2009 2:16 AM EDT |
Quoting:That to me is as good as saying, you use Linux, You should have not bothered buying our product, because we won't support you. Have you tried demanding a refund? |
| tracyanne Aug 21, 2009 2:34 AM EDT |
Quoting:Have you tried demanding a refund? Yes. That was when they told me it's my fault for not going to their website first. Unfortunately for me. I, like probably every Windows amd mac user, bought the device first, then went to their website. There was nothing on the box the device came in that suggested that it would not support linux, and i had read that they are a Linux company... well at least that's the impression I gained. So I went out and purchased the device. Of course the Windows and Mac users don't need to go to the website first. |
| penguinist Aug 21, 2009 6:24 AM EDT |
Quoting:they told me it's my fault for not going to their website first Ummm, but their website blocks Linux users. |
| hkwint Aug 21, 2009 7:19 AM EDT |
No, it doesn't, that's only their extranet. You can view all product information available on their site with probably any browser supporting Javascript and Flash. |
| tracyanne Aug 21, 2009 8:06 AM EDT |
what hk said. The catch 22 is that if you are a Windows or Mac user, you don't need to go to their website to check to see if you OS is compatible. |
| caitlyn Aug 21, 2009 10:19 AM EDT |
Quoting:No, it doesn't, that's only their extranet. You can view all product information available on their site with probably any browser supporting Javascript and Flash. You can also have Firefox (with a plugin) or Opera report that you are running IE on Windows and then get to the extranet as well. It may be annoying that you have to fool their code to do that but if we're really honest about it they aren't blocking anything for a user who is at all sophisticated. |
| softwarejanitor Aug 21, 2009 11:56 AM EDT |
@tracyanne When the MS suit against TomTom was first in the news I considered buying one to support them... But given how they folded under pressure and they don't actually support Linux, I'm sure glad I didn't. I can understand why you are pissed; they are not only so unhelpful, their tone is almost nasty. "Kind Regards" indeed. |
| hkwint Aug 22, 2009 11:08 AM EDT |
Quoting:You can also have Firefox (with a plugin) or Opera report that you are running IE on Windows and then get to the extranet as well Nope, tested that and page loading 'stalls' with FF3.5, and clicking the links doesn't work. |
| tracyanne Aug 22, 2009 6:39 PM EDT |
Well I did manage to register, or, at least got through the registration process, after I set FF3.5.2 to report that it is IE7 on Windows Vista. That one must go to such lengths to use a FOSS browser, running on Linux, to access the registration page of a website that is being served on an Apache Webserver running on top of a Linux Server (Red Hat) speaks volumes about TomTom's intentions regardsing Linux. One would have had to deliberately build the pages to be FF on Linux unfriendly. Indeed the message I posted earlier, states that you have to be running IE, when on Windows. |
| hkwint Aug 22, 2009 7:34 PM EDT |
Quoting:One would have had to deliberately build the pages to be FF on Linux unfriendly. Please note, AFAICT, that's no fault of TomTom. The TomTom website is accessible with 'almost any browser' (including Lynx; just tested it). What happened here, is they bought a pre-made "advertizing solution" from a company called Adnovate. And the solution Adnovate is selling them, is not compatible with Firefox. I'm pretty sure TomTom is probably not even aware of this. Yes, it's stupid they bought something which doesn't work with FireFox, they are responsible. But it's more stupid Adnovate is selling such a solution - given their emphasis on the European market where Firefox market share is ~1/3 , IMHO. TA: I'm not sure if you noted, but you don't had to register to access the site. "Login" details were "publicly" supplied elsewhere on the TomTom site, but I don't think it's polite to repeat the login they gave over here. Anyway, I received an 'out of office' reply from Mr. Johnston meaning I won't receive a reply before Tuesday. ed: wait, did I just say "the solution Adnovate is selling them, is not compatible with Firefox."? Well, yesterday that was true, but today it just works with Firefox, though the 'loading' animation still 'hangs' it seems. |
| tracyanne Aug 22, 2009 8:17 PM EDT |
I still get the following message when I attempt to acess it with FF on LinuxQuoting:Login is prevented for this browser. For Windows computers this website supports Internet Explorer version 6.0 and higher. For Apple computers this website supports Safari 2.0 and higher. Please visit vvww.microsoft.com for free downloads of the latest Internet Explorer version or visit vvww.apple.com for free downloads of the latest Safari version. |
| softwarejanitor Aug 22, 2009 11:29 PM EDT |
@hkwint "I'm pretty sure TomTom is probably not even aware of this." If they aren't, then it is an absolute verification that they are not "a linux company". If they know about it and don't do something about it, then it is an absolute verification that they are not "a linux company". Either way... it doesn't look good for them. |
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