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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| kt Jul 06, 2009 1:37 PM EDT |
That's a nice little story. Now, sit on this pile: Dell offers: Mini10v (base settings: price $299, HD 120 GB, CPU Atom 1.6 GHz, 1GB RAM, monitor 10.1"...) -- NO Ubuntu option Mini10 (base settings: price $349, HD 160 GB, CPU Atom 1.3 GHz, 1GB RAM, monitor 10.1"...) -- WITH Ubuntu option The difference: 10v has a faster CPU, less storage, no Ubuntu option. This means that Americans have to pay $50 more for a slower CPU and a slightly bigger HD (40 GB more). That is puzzling when there are 1 TB HDs for $90. For the sake of simplicity, let's say that the slower CPU is compensated with a larger HD. So the machines have the same value. So, if an American resident wants a Mini10 with Ubuntu, the poor thing has to pay $50 more than for the same machine with Windows (Mini10v -- see previous paragraph). MS should be shuffling cups on the streets -- they are good at it. Well, anyway, that's the only option they have left. Shuffle, baby, shuffle ... http://www.dell.com/us/en/home/notebooks/laptop-inspiron-10/... |
| caitlyn Jul 06, 2009 3:24 PM EDT |
...and Dell is one of the most Linux friendly manufacturers out there. They actually claim to have significant Linux sales. People wonder why you can't get an accurate count of Linux marketshare or why people would buy a Windows box simply to wipe the hard drive and install Linux. |
| tracyanne Jul 06, 2009 5:02 PM EDT |
Interesting. The 8 Gig SSD must be the same price as the 160 gig HD.because I can do a Linux powered netbook with exactly the same spec as a Windows powered netbook for $50 less than the Windows powered netbook. The price difference is the lincense fee for Wndows XP home at the special price Microsoft charge for XP home on a netbook. Obviously the DELL options are to hide the fact that Windows is actually a more expensive option. Actually it's $55 more as I have to add 10% for GST, and another $7.70 if they want a Recovery CD. |
| hkwint Jul 06, 2009 6:23 PM EDT |
Dell has a problem. Microsoft doesn't allow them to create demand. Offering the very same laptop both with Windows and with Ubuntu is creating demand, especially if the Ubuntu one is cheaper. Not offering systems without Windows would be another problem. Just look at the Ideastorm stats: * 103k people demand for laptops without software * 52k people ask to ship Linux worldwide * 101k people ask for choice between Linux distro's * 114k people ask for pre-installed OOo * 71k people ask for computers without additional software If they ignore those numbers, someone would certainly think Microsoft is the one making decisions for Dell, and FTC would scrutinize them. However, by offering a crappy Linux-line of products (crappy because it's hard to find them, they're not advertised, they still recommend Vista, and because of the Linux-system always differing from the Windows offer), they can say they 'conservatively' answer to the existing demand (or the demand that existed three years ago). However, creating demand instead of answering to demand would earn them much more money. The Eee already showed this: It was devised as a means of answering to the demand of the OLPC-users, but turned out to create a much larger demand in an entire different market segment. As far as I can tell, Dell is about the most conservative company I know, or someone is stopping them when it comes to creating demand instead of answering to the demand that existed three years ago. |
| kt Jul 06, 2009 7:13 PM EDT |
In this case, Dell is not only failing to create demand for Ubuntu machines, but Dell is also killing demand for Ubuntu machines -- the same hardware value machine with Windows actually has a lower price. However, for me (and also for countless others) 1.6 GHz +120 GB for $299 has more value than 1.3 GHz+160GB for $349. Why would Dell want to kill Ubuntu when Dell actually makes efforts to promote it? Such behavior is schizophrenic. I'm sure Dell (company) is not suffering from any mental illness. What is happening is that MS is in panic and, as I said, resorting to street tricks -- making people choose an empty cup. |
| tracyanne Jul 06, 2009 7:35 PM EDT |
Hang on when I looked at the dell site it was Ubuntu powered machine with 8Gig SSD for $199, windows powered mcahine with same spec, except 160 gig HD (instead of SSD) for $249 and Windows powered with Dual core Atom for $299. http://www1.euro.dell.com/uk/en/home/mini_laptop_deals/fs.as... |
| kt Jul 06, 2009 7:38 PM EDT |
tracyanne, follow this link to see what I'm talking about: http://www.dell.com/us/en/home/notebooks/laptop-inspiron-10/... |
