I'm in the middle of writing a similar story
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| caitlyn Jun 02, 2009 12:33 PM EDT |
I read this and almost screamed. I'm writing a similar story. OK, it's a different take on it so I will probably still go ahead and publish but... I see I'm not the only one who has read the reports of high return rates lately and realized that the problem is the poor performance offered by Windows. |
| gus3 Jun 02, 2009 12:59 PM EDT |
Not only that, how well will an Eee PC with Linux run bzflag? My guess is that it's better. (Haven't tried it yet, but it's on the agenda.) The machines will play games well, when the OS doesn't get in the way. |
| jdixon Jun 02, 2009 1:12 PM EDT |
My only real disagreement with the article is the following statement: > Since the interface looked very different from Windows it was clear to most people that these were not full computers but companion devices. I'm sorry, but my Mini 9 is indeed a "full computer", albeit a rather slow one by current standards. Of course, running Linux on it means that even with an Atom processor I have as more available processing power than any low end laptop running Vista. :) |
| caitlyn Jun 02, 2009 1:19 PM EDT |
@jdixon: I agree. My Sylvania g Netbook Meso is a full computer as well. Of course, if it was running Windows I might not think so. Asus and MSI have now dropped Linux entirely. I hope their sales plummet. |
| hkwint Jun 02, 2009 1:30 PM EDT |
Quoting:Asus and MSI have now dropped Linux entirely. I hope their sales plummet. I don't agree entirely; something else happened. They dropped 'netbook' as we knew it, because the more expensive the devices they sell, the bigger their margin. Why would they offer netbooks if they can sell notebooks? Same for Intel: Why would they offer Atom if they can sell Cores? Same for MS: Why would they offer $15 WinXP if they can sell Vista? Now, what if the three of them decided to work together: Produce small Acer/Asus notebooks with Core and Vista. Then all three of them are more happy then when selling netbooks. If they all work together, cheap netbooks disappear from Western market and people are forced to buy small notebooks, even if all they really want is a netbook. Probably that's the reason why Linux netbooks are still sold in Asia: Not everyone can afford a mini-laptop. I guess all three parties over here (chipmaker, OS-maker, OEM) don't mind if they sell less devices, as long as less devices offer them more profit they couldn't care less. If I had $200,000 I'd buy 1000 of those devices from the TW/CN/HK OEM's I listed elsewhere, put Ubuntu or something on them and try to sell them on eBay or similar (or better: Open my own shop). Problem is, I don't have that amount of money to buy the minimal number of devices from those OEMs. Anyway, I want one of them gyy's too. |
| jdixon Jun 02, 2009 1:32 PM EDT |
> Asus and MSI have now dropped Linux entirely. MSI is no surprise. I never was able to find anyone who actually had a Linux version of their machines in stock. Asus does surprise me. I have to agree that it sounds like they were bought. |
| tuxchick Jun 02, 2009 1:39 PM EDT |
MSI were claiming the fictitious 4x higher Linux netbook return rate before they even released a Linux netbook. The dishonesty and corruption are mind-boggling. Microsoft is mentally ill, and it's shameful how easily their lackeys sell out to them. |
| gus3 Jun 02, 2009 1:47 PM EDT |
Could they be classified as a cult? |
| caitlyn Jun 02, 2009 1:49 PM EDT |
Asus is not all that surprising to me. This is the "better with Windows" company, remember? Asus wasn't a major player in the laptop market before the EeePC. It was the original EeePC with Linux that made them a major player. There are a number of small, upstart vendors hawking ARM based machines at Computex this year. It will be interesting to see if any of them becomes the next Acer. I also am intrigued by the Lemote products. Maybe they will be the next contender with the Chinese government backing the Loongson chips. All I can say: my next machine will still come preloaded with Linux and it is increasingly likely it won't have an Intel or Intel compatible CPU. Nothing against Intel, BTW. I appreciate their support of Moblin and Linux in recent years. I just believe competition is necessary and I want to see other architectures succeed in the marketplace. I also used to do a lot of SGI support and I have a soft spot for MIPS. OK, some will say soft in the head, but nonetheless... |
| hkwint Jun 02, 2009 1:53 PM EDT |
Quoting:Nothing against Intel, BTW. They're convicted for screwing customers by means of anti-trust infringement on three continents; sounds like a reason to me to have something against them. Moblin is nice, though. So is Google Wave, uh? |
| caitlyn Jun 02, 2009 1:58 PM EDT |
No, Google Wave is not nice. Somehow Intel manages to avoid those anti-trust issues and keeps moving forward. As I said, I want to see competition. I'm just not at all sure that supporting a Chinese government project (Loongson) with all their human rights abuses is somehow better than supporting Intel. |
| hkwint Jun 02, 2009 2:03 PM EDT |
Quoting:No, Google Wave is not nice. What I meant was even 'bad' companies can produce nice stuff from time to time. Most people seem to like the Wave (or Android) technology; not that it's made and controlled by Google. I like Moblin, but don't like Intel. Even Microsoft produces some nice technology from time to time, though a recent example doesn't come to mind (now, is that surprising?). Indeed, buying something from Chinese government doesn't sound like a good idea either. Well, when we want to buy a CPU that's not 'politically tainted' I'm afraid we might indeed have a hard time. I guess both Cell and Tilera won't work in a netbook; no matter how much I like the idea. PS where's AMD? |
| tuxchick Jun 02, 2009 2:16 PM EDT |
How can we avoid buying anything Chinese? China is the manufacturer of the world. |
| caitlyn Jun 02, 2009 2:41 PM EDT |
