I don't see our pro-Windows visitors attacking this...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| caitlyn Jun 10, 2009 7:08 PM EDT |
With Claus in the Haus and the other recent pro-Windows troll/astroturfer on the site latesly I expected to see a challenge to my article. I don't see our pro-Windows visitors attacking this so perhaps they have no way to refute the relatively poor performance of Windows when compared to Linux on a netbook. |
| tuxchick Jun 10, 2009 8:17 PM EDT |
If you want to see some trolls and turfers, come visit the Mono thread over at brand x.
http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2009061001335OPCYUB
Hit 'flat mode' to see them all at once. If anyone wants to be convinced that MS is pushing Mono, this thread might do it for you. Oh, and just to fill the gap until they show up for this article....I tried Linux once, don't get me wrong, I liked it a lot and it was really cool. But it over-watered my houseplants, ate my food, drank my beer, and then it passed out on my couch and wouldn't leave. So I still use it and love it, but it's not ready for normal users. |
| caitlyn Jun 10, 2009 8:27 PM EDT |
tc: I was surprised this article didn't make the cut on Brand X. I like Brand X. It's really cool and doesn't overwater my houseplants or eat my food :) |
| tuxchick Jun 10, 2009 8:28 PM EDT |
Well caitlyn, SOME people actually post them in the Contribute story queue to make sure I SEE them. Hint.
;) ps- got this one. |
| jdixon Jun 10, 2009 8:29 PM EDT |
> But it over-watered my houseplants, ate my food, drank my beer, and then it passed out on my couch and wouldn't leave. "So I handed him my bottle, and he drank down my last swallow; then he bummed a cigarette and asked me for a light." :) |
| caitlyn Jun 10, 2009 8:42 PM EDT |
tc: I used to do that. I'll make sure I start doing it again. You've just been so very good at adding my stuff : Anyway, it's interesting that the MSI claim of high Linux netbook return rates was debunked and now we see that it's the Windows ones that don't cut it. |
| hkwint Jun 10, 2009 10:04 PM EDT |
Quoting:If anyone wants to be convinced that MS is pushing Mono Heck yeah, they're even building Silverlight for Apple iPhone and even for Android (Java?) I read somewhere. One of the sites I like to visit - they have nice news-vids - is out of the question (at least, vids are; plain HTML is OK). I tried to do bughunting; was it my faulty box? But no, it's Silverlight. I thought of installing Moonlight, but screw it, Maggie O' Reilly and Elvist Costello offer all Moonlight (shadow? Dancing in the?) I need on this system. It seams all OOXML-turfers are reappointed to Mono and Silverlight these days. It is what I see happening on my local 'favorite' forum / techsite. That's why I know people such as Claus etc. are not paid by MS: Because they don't tout Microsoft platforms such as OOXML (but that's so 2008), .NET and Silverlight. There used to be an MS exec in the forum. Once, he replied to my OOXML rant at about 4:00AM (surely hope they didn't wake him up to respond to my clueless rant). Nowadays, he's gone; a lot of people displayed their dissatisfaction he was there and signed his comments with 'Microsoft + function'. So, you know who handles my posts - or should I say lame comments? - today. No MS execs. Probably Gold Member consultants or so. But I have no evidence, so no claims from my side whatsoever. Just noticing here the changes that are emerging (and for once it was not me doing the emerging). Hans says: If you're unemployed, start reading about .NET, Silverlight etc. and start rewriting Wikipedia. Most important: Always ignore 3-revert rule and start arguments with other Wikipedians claiming how they're freakin' wrong, paid by IBM and you're right and doing this WP-writing for the favour of the universe. End every sentence with "Rob Weir is a nitwit'. If it doesn't land you a job, at least you will receive a nice Ferrari-laptop for christmas. Oh, and there are vacancies for a whole team for flaming at the criminal Neelie K. working in B. too; though even persons who don't like Microsoft are taking these with much rejoicing. |
| caitlyn Jun 10, 2009 10:20 PM EDT |
Hans: I think you mean Maggie Reilly rather than O'Reilly. She sang the original version of "Moonlight Shadow" on Mike Oldfield's "Crises" album. Annie Haslam did a couple of nice covers of the song as well, once on a solo album, once on the last Renaissance album, "In The Land of the Rising Sun". I'm a big fan of Mike Oldfield's music. If you like Maggie Reilly's voice check out an album by Flairck called "Sleight of Hand". Yes, she did the vocals. |