| tracyanne Jul 06, 2009 8:33 PM EDT |
@kt they are all with Windows. I don't see a linux option. |
| hkwint Jul 06, 2009 8:49 PM EDT |
TA: You know 'Ubuntu' is synonym for Linux, don't you? Ahem. Hit the 'customize with Ubuntu' button. It's only displayed for the 2nd / 3rd laptop, not the 10v - as kt discussed in his earlier comments. |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 06, 2009 9:19 PM EDT |
I see customize button on the first laptop the Mini 10v. However, I have not discovered any way to actually select Ubuntu on either the first or second laptop option. There is only a help button to make the choice (supposedly) turns out to be information only unless I missed seeing another button selecting either option within that popup window. Weird. I just cannot get excited about Dell's or any other major laptop distributors' offerings. If I decide I must have another laptop, I will pay extra to a Linux shop or redo a used model myself. |
| jdixon Jul 06, 2009 9:55 PM EDT |
On the other hand, while Dell offers an Inspiron 15n for $299, the equivalent machine with Vista is $399. That's not a copletely fair comparison, as the Vista machine appears to have a larger hard drive and a slightly better processor, but since we're talking a Celeron processor, Vista is going to be dog slow, while Ubuntu will run fine. :) Oh, and the same machine with XP? $549. I think that tells you all you need to know about Vista. Linux machine: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=dncwzl... Vista machine: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=dndozm... XP machine: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=1... |
| tracyanne Jul 06, 2009 9:56 PM EDT |
I missed that bit, I only scanned the page. yes there is definately a bit of sleight of hand going on there. |
| tracyanne Jul 06, 2009 11:50 PM EDT |
Feral Penguin Computers can do a Linux Powered 7 inch net book for $AU420.00 a Windows powered machine (exact same hardware spec) will be $AU469.00 with XP home basic and $AU489 with Vista Home Basic. We will only be offering the Linux version, of course. a 10.1/10.2 inch with Linux will be $AU599.00 the Same hardware with XP Home Basic will be $AU648 and Vista Home Basic $Au668 Those prices include 1.6Gig Atom 1 Gig RAM Wireless and Camera the prices for XP and Vista Licenses are the special COA price Microsoft charges for UMPC and NETbook computers. if people want the disk it costs another $AU7.70 |
| kt Jul 07, 2009 12:15 AM EDT |
TxtEdMacs: "However, I have not discovered any way to actually select Ubuntu on either the first or second laptop option." If you press the "Customize with Ubuntu" button for Mini10, Ubuntu is automatically chosen for you and all you have to do is choose other components. A similar shuffle game is happening with Mini12. There they play with storage and warranty. Ubuntu machine there losses just slightly; still it loses and that's enough for an OS-indifferent shopper to make an unwise choice. If you are a developer working for MS, take my advice -- look for an exit. |
| caitlyn Jul 07, 2009 12:22 AM EDT |
Quoting:If you are a developer working for MS, take my advice -- look for an exit. Poor advice in this economy. MS tactics are insuring their continued market dominance and the continued employment of those developers. MS isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Most of the general public is indifferent or ignorant of their business practices and just plain isn't interested in the subject. Computer stores want to sell you proprietary software and such important tools as anti-virus and anti-spyware packages that sometiimes even work. They can't do that with an OS that doesn't need them. The profit margins on systems are generally very low. It's accessories and software where the money is made. That's a huge disincentive for them to sell Linux and a huge incentive to sell MS. Besides, they also want to sell you the services of whatever their equivalent of the Nerd Herd or McGenius is called. Those kids don't generally do Linux and if they do they are under strict orders to be quiet about it. |
| kt Jul 07, 2009 12:47 AM EDT |
"MS isn't going anywhere anytime soon. " That's why I'm saying "look for an exit", not "run for an exit". Plan your exit, think about it and, if you can, exit whenever possible. Titanic was also big and "unsinkable". MS is sinking. That's the unthinkable reality. Game Over. "That's a huge disincentive for them to sell Linux" -- last time I checked Linux was free. Computer stores will follow the trend, not the other way around. |
| caitlyn Jul 07, 2009 1:02 AM EDT |
