Also some very decent Slackware-based distros
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| vainrveenr Jun 17, 2009 12:32 PM EDT |
Namely, Vector Linux and Wolvix.
Just as impressive as PCLinuxOS, if not more so. AAMOF, author Caitlyn Martin has been favorably impressed with the former two distros --- favored in many cases even over the *buntus (which Schroder also rejects here) For more thorough treatment of evaluating such distros, LXer readers would do well to peruse Martin's coverage of this. To pick three such pieces : - 'Linux Performance: Different Distributions, Very Different Results', http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/116949/ - LXer thread 'This is why I use Vector Linux', http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/28639/ - Recent LXer thread 'Seriously flawed review' (original review disparages Wolvix), http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/29156/ |
| helios Jun 17, 2009 12:50 PM EDT |
First off, I want to mention that I had lunch with the infamous LXer member boomboomcars and his wife yesterday in Austin. What a delightful couple. Extra delightful because they paid for lunch. Just joking No I'm not ;-) I, in my early days and for a lack of a better word for it, shilled for PCLinuxOS. So much in fact that Texstar had my name as "Marketing Director" on the credits. This is a great distro but like so many that get successful quickly, the forums can become a mean, nasty place...especially if you offer criticism. One of my HeliOS Project Kids went in there about a year ago and left in tears due to the rough treatment...what kind of a jerk makes an 11 year old girl cry by calling her "stupid". Minor stink ensued offline with the bigmouth and the post magically disappeared. Point is, all that glitters is not gold. PCLinuxOS is not the only distro with arm-band-wearing moderators. Ubuntu has it's share of foul-mouths that need taken to the woodshed themselves. Sal was one of the best with pclinuxos but the guy(s) that took his place or helped him were if anything, power-trip-mean. Doing what I do, I make sure now that the distro's I use know that they have kids coming in as forewarning...I even show them the avatar HeliOS Project kids are assigned so they know. For what it's worth. h |
| dthacker Jun 17, 2009 1:23 PM EDT |
(Full disclosure: I'm an Ubuntu LoCo team member, so I shill for Ubuntu) After reading through the links that vainrveer provided (thanks!), I find myself wondering if Carla's use case has simply evolved beyond what Ubuntu provides "out of the box". It seems reasonable to me that Ubuntu might have compromised performance (all those kernel modules) to satisfy a user audience that wants "just make it work now!" over kernel tuning. I'm also holding on tight to my KDE 3.5. I'm not sure what the tipping point will be, maybe the Karmic release, but I do know that I'm not in a position to be a KDE tester, just a KDE consumer, so I've avoided KDE4 for now. Maybe Carla will give the ubuntu's another chance in a release or two. I hope so. Dave |
| Alcibiades Jun 17, 2009 1:28 PM EDT |
Yes, also Zenwalk is pretty nice. But in the end, if you started out liking Ubuntu, what is wrong with Debian? Isn't it just everything that is good about Ubuntu minus the hassles? |
| jdixon Jun 17, 2009 2:11 PM EDT |
> ...what is wrong with Debian? The only problem I ever had with Debian was that I simply couldn't maintain it over a dialup connection. Apt-get simply pulled too many dependencies in when you tried to add software, and the downloads became too large for dialup. I remember installing it on a test machine and trying to add Firefox (this was before it was included, much less before it became Iceweasel). From memory, it wanted to download over 500 MB of packages to get Firefox installed. That would have taken something like 40 hours over dialup. Needless to say, I gave up. Now that we have DSL, I find it perfectly usable, though I still prefer Slackware. Some of the more experienced Debian users tell me there are ways around this problem, but as a Debian newbie I was never able to get it to work. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 17, 2009 5:22 PM EDT |
@Helios -- I'm 100 percent with you about treating users of all ages and skill levels with respect, both in the forums/lists and in person. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 17, 2009 6:36 PM EDT |
Quoting:Some of the more experienced Debian users tell me there are ways around this problem, but as a Debian newbie I was never able to get it to work. Yes. Use "aptitude -R install " instead of "aptitude install ". That way you only drag in "required" dependencies and not "recommended" dependencies. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 17, 2009 7:38 PM EDT |
Sander, thanks for that tip. I use aptitude instead of apt-get, and I usually want all the "recommended," but it's nice to know that I have a choice. |
| flufferbeer Jun 17, 2009 7:46 PM EDT |
