Following The KDE4 Debacle's Footsteps
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| helios Aug 04, 2009 12:15 AM EDT |
Oh that's right...take some silly little cosmetic quirk, release it as a news story and wait for the congratulatory celebration to begin. You didn't learn anything from KDE did you? Might wanna start thinking about improving the functionality of the brick you call Nautilus. How about some right click options for back and forward for starters? How about moveto and copyto availability without having to hunt down some obscure script somewhere and trying to find an invisible file folder to move it into? And you wonder why new users clog your forums with repetitive questions... Developers, Developers, Developers... KDE just trotted out a brainless beauty queen for us to watch slowly, painfully mature and guess what? They lost legion of users over it. That includes me. I knew history repeated itself, but d@mn ...have the sense to wait just a while for SOME people to forget... h |
| dinotrac Aug 04, 2009 7:41 AM EDT |
Amen to that. What is it with developers having no sense of responsibility? One benefit of working on a well-known project like KDE or GNOME is geek-cred and fame. The project is big and important, so you are contributing to (and know for contributing to) something big and important. Trouble -- all of those users also create a responsibility. Treat them badly, and you'll have the wrong kind of fame, the kind KDE developers have accrued in the last year or so. |
| caitlyn Aug 05, 2009 12:17 PM EDT |
I'm running KDE4.2.4 on a distro I've been playing with for a few weeks for a review I'm writing. You know what? It isn't bad at all. It's matured to the point where it is very usable. Some people (most?) HATE change. KDE4 doesn't look like or act like KDE3 by default so people hate it. I never was a KDE4 hater. The problem with the early releases was that a lot of functionality was missing. Most of it is back now but the default look and feel (which you can change, of course) is still different so KDE4 is still hated. |
| gus3 Aug 05, 2009 12:57 PM EDT |
Quoting:Some people (most?) HATE change.Unless Microsoft tells them to like it. Yes, a lot of people woke up to reality with the Vista debacle, but a lot didn't. |
| caitlyn Aug 05, 2009 1:31 PM EDT |
Fair comment, gus3. The point, of course, is people will hate GNOME3 because it's different. If the GNOME developers decided to go based on their fears of repeating KDE4 then that would have been unfortunate. Trying to come up with a new Linux desktop paradigm, one that is uncluttered and decidedly not a Windows or Mac clone, doesn't sound bad to me. So... I guess I don't see this the way Helios does. I'll consider it a repeat of the KDE4 debacle if they release a half-baked desktop that isn't ready for prime time. If they release something different and people don't like it because they resist change that isn't a debacle. That's not getting stuck in a rut or playing to people's phobias. |
| Steven_Rosenber Aug 05, 2009 1:44 PM EDT |
Looks like the tide is turning on KDE 4. I've seen and heard a lot of positive reviews of it. I respect the project's willingness to take such a leap (including moving to QT4). |
| jdixon Aug 05, 2009 1:52 PM EDT |
> The problem with the early releases was that a lot of functionality was missing. Most of it is back now... And how many months has it been since the release of KDE 4.0? I don't really like to criticize folks, but Dino is right. They blew it. Let's hope that the Gnome folks realize that full functionality is required before you call it ready for prime time. |
| tuxchick Aug 05, 2009 2:07 PM EDT |
Wow, talk about holding a grudge. Better demand a refund right now. Or better yet, string up the KDE devs and never ever forgive them for anything ever. That'll learn 'em. |
| Steven_Rosenber Aug 05, 2009 2:08 PM EDT |
The nice thing about the KDE3 to 4 transition was that most distros offered both for quite a long time. |
| jdixon Aug 05, 2009 2:33 PM EDT |
> Wow, talk about holding a grudge. Nope. I use XFCE. :) |
| dinotrac Aug 05, 2009 3:00 PM EDT |
Caitlyn - It's easy to deflect badness by blaming people for not liking it. The KDE 4 folks screwed up badly, plain and simple. Fortunately, things seem to be turning around, at much cost and angst. |
| gus3 Aug 05, 2009 3:11 PM EDT |
Quoting:Or better yet, string up the KDE devs and never ever forgive them for anything ever.I'll bring the tar and feathers! |