Quoting:MS is sinking. That's the unthinkable reality. Game Over. You may believe that. I see absolutely no real evidence to support that view. I do see lots of articles and blog posts filled with wishful thinking. Quoting:"That's a huge disincentive for them to sell Linux" -- last time I checked Linux was free. Linux is free as in freedom. It often is not free as in no cost. Computer stores sell operating systems preloaded on computers. They also sell boxed operating systems. In the past that frequently included Linux distributions. Quoting: Computer stores will follow the trend, not the other way around. Computer stores will sell whatever makes a profit for them. They could care less about trends. Money talks and everything else walks. Right now computer stores see Linux as taking cash out of their pockets so they discourage it every way they can. There also is no mass trend among consumers towards mass adoption of Linux. I wish there was but there isn't as of yet. |
| kt Jul 07, 2009 1:29 AM EDT |
"You may believe that. I see absolutely no real evidence to support that view. I do see lots of articles and blog posts filled with wishful thinking." Game over -- that's just the matter of seeing two or three steps ahead. Evidence? I see demand from our customers for Linux desktop software, there is significant adoption of Linux in Government offices, schools and industrial facilities. You may know about more about it than I do. I don't want to go into this right now. Let me just say this: there is a hole in MS ship. "In the past that frequently included Linux distributions." Yes, in the past. "There also is no mass trend among consumers towards mass adoption of Linux." Agree. Titanic did not sink in one second. Also, I think this conversation (me and caitlyn) is absolutely pointless. |
| tracyanne Jul 07, 2009 1:39 AM EDT |
Quoting:Also, I think this conversation (me and caitlyn) is absolutely pointless. i agree, in part because you are blathering. |
| kt Jul 07, 2009 1:45 AM EDT |
"...you are blathering." Would you like to provide an explanation? |
| kt Jul 07, 2009 2:12 AM EDT |
tracyanne, if there is something you do not understand, please let me know -- I will try to convey my thoughts to you in the way you can follow. |
| tracyanne Jul 07, 2009 3:21 AM EDT |
It's ok kt it was quite clear, caitlyn made it clear you were suffering from Wishful thinking. |
| tracyanne Jul 07, 2009 4:30 AM EDT |
Just going through the various options, Both the Windows and the Linux versions are the same price for the same hardware. You get different additional options, but the base machines are identical except for the OS, that means either Dell is getting Windows for free, or they are paying for Ubuntu. Mind you the Linux deal is still way better, as it comes with, or should come with a full suite of applications, while the Windows one definitely doesn't. It occurs to me that the Sell are in fact paying for both Windows and Linux...... Well not exactly Linux, but the license fees for the non free Codecs, so they can ship Linux with said CODECs. |
| jdixon Jul 07, 2009 8:45 AM EDT |
> You get different additional options, but the base machines are identical except for the OS, that means either Dell is getting Windows for free, or they are paying for Ubuntu. My Mini 9 included the Fluendo codecs, which retail for 28 Euros. If that's also the case with these machines, that's pretty much the same price Dell pays for Windows. > Well not exactly Linux, but the license fees for the non free Codecs, so they can ship Linux with said CODECs. Exactly. |
| jdixon Jul 07, 2009 8:50 AM EDT |
> ...caitlyn made it clear you were suffering from Wishful thinking. I don't think so. Microsoft is sinking. As with any object the size of Microsoft, it's not readily apparent at this point. But the process has started and unless Microsoft changes, and changes radically, it's only a matter of time. It may take 20 years or more, but it is happening. |
| gus3 Jul 07, 2009 9:23 AM EDT |
To carry the metaphor a little further: Microsoft hit the marketing iceberg when it released Windows Vista, and their corporate ship took a lot of damage. The precise amount may not be known except to a privileged few crew members. What's more, it wasn't really ship-shape, having been designed by "engineers" with no sense of sturdiness or robustness, but the bilge pumps (outside cash reserves) handled that well enough (the "engineers" called it "normal"). Will it sink, or are the bilge pumps big enough? Too early to tell. |
| tuxchick Jul 07, 2009 9:42 AM EDT |
They'll borrow the bilge pumps from their marketing department, which has the biggest bilge pumps in the world. Pure bilge pouring forth daily in massive torrents. |