It would help if more of you above commentators would read more carefully tuxchick's LinuxPlanet article. Seems to me that tuxchick's choice of PCLOS was mostly based upon its promising version so recently released. If the recency factor was of utmost importance, then the very new Fedora 11 should have also been considered with GNOME along with FC11's multimedia bells & whistles . Yet Fedora was not even mentioned in page 3 as a choice to PCLOS, even though the GNOME version of this avoids her issues with KDE (3.5.10 vs. 4.x) As far as Ubuntu vs. Vector/Zenwalk vs. Debian, tuxchick already indicated on page 2 that she was ticked off with all of Ubuntu's "deal-breaker" issues. So "maybe, just maybe" tuxchick should have more seriously considered these latter alternatives to Ubuntu instead of jumping right into PCLOS. Don't know for certain. I'm all for using Ubuntu myself, just like dthacker wrote, yet I still think that tuxchick did a good evaluation FOR HER OWN NEEDS (shouted out in caps) to announce her good-bye's to Ubuntu for efficiency's-sake. @Steven_Rosenber I agree with you here about the need for respect, but also find it highly ironic that commentators treating another user with clear _DISrespect_ in another recent forum here on LXer have pretty much caused that user, nicsmr, to want to unregister. One bigmouth cpmmentator write against this user in that thread: "Here comes the B.S. again.... and you wonder why you're referred to as an MS shill or an astroturfer. Your post to me illustrates why perfectly." Then another commentator chimes in against nicsmr soon thereafter: "Are you just a cheap skate demanding a free ride?" Update: As of this writing, the first bigmouth commentator of three-to-five lines above just re-chimed in with another blistering and rationalizing personal attack. nicsmr gets dissed, called a liar outright, and is basically given the complete turnoff treatment. These personal comments against nicsmr are a little harsh here, don't you think? I am surprised that nicsmr can sit around this particular forum to take more written abuse from these particular commentators. I would think some apologies are in order to keep the positive, more constructive comments coming, but it looks more and more from the continued rationalizations as if the apologies just aint gonna happen. DISrespect 101 here. ** New update: As I think is entirely appropriate, the LXer moderators have already (currently) pulled the above-referenced thread containing the harsh comments personally directed against user nicsmr. I see no need to directly respond to any further flamebait postings that are sure to follow this one. Good job mods :) 2c+2c |
| caitlyn Jun 17, 2009 8:10 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer: Since I am that horrible commentator (or one of them) in the other thread why don't you link the thread and point out the next part where I explained why I responded to nicsmr the way I did. I don't think I owe anyone an apology and I certainly don't think tuxchick or I were unfair to nicsmr. |
| flufferbeer Jun 17, 2009 8:18 PM EDT |
@helios, Sorry, I omitted referencing your quote above on forums becoming mean, nasty places. Excellent points, IMHO. fb |
| caitlyn Jun 17, 2009 8:33 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer: I went back and checked. Nobody in the thread call nicsmr a "liar" outright or at all. What he did was to dismiss Linux for businesses. That's always going to get a reaction. He claimed there was no GIS software for Linux, for example, when I supported GIS servers at the U.S. EPA that ran Linux. He got called on clearly false statements. I'm sorry if that bothers you. Actually, no, I'm not. Wasn't it you who accused me of trying to turn LXer into my own personal blog because, during some days when I was watching software compile I suggested a bunch of stories which Scott and Sander and the other editors accepted? They were, as I remember, happy with what I did. You, OTOH, launched into a personal attack on me. Pot. Kettle. Black. Yours truly, Ms. "mean and nasty" |
| jdixon Jun 17, 2009 8:35 PM EDT |
> Use "aptitude -R install " instead of "aptitude install " At the time I tried Debian on dialup, I don't believe aptitude was an option, just apt-get. |
| nikkels Jun 17, 2009 8:50 PM EDT |
>>>>>>> |
| caitlyn Jun 17, 2009 9:06 PM EDT |
@vainrveenr: Another relatively lightweight Slackware distro that may be worth looking at for some folks, particularly those looking for a live CD, is Austrumi. |
| nikkels Jun 17, 2009 9:11 PM EDT |
@ helios
>>>>>This is a great distro but like so many that get successful quickly, the forums can become a mean, nasty place...especially if you offer criticism. --I have been theatened with the stick by one mod for that ..by PM. >>>>>> One of my HeliOS Project Kids went in there about a year ago and left in tears due to the rough treatment...what kind of a jerk makes an 11 year old girl cry by calling her "stupid". --One year ago there were 3 Jerks that I know of who had the habit ..... >>>>>>Minor stink ensued offline with the bigmouth and the post magically disappeared. --Standard behavior that time. It has changed for the better >>>>> Sal was one of the best with pclinuxos but the guy(s) that took his place or helped him were if anything, power-trip-mean. --He still is. For what it's worth. |
| azerthoth Jun 17, 2009 9:36 PM EDT |
Sorry, they had their chance with me, and others here. When I had a forum post removed and blasted by a moderator in PM ... I want nothing to do with a community that would tolerate that for any length of time. From what I have garnered that prevailed for a rather long length of time. I can not nor will not recommend it to anyone. There was a recent incident here on LXer which re enforced my perception of high handed unilateral actions still exist within the PCLOS community, and that was only a week or two ago. |
