The reviews I've read
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| caitlyn Jun 25, 2009 2:13 AM EDT |
The reviews of Fedora 11 I've read range from high praise to ones like this which claim it's an absolute disaster. It can't be both, can it? I plan on trying it for myself and making up my own mind. I will say that I expect the truth to be somewhere in the middle -- a mixed bag. When I read something this overwhelmingly negative I begin to wonder what the author has against the distro. I have found no perfect distros but also very few nightmare distros. When I have found a true nightmare it has never been a major distro. |
| hkwint Jun 25, 2009 5:33 AM EDT |
Quoting:When I read something this overwhelmingly negative I begin to wonder what the author has against the distro. It all boils down to frame of reference. Bryan Lunduke is one of the 'centralized Linux' working-for-dummies evangelists. Apart from that, I also did four attempts to install Fedora 11. I was hit by the 'screen goes blank' bug, making it impossible to even install / boot Fedora (LiveCD or HD install, doesn't matter), let alone review it. However, I was reluctant to complain; I wouldn't add to the FUD-bandwagon, without filing bugs first. If you replace 'nouveau' with 'vesa' in xorg.conf, at least it boots. But it shouldn't work that way, they shouldn't install a crappy driver by default which royally screws up on many systems. Anyway, I'm looking forward to your review. |
| hkwint Jun 25, 2009 5:53 AM EDT |
This comment pretty much sums it up:Quoting:Tech journalists and software reviewers should never be under any kind of pressure to submit bug reports or participate in the communities surrounding the products they review. They review them from a CONSUMER’S STANDPOINT. Consumers don’t participate. They don’t submit bug reports. Consumers don’t code, don’t patch, don’t fix their own software. Consumer's standpoint, that's how the review was done. However, in the 'FOSS-community', people aren't supposed to only 'consume' because it's considered leeching/free-riding, they are supposed to participate, become involved and help out when necessary. That's the problem, Fedora 11 isn't ready for 'consumers', but it might be ready for participants. I think that difference is something to remember when writing about F11. Pretty much reminds of KDE4: If it's beta / alpha and you want lots of people to test it - because that's the only way to improve it - don't call it beta or alpha, just call it 'ready'. KDE4 already showed the downside was that 'consumers' may leave the platform. |
| jdixon Jun 25, 2009 6:43 AM EDT |
> It can't be both, can it? As with most distros, depending on the hardware you have; yes it can. |
| magice Jun 25, 2009 9:37 AM EDT |
>Consumer's standpoint, that's how the review was done. However, in the 'FOSS-community', people aren't
>supposed to only 'consume' because it's considered leeching/free-riding, they are supposed to participate,
>become involved and help out when necessary. >That's the problem, Fedora 11 isn't ready for 'consumers', but it might be ready for participants. I think that >difference is something to remember when writing about F11. >Pretty much reminds of KDE4: If it's beta / alpha and you want lots of people to test it - because that's the only >way to improve it - don't call it beta or alpha, just call it 'ready'. KDE4 already showed the downside was that >'consumers' may leave the platform. This is really absurd. What do you mean by "Consumers"? Do you include people who like to try out new things? People willing to learn? Administrators? Programmers? Hackers? Frankly, the attitude of "Consumers are dumb" is not only stupid but also insulting, to both the software and the consumers. With that said, yes, there are some bugs within Fedora 11. So what? Remember, Fedora has its own commitments to keep to its consumers, who are educated and willing to learn more. A couple of bugs are still much better than throwing away one's commitment to Freedom, Friends, Features, and Firstness. Lastly, I have never seen a bug-free software, much less a complex system. I have seen how Ubuntu fails miserably with its SQUASHFS just a few months ago; or Debian fails to get to log in screen; etc. (the ONLY distro that I have not seen failure is Gentoo, but then, maybe I have not seen enough). What's the big deal? Because Fedora is committed to something you are not, so it screws you up royally? Spare me. With that said, back to my lovely Fedora 11 laptop. It works! |
| theboomboomcars Jun 25, 2009 9:50 AM EDT |
magice, I think you glanced over this statement.