| dinotrac Aug 05, 2009 3:35 PM EDT |
tc - You don't need to hold a grudge to say that the KDE folks blew it. They did, and it's why I don't use KDE any more. Doesn't mean I'll never use KDE any more, because I don't hold a grudge, however... the next major project that gets this nasty developers' disease (after Mozilla and KDE and I don't know how many others in between) needs to know that it's A BAD THING!!!! BTW -- I don't hold a grudge against the Mozilla folks, either, even though they ceded the browser space to IE. After all, what harm did that ever do? Sure am glad the Firefox folks came by to pick up the worthy pieces that came out of Mozilla, though. |
| tuxchick Aug 05, 2009 3:45 PM EDT |
I'm so glad you don't hold grudges, dino, I was worried there for a moment. |
| mortenalver Aug 05, 2009 4:49 PM EDT |
But, does every discussion about KDE 4 have to turn into an argument about whether the KDE devs screwed up? This makes me think that probably every discussion about Gnome 3 will end up the same way. |
| caitlyn Aug 05, 2009 4:49 PM EDT |
Probably. |
| bigg Aug 05, 2009 4:54 PM EDT |
> does every discussion about KDE 4 have to turn into an argument about whether the KDE devs screwed up That is a likely outcome given that they screwed up big time, and that's about the only thing there is to talk about. There are not a lot of conversations about software that does what it's supposed to do. |
| TxtEdMacs Aug 05, 2009 5:01 PM EDT |
dino, Clarification, please. What do you mean when you say: Quoting:I don't hold a grudge against the Mozilla folks, either, even though they ceded the browser space to IE.Are you referring to Netscape or do you mean the integrated browser / email program Mozilla (whose inheritance has been passed to Seamonkey)? If it is the former, Mozilla was not to blame, that was the work of Netscape Communications Corporation. If the latter, the battle had been lost, this product was the first step in trying to combat IE hegemony. Just askin, YBT |
| tuxchick Aug 05, 2009 5:10 PM EDT |
mortenalver, the alternative would be to talk about how this was a complete rewrite, and how the devs have hung in there and continued to work on it and improve it with every release despite incessant bitching from whiners who act like this was a giant betrayal and their lives are ruined. And talking about how, despite suffering some seriously vicious and twisted attacks, the KDE devs stuck to the high road and did not retaliate in kind. (For an example of low-road PR, see how Joss Mouette, Jo Shields, and Lefty Schlesinger respond to Mono critics.) The alternative would be to talk about how KDE 3.5 is still maintained and supported in several major distros like PCLinuxOS. And to remind ourselves that KDE4.x is about 18 months old and already near final release, with hundreds of apps ported over and desktop feature set nearly complete. That's darn near miraculous. So yeah, I guess there isn't anything to talk about except how much they suck, and how a little bit of graciousness and support are simply not allowed. |
| tracyanne Aug 05, 2009 5:24 PM EDT |
Well Caitlyn, I'm still not happy with KDE4, it still feels restrictive and clunky to use, and i still have no use for the glorified desktop icons or plasmoids. If the GNOME using distributions dump everyone into a non functional GNOME 3 desktop the way the KDE using distributions did with KDE4 then I reckon I'll raise bloody murder over that too. It's all well and good that we have development like this going on, but I had to cope with users upgrading to a an almost non functional desktop, after I'd spent collectively a lot of time getting them bedded in with the differences from Windows. I've now got most of my users moved to GNOME and Ubuntu, so I reckon if the GNOME thing is done the same way as the KDE4 debacle, the scream will be heard at the other end of the internet. |
| jdixon Aug 05, 2009 7:23 PM EDT |
> ...does every discussion about KDE 4 have to turn into an argument about whether the KDE devs screwed up? No, but since this one started that way, I don't see the problem. > I guess there isn't anything to talk about except how much they suck, What sucks was calling it KDE 4.0, when it's only with 4.2 that it's become usable as a replacement for 3.5. Yeah, I know the arguments on both sides, but I think the reaction to KDE 4 sends a rather clear message as to which ones are right and which ones aren't. |