| number6x Jun 11, 2009 8:39 AM EDT |
5 miles out |
| caitlyn Jun 11, 2009 9:13 AM EDT |
"Five Miles Out" is a great album but it didn't include "Moonlight Shadow". The Maggie Reilly songs on that album were the title track (duet with Mike Oldfield), "Family Man", and one section of "Taurus II" called "The Deep, Deep Sound". |
| number6x Jun 11, 2009 10:54 AM EDT |
just my favorite MO album, that's why I mentioned it. |
| jacog Jun 11, 2009 11:12 AM EDT |
Oddly as I am reading this, my phone's media player is beaming a track called Varttina into my ears, by Maggie Reilly... freaky, freaky. |
| hkwint Jun 11, 2009 7:25 PM EDT |
Quoting:I think you mean Maggie Reilly rather than O'Reilly. Probably the American publisher some LXer readers / editors work for confused me? |
| Borax_Man Jun 11, 2009 7:50 PM EDT |
@ caitlyn
Quoting: With Claus in the Haus and the other recent pro-Windows troll/astroturfer on the site latesly I expected to see a challenge to my article. I don't see our pro-Windows visitors attacking this so perhaps they have no way to refute the relatively poor performance of Windows when compared to Linux on a netbook. From whence did you draw the conclusion that I am here on a mission to spread the good word about MS and Windows? I've never made a comment that Windows would outperform Linux and is technically superior. People generally don't like regressions, and the netbook is essentially a regression. Less power, less capability, still a 'new' device. They were marketed incorrectly, in a manner which people didn't realise they they were a device somewhere inbetween a PDA and a laptop. I never really saw the point of them. If I wanted a cheap laptop which didn't need to play the latest games, I would just rather buy a second hand, refurbished one, which is what I did. Granted the size of the netbook is an advantage, but when people are on the move, they don't need a word processor or CAD, they are looking for basic personal imformation management tools and tele-communications, something most phones do thoroughly now. |
| hkwint Jun 11, 2009 8:07 PM EDT |
Borax_Man: If I were you, I wouldn't waste my time on trying to convince Caitlyn or TC, but that's just my friendly well-meant advise. |
| caitlyn Jun 11, 2009 8:17 PM EDT |
I actually wasn't referring to you borax_man. I was referring to nicsmr. I didn't call you anything or accuse you of anything. Now, if you're telling me I was wrong about that... |
| jdixon Jun 11, 2009 9:34 PM EDT |
> People generally don't like regressions, and the netbook is essentially a regression. Less power, less capability,.. Less weight, lower cost, much more portability, and more than enough power for the tasks required. That's not a regression, that's another market. > They were marketed incorrectly, in a manner which people didn't realise they they were a device somewhere inbetween a PDA and a laptop. Agreed. Some folks did market them that way, but not everyone. > If I wanted a cheap laptop which didn't need to play the latest games, I would just rather buy a second hand, refurbished one, which is what I did. A second hand, refurbished laptop like this one: http://www.intechraoutlet.com/home/unit_view.asp?id=17609880... Lets see, roughly 3x the weight, no better graphics though the screen is larger, no more powerful, runs much hotter, a very limited warranty, doesn't have an OS, and costs just much. No thanks, I'll stick with my Dell Mini 9. > ...something most phones do thoroughly now. Phones which cost almost as much and have a monthly fee too. Again, the netbook is the better deal. |
| caitlyn Jun 11, 2009 9:44 PM EDT |
Actually I agree with what jdixon wrote except where he agreed with the "somewhere inbetween a PDA and a laptop." They are no such thing. I do everything and anything on my netbook that I can do on a larger system. Of course that wouldn't be true if I ran Windows. As I said in the article, Windows is the problem. There has always been a market for small and lightweight. Toshiba sold a ton of Librettos between 1995 and 2007, all at a premium price despite the fact that they were less powerful than bigger models. People would pay extra just to get small. Along come netbooks which offer what the Libretto offered but you get to pay less instead of more. Of course they were wildly successful even without Windows. Things only went south at all when Windows was introduced. Phones are not nearly as convenient as a netbook. People on the move don't need a word processor? Hmmm.... everyone I know who has a laptop or a netbook would disagree with you. Never mind that I write for a part of my living... Tracyanne made the point very well in another thread: a Linux netbook is a small, travell ready desktop replacement. A Windows netbook isn't. It's all because of the performance difference between Windows and Linux. |