| montezuma Jun 17, 2009 9:55 PM EDT |
I find a switch like this a bit hard to understand. I could understand Ubuntu to Debian for political reasons but Ubuntu to PCLOS sounds like boredom. In general the reasons offered don't stack up. I've tried many distros and the speed issue is a furphy. Sometimes a distro will be a little slower in one area and a bit faster somewhere else. Not a big deal. As for Ubuntu being buggy, well there is some truth to that but honestly it doesn't take much effort to sort these things through particularly for someone with the experience of the author. A good reason *not* to switch distros is familiarity. Why waste your time learning all the boring spin up crud for a new distro unless your old one really blows. Debian OK but PCLOS yechhh Come on Carla admit it, you're bored with Ubuntu..... |
| vainrveenr Jun 17, 2009 10:07 PM EDT |
Quoting:If the recency factor was of utmost importance, then the very new Fedora 11 should have also been considered with GNOME along with FC11's multimedia bells & whistlesAvoiding the hot-button mini-subject above, namely, that of threads becoming personally-directed and "mean and nasty", there is another upcoming distro-release that should be at least mentioned in passing here. Lucky Slackware version 13.0. From Pat V's recent news on 64-bit Slackware at http://www.slackware.com/ : Quoting:Ready or not, Slackware has now gone 64-bit with an official x86_64 port being maintained in-sync with the regular x86 -current branch. DVDs will be available for purchase from the Slackware store when Slackware 13.0 is released.This notice of purchasable 64-bit Slackware DVDs tied to 13.0's release gives the impression that one can anticipate the latter's release sometime soon (perhaps during this Summer?) Although Slackware 13.0 will admittedly be a "point-oh" release with its invariable bugs to be worked out, at the same time, this new release will definitely have an enormous "recency factor" as it were. There is even conjecture that the Slackware team might offer the option of compiling kernel 2.6.30 into this upcoming Slackware release, e.g., see http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/slackwa... Unfortunately, a key difficulty for Schroder and others besides Slackware 13.0 being a "point-oh" release, is that Slackware 13.0 will definitely include as its KDE default, KDE4. As Schroder writes: Quoting:I finally settled on PCLinuxOS 2009.1 because they just had a new release and they're using KDE 3.5.10. I haven't warmed up to KDE4 yet; it is still missing some key features that I rely on.Yes, Slack 13.0 may indeed be super-fast, offer many benefits on both old and new hardware, and even offer the backwards-compatible option of using KDE3. But the key phrase "it [KDE4] is still missing some key features that I rely on" indicates that Slackware present and future may best be avoided for this particular reason, unless "someone with the experience of the author" would definitely be willing to spend "the effort to sort these things through". |
| gus3 Jun 17, 2009 10:16 PM EDT |
The version number for Slackware was just bumped to 13.0 in the -current tree, so probably within a couple months there'll be an official release of Slackware for 64-bit machines. |
| caitlyn Jun 17, 2009 10:30 PM EDT |
montezuma: In my experience the speed difference between distros can be VERY significant and very real. I wrote about it (without benchmarks) at: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/03/linux-performance-diffe... As I use some relatively low spec (read: netbook) and older hardware this is a huge issue for me. I don't think it's fair to question Carla's motives. I said goodbye to Ubuntu a few releases ago. I keep trying it and keep saying "no thanks". I find it buggy, slow, and generally offers me nothing that other distros don't. |
| montezuma Jun 17, 2009 10:51 PM EDT |
Caitlyn, I agree that for specialized application to hardware with limited capability (netbooks, slow cpus, low memory) your point about a well tuned kernel makes sense. On run of the mill hardware as I said I haven't seen it subjectively at least. I also agree with your point about Ubuntu leaving a lot of services running that aren't needed. However it took me all of 10 minutes to fix that and I would guess tc would as well. It would be much more helpful in such subjective discussions to do some hard tests of common desktop tests i.e. some benchmarks. Phoronox does some but I don't think they quite equate with what we are talking about. As to me being too tough on tc, my post was meant to be light hearted not critical at all. After all I have done plenty of distro hopping. There's a bit too much aggro on Lxer at present for my taste, I wouldn't want to add to it LOL. |
| Scott_Ruecker Jun 18, 2009 1:56 AM EDT |