Quoting:That's the problem, Fedora 11 isn't ready for 'consumers', but it might be ready for participants. Hans seems to be differentiating between those who contribute back and those who just consume. |
| hkwint Jun 25, 2009 10:06 AM EDT |
Quoting:What do you mean by "Consumers"? Referring to Bryan Lunduke here: http://lunduke.com/?p=429 The consumers who expect Fedora 11 to work out of the box and as bug free as possible, that would be. I'm a consumer also. I'm willing to try new things, learn, I'm an administrator (of my own system), though no programmer or hacker. For me Fedora failed because it didn't boot at all, worse, because the screen blinked and shut the power down every 2 sec while only showing a black screen for 100 msec when on, I couldn't even read an error description. I tried installing F11 four times, in four different ways. The fact that I used two methods to try to boot from USB probably shows I'm willing to learn and invest time (I should tell that the documentation on that topic was also not very er, well, let's say 'consumer friendly'). So yes, I'm a consumer, and yes, I believe I'm not dumb, and yes, F11 is not ready for me. OK, after I figured out how to replace 'nouveau' with 'vesa' it worked, but 'consumers' expect it to work out of the box, or if not, that there are warnings and documentation on how to proceed (Gentoo doesn't work out of the box, but all is explained in the docs). I knew about VESA not because it was in the Fedora docs or warnings, but because of my experience. Consumers who don't have that experience are left with no clue. I'm not the only one with the hardware I do have, so there are many other like me. If Mr. Lunduke is right about the PulseAudio / Evolution problems (I can't check if it doesn't boot; moreover I used the KDE-variant), than I'm sure F11 is not ready for consumers like me even if it did bring up the graphical environment, or worse, let the consumer believe his/ her screen is broken. Quoting:A couple of bugs are still much better than throwing away one's commitment to Freedom, Friends, Features, and Firstness. Yes, a couple of bugs are indeed better. But not when it results in something unusable because it doesn't boot, and if it does, it freezes / hangs / blinks for critical applications. Quoting:the ONLY distro that I have not seen failure is Gentoo, but then, maybe I have not seen enough After four years I can tell you it fails from time to time too, but at least I'm always able to fix it to a point where my graphical environment works again. With Ubuntu, Debian, OpenSuse, OpenBSD and now also Fedora 10, I've experienced failure to boot or to start X multiple times. But never as severe as the bug I encountered in F11. I'm really happy it works for you, and I read about dozens of other people for which it works. But it's not ready for the people expecting it to work out of the box in 99% of the cases; those people I refer to as 'consumers'. |
| lcafiero Jun 25, 2009 1:15 PM EDT |
Interesting discussion on a blog that was complete FUD. A few observations, and forgive me for echoing some of the previous posts: -- "Tech journalists and software reviewers should never be under any kind of pressure to submit bug reports or participate in the communities surrounding the products they review." Under any kind of pressure? What does that mean? Because they're tech journalists, they are NOT be required to submit bug reports, and that's true -- but they could if they wanted to. And in my opinion, anyone who considers him/herself a part of the tech community and/or the FOSS community SHOULD notify those who can fix problems (i.e., submit bug reports), regardless of their profession. Example: The newspaper for which I work publishes stories about the United Way and I'm not required to donate to them. But I do. Tech journalists actually COULD make the same "donation," and this is a huge cop out by the author. -- I agree with Caitlyn about the author having an ax to grind. It clearly shows and greatly reduces credibility of the blogs. -- hkwint, I'd be interested to know what your specs are on the machine on which you tried to get Fedora 11 running. Of all the machines in our lab that we installed on, only one (an old Dell Optiplex) wouldn't run, and it was a video memory problem that couldn't be upgraded (or so a colleague said). -- On my machines (and your mileage may vary), Fedora 11 with KDE 4.2 works great, and I have to say that desktop has converted me to its side. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 25, 2009 4:14 PM EDT |
Quoting:And in my opinion, anyone who considers him/herself a part of the tech community and/or the FOSS community SHOULD notify those who can fix problems (i.e., submit bug reports), regardless of their profession. Why the distinction at all? Tools like BugBuddy or ReportBug (now with GUI) make it trivial for people to report bugs. No need to search the internet, join a mailinglist or a bugzilla and keep track of things. Easily submit bugs right from your desktop when something is broken. And in my experience users like that. They like reporting bugs. The only reason average Windows users don't report bugs is because there are too many hurdles. It's impossible to find out where to report them. They get the feeling that they will be ignored anyway and some companies even have the gall to ask for money before you can report a bug (Microsoft, I'm looking at you). In FOSS/Linux land it's much easier. You can report any bug for any application using a single tool on your computer and you usually get a pretty quick response. From a *human*, not some automated reply. Sure, the human may be saying that they can't solve it, or that it will take time, or that it's a known issue, but at least the user gets *a* response from a real live human. The user knows they have been listened to. That matters. In my experience, Linux users like reporting bugs. Even the consumer types. |
| hkwint Jun 25, 2009 6:31 PM EDT |
If I didn't have to create yet another login for Fedora bugs I would have considered filing my bug. It's indeed about the hurdles and how much time it's going to cost if you're going to report a bug or not I guess. I have to look at BugBuddy and ReportBug. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 25, 2009 7:34 PM EDT |
Reportbug is really nice. When you start to report a bug against a package it queries the Debian BTS to show you all known bugs and recently solved bugs. When you continue and create a new bug it can also do such useful things as listing all installed dependencies and optional packages (with their versions), attach configuration or logfiles (i.e. xorg.conf when you report bugs against x.org) or run some extra diagnostics. All depending on what package you are reporting a bug for. And you don't need to create an account. Debian's BTS is entirely e-mail based so anyone can report bugs. |
| hkwint Jun 26, 2009 8:41 AM EDT |
But does it work for Fedora? It would be nice if there was one system which could be used for any distro you'd like to test. Well, guess I'll have to dream on. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 26, 2009 10:50 AM EDT |
No, it's Debian specific. But it would be nice if Fedora implemented something similar. BugBuddy is cross-distro I believe, but it has slightly less options. |
| tuxchick Jun 26, 2009 11:37 PM EDT |
Argh. Just argh. I think the main purpose of lunduke's blog is so he can say 'screwing the pooch' a lot. |
| caitlyn Jun 27, 2009 12:30 AM EDT |
Quoting:I think the main purpose of lunduke's blog is so he can say 'screwing the pooch' a lot. That and complaining about Linux. He really does seem to love a fine whine. |
| tracyanne Jun 27, 2009 1:39 AM EDT |
OK, I decided, that since there is so much controversy surrounding Fedora 11, that I would download and test it myself. First impression, and this is a mark against any Linux distro I try, and pretty much means I won't bother with the distro after that, it would not boot up on my VBox VM. I'll burn it to a CD and try it on a free machine. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!