| Borax_Man Jun 12, 2009 2:09 AM EDT |
@hkwint
Quoting: If I were you, I wouldn't waste my time on trying to convince Caitlyn or TC, but that's just my friendly well-meant advise.I'm here because I wanted to offer perspective on why long time Linux users may over time cool off on the idea of evangelizing Linux. I used to be quite vocal about it like you guys, and I thought the conclusions and opinions and observations might help. @caitlyn Quoting:I actually wasn't referring to you borax_man. I was referring to nicsmr. I didn't call you anything or accuse you of anything.My apologies. I made an assumption based upon a striking coincidence. @jdixon Quoting:Less weight, lower cost, much more portability, and more than enough power for the tasks required. That's not a regression, that's another market.Kind of, but did the market predate the netbook? That is, was there a call for such a device? I'm looking at a new phone at the moment, and the phones I can get can do almost everything I originally wanted a netbook for (I came close to getting the Eee PC). Quoting:Outside of PC magazines, there was very little marketing in Australia. Most people first found out about them by seeing their appearance and making the assumption it was a smaller laptop. Quoting: A second hand, refurbished laptop like this one: [HYPERLINK@www.intechraoutlet.com]I bought a thinkpad T40 for aout $460 AUD, which is about $345US, offered with a Windows licence, 512M ram, 1.6GHz Pentium M processor, 40G hard drive, gigabit ethernet. Yes, the warranty is shorter, and its heaver, larger and hotter, but netbooks start at this price. People here are happy to upgrade their phones endlessly, and seeing as everyone has a phone and a monthly bill anyway, that is standard, they may as well consolidate portable computing needs with the phone. If the phone can take over the role of the netbook, then the netbook will lose out. Mobile phone technology is marching towards becoming a minature netbook with a phone. There kind of is a market for them in a way, but there are other consumer technologies which are rapidly encroaching upon it's niche. |
| hkwint Jun 12, 2009 5:58 AM EDT |
Quoting:Kind of, but did the market predate the netbook? Does it matter if you answer to a demand or create a demand? Result is the same. |
| caitlyn Jun 12, 2009 8:23 AM EDT |
Quoting:I'm here because I wanted to offer perspective on why long time Linux users may over time cool off on the idea of evangelizing Linux. After more than a decade I doubt it. I haven't met anyone who liked Linux who later decided Windows is better both in my personal and professional life. One customer I have is a company I've worked with for a full 10 years. Quoting:Most people first found out about them by seeing their appearance and making the assumption it was a smaller laptop. That's precisely what a netbook is. So???? Quoting:If the phone can take over the role of the netbook, then the netbook will lose out.{/quote] No, it isn't. Netbooks have keyboards you can type on reasonably. Phones don't. Quoting:There kind of is a market for them in a way, but there are other consumer technologies which are rapidly encroaching upon it's niche. I don't see it. |
| bigg Jun 12, 2009 8:57 AM EDT |
Quoting:If the phone can take over the role of the netbook, then the netbook will lose out. Dude, the phone was here first. |
| jdixon Jun 12, 2009 10:14 AM EDT |
> I'm here because I wanted to offer perspective on why long time Linux users may over time cool off on the idea of evangelizing Linux. I don't evangelize Linux much unless asked. Most people seem to be willing to live with Windows rather than make the effort to switch, even if they're not happy users. > Kind of, but did the market predate the netbook? That is, was there a call for such a device? Yes, as Caitlyn has pointed out. > ...but netbooks start at this price. Mine cost US $224, $245 with shipping and taxes. Yes, you have to look around to find such prices, but they are out there. $345 > 1.5 X $224. > There kind of is a market for them in a way, but there are other consumer technologies which are rapidly encroaching upon it's niche. That's true of all technologies. You provide for the market which exists while it exists. Right now, a market for netbooks exists, as the sales figures show. |
| caitlyn Jun 12, 2009 1:00 PM EDT |
Right now netbooks are 20% of the retail PC market, up from zero less than two years ago. Growth is in the triple digits. Traditional laptops are growing at 11% last I saw. Desktop sales are actually in decline. |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 13, 2009 9:51 AM EDT |