| Steven_Rosenber Aug 05, 2009 7:27 PM EDT |
A point-0 (.0) release is just that ... don't expect miracles (or basic functionality). |
| jdixon Aug 05, 2009 7:43 PM EDT |
> ...don't expect miracles (or basic functionality). That's not the standard to which FOSS has traditionally held itself. That's what we expect from Microsoft, not FOSS projects. If the best we can do is only as good as Microsoft, what's the point? |
| dinotrac Aug 05, 2009 9:13 PM EDT |
TC - No. The KDE devs absolutely deserve credit for hanging in there and digging out of the hole they dug for themselves. With luck, that will be the lasting legacy of the original screwup, but... Proprietary software companies have been destroyed by less. We can't ask people to take free software seriously if developers insist on treating it as a plaything. We can only be grateful that Microsoft forgot all about Internet Explorer for a few years there, or we might all be depending on The Internet, by Microsoft. |
| tuxchick Aug 05, 2009 10:45 PM EDT |
No dino, the KDE4 flamers blew it. It was all overblown, and all those mobs should be ashamed of themselves for spewing so much bile. I believe that some of it was an orchestrated attack, which turbocharged the usual and ordinary asshattery. As near as I can tell, the real complaint is 'they said 4.0 was beta when it was really alpha, or worse!' And they're still mad. Like, get over it already. How bumpy a transition was it in real life? Well, we still have 3.5, nobody took that away. So what's the big crime here? Um...well...but they said it was beta and it wasn't... Who forced them to try 4.x, or get rid of 3.5? Um...well...um...What's the FOSS motto? "Release early, release often". Yes but....but... Everything in Linux is a constant state of flux. In the past 5-6 years or so: -along came udev, hal, hotplug, and sys -USB and firewire -wireless stack completely rewritten -Xorg is still undergoing major overhaul -new wireless protocols -SELinux -IDE subsystem replaced by SCSI/SATA -new filesystems -PCI-e -virtualization thingies -audio overhaul -replace init with upstart And more I can't remember right now. A lot of it still doesn't work right. So why single out KDE for extra venom? There wasn't just criticism of KDE, it was napalmed. And the griping continues over long-ago sins. Gawdlmighty, what are the KDE team supposed to do, commit hara-kiri? A nice blood sacrifice to appease the mobs. I wouldn't worry about Free software being taken seriously when its supposed supporters act like wingnuts, who would even notice the software when all those flaming torches are in the way? The other unofficial FOSS slogan is "we will end no whine before its time." I'm used to that. This went far beyond beyond the usual and customary griping. It was a serious attack. |
| caitlyn Aug 05, 2009 11:08 PM EDT |
I wrote a blog piece which has been picked up by all the major Linux portal sites. (Yes, tc, yours was first :) I expected serious flaming. Why? I dared criticize a distro. Some people like that distro. I must be an idiot if I find fault with it. The worst was on tuxmachines.org. Two commenters there simply lacked reading comprehension, or at least decided to find isolated bits they didn't like and the flamethrowers were on. (See: http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/38662 if you're curious.) I'm used to it by now. Every Linux writer I respect, everyone with solid knowledge and keen insight, gets this treatment. It's to be expected nowadays. It started with Slashdot, I think, and spread out from there. Without going off into a TOS violation I'll say that it isn't just Linux and KDE. Civil discourse seems to be a lost art. Facts are things to be ignored if they don't fit someone's agenda. Shout over the opposition, engage in name calling and maybe even a little character assassination. People seem to believe that's the way to win an argument nowadays. It's truly sad. What tuxchick describes is a symptom of a larger problem. |
| gus3 Aug 05, 2009 11:15 PM EDT |
Quoting:A lot of it still doesn't work right.The stuff in the Linux kernel that's still undergoing heavy development and testing is usually marked "EXPERIMENTAL" in the kernel config. It's possible to build a release-quality 2.6.30.4 kernel, that leaves out the experimental stuff. As for the hardware stuff in flux, that comes with the vagaries of new hardware capabilities. PCI-e, virtualization, hotplug... Are we supposed to demand that Linux run on older hardware only? |