| gus3 Jul 07, 2009 9:48 AM EDT |
Throwing Jerry Seinfeld overboard lightened the load a bit. |
| jacog Jul 07, 2009 10:02 AM EDT |
... implying there is/was a load involved... in that case, agreed. |
| tuxchick Jul 07, 2009 10:27 AM EDT |
MS is on its way down, and has been for years. Their stock price has been in the dumps for ages, and their investment portfolio and fancy accounting tricks have long been used to disguise slumps in revenues from product sales. Seems like their only real innovations are in various forms of deception. They have always paid below-market wages and used stock options as a replacement for wages. Though benefits are great. The rot is at the top. Big companies never really die, they just coast along in one form or another. Some new leadership that believes in good products instead of ruthlessness and dirty tricks could energize the whole PC industry. |
| kt Jul 07, 2009 10:46 AM EDT |
I hope we all agree that Dells's Mini10v looks just a little more attractive (Price vs Hardware) than Mini10 for what these are designed to do -- net. That's the main point I was trying to make. Such advantage for MS does not come by accident. It's not a big deal. Whatever. http://www.dell.com/us/en/home/notebooks/laptop-inspiron-10/... As for the wishful thinking, you know, I don't care who wins the market, because Linux is not going away and I don't care how much market share it has. The only thing I care about is that Linux works well. However, it's just common sense to say that Linux can only grow, slowly but surely penetrating all levels of computing. No MS bilge pump can handle an infinite amount of Linux water -- MS does not have an infinite amount of fuel. Anyway, I think it's time for MS to rearrange a few more chairs on the deck or maybe hire a music band. Meanwhile, I'm off to work to setup another coworker with Ubuntu and get ready for shipment a requested Linux version of our software. Good day. |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 07, 2009 10:59 AM EDT |
kt, Focus on your work and put MS out of mind, that's is the best prescription for putting it out of business, eventually. Inertia is a hard habit to break. [All (uncharacteristicly) serious] Txt. |
| hkwint Jul 07, 2009 1:38 PM EDT |
MS is slowly turning into a litigation company. Cross patent deals - such as with Novell - show this, as well as their patent enforcement in the TomTom case. Compared to their size and wealth, there's not much innovation coming from Microsoft. So they're slowly following SCO, it seems. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jul 07, 2009 4:47 PM EDT |
The Dell Mini 10v is still my No.1 netbook choice at present. They sure killed the Mini 9 quickly. I hope they get a little stability as far as their offerings go. However, I'd be inclined to get the Inspiron 15n -- I actually want to use the machine for, you know, typing ... But if Dell could keep the price of the Mini 10v at $199 w/Ubuntu, that's an excellent price point. |
| jdixon Jul 07, 2009 7:27 PM EDT |
> They sure killed the Mini 9 quickly. .. The Vostro A90 is effectively the Mini 9. You'll find it in their small business section at http://www.dell.com/us/en/business/notebooks/laptop-vostro-a... |
| krisum Jul 07, 2009 11:36 PM EDT |
The Mini 10v in the business section of Dell does have the Ubuntu option but the home section does not.
http://www.dell.com/us/en/business/notebooks/laptop-inspiron... Edit: problem is that, unlike HP, Dell does not allow boosting the SSD or RAM capacity with 10v and is stuck with the maximum the win machine can offer |
| kt Jul 21, 2009 5:30 PM EDT |
Update: Dell now offers Mini 10v with Ubuntu: http://www.dell.com/us/en/home/notebooks/laptop-inspiron-10/... OK, I better go back to my parents' basement now before the spelling bee champion ticks off again. |
| tracyanne Jul 21, 2009 5:58 PM EDT |
it's interesting to read Dell's reasons for using UbuntuQuoting:You might prefer Ubuntu if: particularly this bit "Your Mini will primarily be used for mobile Web access" while Quoting:You might prefer Windows Vista® or Windows® XP if: when doing other than web access on a Netbook with Windows is a regular pain, while using Linux for all those other things is so easy, Linux could have been created for the low power of the netbook. |
| jdixon Jul 21, 2009 7:40 PM EDT |
> You don’t want to learn how to use different applications for email, word processing and spreadsheets. But i already use Firefox, Thunderbird, and OpenOffice under Windows. What do I need to learn? Yeah, I know Ubuntu uses Evolution, but you get the idea. |
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