I have been busy, i.e. lacking even the time to scan the article titles let alone read the comments. However, what i am seeing are wasted efforts trying to convince shills their cover has been blown when their description of the advancement in Linux distributions seems to escape the focused attention of these long time users[?]. While they have no problem recommending XP to noobs, without sufficient warning of the likelihood of their machines being compromised they still just Love Linux. The cognitive dissonance of these posts output and their extreme length are sufficient alone to label their goal and content as frauds. Therefore, please folks move onto something constructive, like installing Linux on a machine that has been compromised allowing another MS vicitim to move forward and allow these deceitful words to rot with the lack of attention they so rightly earned. . YBT |
| helios Jun 13, 2009 11:56 AM EDT |
I wanted to offer perspective on why long time Linux users may over time cool off on the idea of evangelizing Linux. As long as the Microsoft EULA's allow Microsoft or any third-party they deem worthy, to stomp around inside my computer with impunity, I will evangelize until my last breath. You may be comfortable with giving Redmond that kind of power but I am enraged that they even THINK I will allow such marauding tactics. All other points aside...I refuse to be quiet about a company that produces a product that demands other products be bought/used in order for it to work. TC made a comment about me wrecking the economy by suggesting AV companies will eventually go out of bid'ness if Linux takes hold. Silence your mind and be open.....you can begin to feel the grip. |
| number6x Jun 13, 2009 12:31 PM EDT |
to add to Helios' comment about being forced to buy other products to achieve a basic level of functionality. The FUD brigade often trots out the response 'you have to buy gas to use your car, and electricity to use your television!' We know that. We are not that dumb, and neither is most of the public. The laws of physics limit the amount of usable energy that can be harnessed and contained in one place. that source needs to be renewed. helios' point was about deliberately engineering a system that forces the purchaser to continually pay to maintain a minimal level of usability. In a way, Linux and Windows represent two alternative business models. The reasons for using Linux often have much less to do with the relative merits of the OS and the environment. For many Linux users it is a choice of business model. Consider the difference between leasing and purchasing a car, or office equipment. For some circumstances, leasing an OS as you do with Windows may make sense. It does not make sense for me. I choose Linux. That choice comes with some added benefits in terms of freedom, savings, security, sanity, and speed. |
| tracyanne Jun 13, 2009 7:35 PM EDT |
Quoting:I'm here because I wanted to offer perspective on why long time Linux users may over time cool off on the idea of evangelizing Linux. I'm wondering what Borax_Man considers a long time. I've been using Linux for over 8 years now, and I consider myself as only just got started as a Linux evangelist. The more I compare Linux to Windows, and that includes XP, Vista (both of which I use at my current place of employment), and Windows 7 (on a test machine so I can see for myself what the song and dance among Windows users is all about, and frankly, other than a new paint job and a few tweaks here and there, I see nothing to write home about), the more I am convinced that Linux is the better choice. Now that I have a distribution channel (a wholesaler) that will sell no OS and Linux pre installed, I can take advantage of the distribution channel, and not incur the triple whammy of Windows License fee (about $50 when on a netbook) plus shipping plus replace Windows with Linux and reship to customer, which means I can offer a significantly lower price point than Windows equiped machines, WITH THE SAME HARDWARE SPECIFICATION, and make a profit on the sale. Now all I have to do is build an install CD that will set the machines up my way, which the distributor will use to build my orders. |
| krisum Jun 14, 2009 5:56 AM EDT |
@borax_man