| gus3 Aug 05, 2009 11:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:Shout over the opposition, engage in name calling and maybe even a little character assassination.Only a TOTALLY POMPOUS TWIT would accuse me of that!!!!1! |
| dinotrac Aug 05, 2009 11:24 PM EDT |
Caitlyn amd TC - Last I looked, civil discourse does not require running from the truth, or even agreeing on what the truth may be. As to all of the flux -- I think you see a lot of people getting upset over that, but you don't see all of those changes affecting users up close and personal. The kernel may be geek stardom, but applications are the hardest hurdle to overcome. Applications -- and I will extend the definition a bit to include the desktop environments -- are how users develop a relationship with their computers, and they are not to be messed with lightly. Change was not the problem with KDE4. Taking change lightly was. |
| tuxchick Aug 05, 2009 11:59 PM EDT |
Quoting: Are we supposed to demand that Linux run on older hardware only? No gus, constant change in tech is how it's going to be for a long time. The industry is still a baby. I think that KDE4 got singled out for special, and extra-toxic, attention. dino, you're working awfully hard to defend inexcusably nasty behavior. I'd hate to see the reaction to a real change, one where they had no choice. Where is there to go after wasting a nuclear tantrum on nothing? *edit* That's a good point about the desktop being more personal and touching more users. Not a good excuse, but definitely a good point. |
| caitlyn Aug 06, 2009 12:15 AM EDT |
Quoting:Only a TOTALLY POMPOUS TWIT would accuse me of that!!!!1! LOL! The only time I mentioned you in this thread was to agree with you. Feeling a might bit oversensitive, are we? Yes... I got the joke! |
| caitlyn Aug 06, 2009 12:18 AM EDT |
dino: I don't think anyone took change lightly. I do think KDE 4.0 should have been called 3.9.x and the 4.x should have waited until the product was a bit more functional. That would have avoided some misunderstanding and bad press. I think a lot of what we have seen is lynch mob mentality. I think that is what tc is complaining about. As I remember tc didn't like KDE 4 and maybe still doesn't. She hasn't been meek in her criticism either. She just recognizes when things get out of hand and become decidedly unfair. I honestly like KDE 4.2.4. It probably will never be my main DE of choice for the same reason KDE 3.5.x wasn't. It consumes way too many CPU cycles and too much memory for my taste. I get most everything I need from a lighter environment like Xfce, my current favorite. I will fully admit that KDE is much prettier than Xfce, though and probably more intuitive as well. |
| penguinista99 Aug 06, 2009 3:37 AM EDT |
"KDE just trotted out a brainless beauty queen for us to watch slowly, painfully mature,,," Personally, I think that is a brilliantly worded analogy, maybe a bit sharply written, but then again look at the author. I spent an hour or so with Ken at Linux Against Poverty and we stood at the bar with his laptop and did a comparison between features of 3.5.x and 4.2.2. Even helios, who I understand has been a part-time critic has stated that he is beginning to warm to it. He has it as a choice when he boots now. Fact is, had we not had that conversation, I would not have went home and given it another try. He said that Mandriva posts about the best rendition of 4.x and I agree. The Kubuntu presentation of KDE4 had me running for the exit. I think it's funny that we both found the mouse gestures in konqueror still don't work. He probably spends tons of time in the file manager so that's probably important to him. Most people don't know they exist there. Great minds think alike...so do disturbed ones. Michael |
| jdixon Aug 06, 2009 7:01 AM EDT |
> Shout over the opposition, engage in name calling and maybe even a little character assassination. The fora reflect society as a whole. Politics is a prime example. It's exactly what you described, and both sides are guilty. > I do think KDE 4.0 should have been called 3.9.x and the 4.x should have waited until the product was a bit more functional. That would have solved most of the problems, yes. And it's been standard FOSS practice for years. Why the KDE developers chose to do otherwise is beyond me. |