If I read her article correctly, the thing that brought her to PCLOS was all the extra stuff going on under the hood that could not be turned off in K-Ubuntu and that PCLOS had stuck with using the KDE 3.5.10 line, instead of the new 4x. I have used PCLOS for almost two years now, on a laptop, and several desktops that are still running (two having been given away and I now provide 'support' on) and my main desktop. I guess I am lucky in that I never bothered to go to their forums to get beat up, I am always on LQ if I go to a forum site to research a problem or get help. Linuxquestions.org is the only place to go if you really want help. I may be biased because I met him, but Jeremy runs a great site, I haven't gone to any other forum site for help with Linux stuff since I started out back in 2005.. There are a few of you who should remember that little thread.. |
| caitlyn Jun 18, 2009 5:00 AM EDT |
@montezuma: You make some very valid points. With more powerful, up to date machines the casual user probably won't notice much difference between distros. Even if more CPU cycles and memory is used by Distro X when compared to Distro Y, if the difference is the machine running at 30% capacity vs. 40% capacity it is still likely that the system will deliver the best performance it possibly can for the apps that are running. On any system, old or new, big or small, the difference becomes obvious when you push the limits of the system. If you are using resources for cruft those resources aren't available for useful work. If you have plenty of resources to spare you may not care. If you don't you care. It isn't about how powerful a given system is. It is all about whether you push its limits or not. I did some work for Red Hat a few years back. We had a big, well known customer who was doing things that are probably as resource intensive as you can get. They were very upset that Red Hat did not officially support xfs in RHEL. Why, you ask? For their application, on the highest of the high end equipment available, with very large files, with very high CPU demand, with memory always at or near 100% utilization, filesystem performance was the biggest bottleneck. They tried ext3, reiserfs, jfs, and xfs. For what they did the performance improvement with xfs was huge. The app in question did not run properly in a clustered environment so GFS was out of the question. You and I may never see the performance difference they saw. They were pushing the limits. I think it's safe to say that Carla is a power user when it comes to Linux. It may very well be that she pushes the limits on her system. If that's the case then performace differences between distros really do matter. The Phoronix test suite is excellent but I agree with you that it doesn't always match real world usage models. That's the problem with any set of benchmarks. Your usage pattern is going to be different from anyone else's. I can run benchmarks and publish them. Someone will come along and pick them apart simply because what I do will not match what they do. |
| jdixon Jun 18, 2009 7:10 AM EDT |
> ...but Ubuntu to PCLOS sounds like boredom. Since when is boredom an invalid reason to switch distros? > I've tried many distros and the speed issue is a furphy. Then you obviously haven't tried Slackware. > ...is that Slackware 13.0 will definitely include as its KDE default, KDE4. Yeah, it looks that way, though I haven't followed current lately. Fortunately, I've been using XFCE for quite a while now, so it shouldn't really affect me unless K3b has problems. |
| montezuma Jun 18, 2009 8:14 AM EDT |
Jdixon,
I agree boredom is a valid reason to switch distros. Just unacknowledged ;-) Also I have tried slackware and on my home machine there was little difference in everyday desktop use. Caitlyn, You are dead right about bottlenecks. I run a 32 cpu/ 4 node compute cluster at work to do scientific numerical modeling (RHEL5). At one stage the main problem was file transfer speeds between nodes and I was looking to possibly upgrade to myranet until I did a bottleneck analysis and found out that the write speed to the disks was the big problem. It was abysmal compared to the possible transfer speeds on standard interconnects. |
| jdixon Jun 19, 2009 12:02 AM EDT |
> Also I have tried slackware and on my home machine there was little difference in everyday desktop use. Then your desktop is overpowered for what you need, as Caitlyn noted. Slackware is notably faster than most (though not all) other distros. I've found this to be consistently true when I've tried other distros, which I do on an irregular basis. |
| montezuma Jun 19, 2009 8:16 AM EDT |
>Then your desktop is overpowered for what you need
And here I thought Libertarians did not presume to tell others what they need. LOL Seriously though, I would like to see some hard numbers to back up the claims being made about various distros speed. Until then strongly worded claims are just that. |
| jdixon Jun 19, 2009 9:32 AM EDT |
> And here I thought Libertarians did not presume to tell others what they need. LOL I didn't. I told him it was overpowered for what he needs. Not that HE didn't need it. Actual computing requirements for a specific task or tasks and user requirements aren't the same thing. :) > I would like to see some hard numbers to back up the claims being made about various distros speed. I think they've been done, but I don't have time to research right now. I should be working. :) Unfortunately, speed (actually, response time, from a user perspective) is a relatively subjective matter, so even hard numbers won't tell you much. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!