Quoting: I'm here because I wanted to offer perspective on why long time Linux users may over time cool off on the idea of evangelizing Linux. I used to be quite vocal about it like you guys, and I thought the conclusions and opinions and observations might help.Such statements are a sure give away. Besides everyone here understands that it is a lie. You sure have some ideas about those who are "evangelizing Linux" but most here support linux simply because it is a far superior technology in nearly every metric. So how long have you been using linux? 11+ years here and counting. |
| Bob_Robertson Jun 14, 2009 10:32 AM EDT |
Helios, > TC made a comment about me wrecking the economy by suggesting AV companies will eventually go out of bid'ness if Linux takes hold. Not to play into the hands of the trolls, I do see a need for the kinds of techniques, experience and skills that have been developed by anti-virus efforts. Some day someone might write an effective Linux-based virus. While I think it most likely it would be attacking through the same sort of vector as the original Worm which attacked Sendmail, it's still worthwhile to keep one's shields up to date. |
| tuxchick Jun 14, 2009 12:35 PM EDT |
Bob, there already is a healthy Linux/Unix security industry. The Windows AV companies are useless because they know nothing about real security and really fixing things. Ask yourself what if: what if the Windows AV companies, instead of engaging in their parasitical, too-little too-late game of issuing marginally-effective patches for the unfixably leaky Windows (and applications), embarked on a productive course instead? What would that look like? Wouldn't it look something like repairing the actual Windows source code, improving development practices, issuing a constant flow of up-to-date warnings and information, and going after malware purveyors? You know, something like how it's done in FOSS-land? From the Windows world we enjoy an endless cycle of pay more money, reformat reinstall, upgrade, and yet never ever make any progress. Remember the greatly-publicized Conficker Posse? Now there was a handwaving empty publicity stunt worthy of PT Barnum. But it was the Honeynet Project and Nmap who actually released a reliable Conficker detector. Don't forget it was the commercial AV companies that gave the Sony rootkits a pass. Not once but twice. and so on...it would take a book to list the deficiencies of the Windows AV industry. They need a sick software ecosystem to survive, or at least they believe they do, and can't see any other options. |
| Bob_Robertson Jun 14, 2009 1:50 PM EDT |
> what if the[y]... embarked on a productive course instead? What would that look like? Honestly, I believe it would do for Windows what S.E.Linux provides for Linux. Isolated system-only libraries, real user-level privileges, etc. I think it could be done in Windows, but I don't believe it is a priority for the AV people (because they wouldn't profit from it) or Microsoft (because they make money from AV too, don't they?). Maybe this is like some of the conspiracy theories around the Cancer-treatment industry. There is no money motivation to actually locking down a Windows system (or curing cancer), because that would reduce the demand for anti-virus services. It may be that the only truly effective anti-virus techniques will come from the voluntaryist sector, just the Linux ecosystem, which is substantially immune to computer viruses, has. Which leaves S.E.Linux, a product of "a division of the Department of Defense", which may very well be one example of even a broken clock being right twice a day. Edit: It is interesting to note that Linux/Unix has "security", while Windows has "anti-virus". Hmmm.... |
| hkwint Jun 15, 2009 1:06 PM EDT |
SE Linux are additions in the form of patches (I wanted to add something about the government doing something useful, but I'll abstain). However, what TC is talking about sounds to me like OpenBSD audits: Fix what's already there, without adding new complexity. In other words: Where virusscanners and to a lesser degree SE just add an airbag, you could also try to make sure the car doesn't crash in first place. If you are able to change sourcecode, that is. |
| jdixon Jun 15, 2009 1:14 PM EDT |
> (I wanted to add something about the government doing something useful, but I'll abstain). Too late. :) Seriously, the government does lots of useful things, and I'll let it go at that. |
| hkwint Jun 15, 2009 1:26 PM EDT |
You were not supposed to be the first one answering, but thanks for the beer anyway. I'm taking my RSI-break; have fun and hail tux. |
| Bob_Robertson Jun 15, 2009 1:42 PM EDT |
> Where virusscanners and to a lesser degree SE just add an airbag, you could also try to make sure the car doesn't crash in first place. If you are able to change sourcecode, that is. That sounds like an argument for using F/OSS. |
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