| dinotrac Aug 06, 2009 12:26 PM EDT |
TC -- To be clear -- I've seen a lot of things that I wouldn't approve of. The truth is powerful, but not powerful enough to make being a jackass acceptable. There is such a thing as criticizing without crucifying But... I've also seen a lot of "Gee, you just don't like change" and "But it's a gift to the community" comments, too. The truth, as usual, is in the middle, and... The KDE guys deserve kudos for handling the storm (mostly) with a certain grace and level-headedness. Doesn't mean we shouldn't digest the lessons to be learned. |
| gus3 Aug 06, 2009 12:29 PM EDT |
@dino: Some say the sun rises in the east. Some say the sun rises in the west. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. |
| bigg Aug 06, 2009 12:35 PM EDT |
> There is such a thing as criticizing without crucifying FOSS is about good software. It's not about taking something of low quality due to the developer pay structure. Low quality is unacceptable in any and all circumstances. If you don't want feedback, don't distribute it and waste anyone else's time. FOSS is better because it is at least as good as the alternative plus it has the added, very valuable feature that it is Free. |
| dinotrac Aug 06, 2009 12:50 PM EDT |
gus - Some others say the sun doesn't rise at all, but that the rotation of the earth on it's access brings the sun into view. Not that I believe them. |
| dinotrac Aug 06, 2009 12:51 PM EDT |
bigg - And can you tell what about good software requires one to be a jack@ss? |
| tuxchick Aug 06, 2009 12:52 PM EDT |
I saw a moonrise when the plumber was here. |
| gus3 Aug 06, 2009 12:57 PM EDT |
@dino: Actually, according to Einstein, they're both correct. |
| dinotrac Aug 06, 2009 1:18 PM EDT |
gus3 - The only thing that matters is whether the bread is rising in the yeast... |
| TxtEdMacs Aug 06, 2009 1:30 PM EDT |
Actually gus, Einstein did not like quantum mechanics, because it could break causality. Superposition of states is quantum mechanics NOT relativity. [serious] But as always, YBT |
| gus3 Aug 06, 2009 3:07 PM EDT |
Not what I meant. What is the speed of light in a vacuum? No matter your reference point, it's always c. Those who are capable of matrix math can transform the Earth's rotation into the universe rotating around the Earth. http://www.xkcd.com/123/ |
| caitlyn Aug 06, 2009 3:24 PM EDT |
Quoting:The only thing that matters is whether the bread is rising in the yeast... Mmmm.... bread. |
| theboomboomcars Aug 06, 2009 4:56 PM EDT |
Quoting:Mmmm.... bread.Bread is definitely in the top 10 of yummy foods, unless it is yucky bread. |
| caitlyn Aug 06, 2009 5:28 PM EDT |
...or stale bread. Although some stale bread can be resurrected by heating it in the oven or toasting it or turning it into French Toast or croutons. ...unless it's moldy bread. That is yucky. Fresh bread is fantastic. It takes real effort (usually weird ingredients) to make it yucky. --- Are we far enough off topic yet? :) |
| bigg Aug 06, 2009 7:25 PM EDT |
> And can you tell what about good software requires one to be a jack@ss? Nothing. That's just my personality. From what I've seen, most of the criticism has taken the form of Ken's original post. It's not like the debates about mono. Given the millions of KDE users obviously you are going to get some inappropriate comments, not unlike the criticism of a professional sports team by the local fans. |
| dinotrac Aug 06, 2009 7:46 PM EDT |
bigg - Yes. Most of the criticism I've seen has been utterly civil -- which does not exclude annoyance and passion. The others? Screw them. Oops -- That wasn't very civil of me. Fortunately, nobody relies on me to be a role model! ;0) |
| TxtEdMacs Aug 06, 2009 8:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:Fortunately, nobody relies on me to be a role model!Untrue. However, to keep the discussion civil and damping down the invective I will not inform you how I use you. Nonetheless, I advise on those days when you suffer a sudden onset of total body arthritis attack you pay it no heed.. Tomorrow your joints will be working fine. YBT |
| dinotrac Aug 06, 2009 10:12 PM EDT |
MBT - I cower. |
| tuxchick Aug 06, 2009 10:33 PM EDT |
I think you mean roll modle, looser. |
| dinotrac Aug 07, 2009 7:22 AM EDT |
TC -- In light of the forum topic, I stand Koreckted. |
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