We can't avoid buying Chinese entirely. My netbook was made in China, has a Japanese brand name which was licensed to an American company who sold the machine. However, when we have choices between a Chinese product and another product we can make a choice based on what is important to us, be that politics, morals, ethics, our local economy, price, whatever... In CPUs there are still choices. AMD has said publicly that they won't enter the netbook market. In x86 architecture we have Via competing with Intel and there are also smaller companies doing SoC solutions. In MIPS we have Ingenic and Loongson in China providing chips for netbooks. In ARM we have more choices: Qualcomm, Texas Instruments, Jade Tech, Marvell, Ingenic, etc... We each have to weigh what is important to us when making choices. I don't and won't boycott China at this point. I will point out that I'm not always happy making the choice for a Chinese product. |
| hkwint Jun 02, 2009 4:11 PM EDT |
Quoting:In x86 architecture we have Via competing with Intel But when Nano is better than Atom (and benchmarks etc. show it is as the Atom was intentionally crippled in favour of Core), then why does nobody use the Nano? Quoting:I will point out that I'm not always happy making the choice for a Chinese product. If you like to wear socks, there is almost no choice. Apart from that, the company where I worked took Chinese/Dutch plastic and steel parts, Slovakian/Italian/Spanish/American Alu parts and then assembled them together putting a Dutch/US brand on it; and I guess this happens everywhere. So most of the times you don't even know you're buying something which was made in China. |
| caitlyn Jun 02, 2009 4:37 PM EDT |
Well... Digital Gadgets (Sylvania), HP, and Everex did have Nano-based netbooks. None did terribly well in the marketplace and the tech press dismissed them as inferior products. I have read about new Nano platform netbooks, nettops, and ever servers coming to market soon but I haven't actually seen any available yet. |
| kt Jun 02, 2009 5:03 PM EDT |
"Asus and MSI have now dropped Linux entirely." I just saw a Linux EEE PC 1000 on their web site. What's the deal here? |
| caitlyn Jun 02, 2009 5:09 PM EDT |
I'm quoting a report on ZDNet. I'm going out in a minute but later on I'll find it again and link it for you. If the ZDNet report is correct that system won't be on the Asus website for much longer. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 02, 2009 5:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:My only real disagreement with the article is the following statement: Actually, I agree with that. The different interface makes it very clear to people that this is not an ordinary computer and that they should not expect to install Photoshop and AutoCAD and whatever else they have at home on it and run. And this is true. It immediately solves Linux's #1 problem when converting Windows people: dispelling the expectation that they are getting a "free Windows clone" instead of a different OS. And then happy surprise #2 comes along: The little computer that they expected you could use just for browsing and e-mail turns out tp be capable of much, much more. Because it is a full OS. And now you have a happy new Linux user because you a) did not set false expectations and b) surpassed the expectations they did have. Compare that with the expectation of Windows netbooks, where people expect to buy a full computer and it turns out that once you install a virus scanner on a netbook, all it really is good for is just e-mail and browsing because anything else is too heavy. Windows sets high expectations and doesn't nearly live up to it. It's not about Linux on netbooks not being a full OS. It's about setting and meeting people's expectations. |
| kt Jun 03, 2009 12:22 PM EDT |
"I'm quoting a report on ZDNet. I'm going out in a minute but later on I'll find it again and link it for you. If the ZDNet report is correct that system won't be on the Asus website for much longer." So, what's going on? |
| caitlyn Jun 03, 2009 12:37 PM EDT |
kt: That story has been pulled by ZDNet and now links to a different story. I have to believe the author, Dana Blankenhorn, was engaging in some wishful thinking rather than reporting facts. The only thing I can now confirm is that Asus apologized for showing an ARM powered Eee PC running Android and has scuttled that project. The apology was made standing next to Microsoft execs. While that may be a bit ominous it is a long way from ditching Linux. |
| kt Jun 03, 2009 12:54 PM EDT |
"The only thing I can now confirm is that Asus apologized for showing an ARM powered Eee PC running Android and has scuttled that project. The apology was made standing next to Microsoft execs." The path of least resistance. Typical Chinese ... :x) |
| kt Jun 03, 2009 3:31 PM EDT |
"Asus apologized for showing an ARM powered Eee PC running Android and has scuttled that project" As far as I can tell Asus apologized for NOT showing the netbook. Here a quote from the article you linked: >>>> Shih said, "Frankly speaking ... I would like to apologize that, if you look at Asus booth, we've decided not to display this product. I think you may have seen the devices on Qualcomm's booth but actually, I think this is a company decision so far we would not like to show this device. That's what I can tell you so far. I would like to apologize for that." >>>> What exactly do you mean by "scuttled that project"? Do you have some inside information or is just speculation? |
| caitlyn Jun 03, 2009 3:47 PM EDT |
First, you read it backwards. Shih was standing with three Microsoft execs and was apologizing for showing it. There have been at least three articles here on LXer.com where Asus is quoted as killing the project: http://www.techworld.com/news/index.cfm?RSS&NewsID=116818 http://blogs.computerworld.com/microsoft_strikes_back_at_lin... http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/06/02/is-microsoft-buyi... No inside info, no speculation, just reading the news. |
| kt Jun 03, 2009 4:03 PM EDT |
caitlyn, none of the sources you just linked point to Shih "apologizing for showing it". It doesn't matter which way you read it (backwards or forward) -- the quote says that he apologized for NOT showing the netbook. Also, the linked resources suggest that the project was "put on the backburner". This does not sound as dramatic as your interpretation ("scuttled that project") of the reality. |
| caitlyn Jun 03, 2009 4:07 PM EDT |
Put on indefinite hold reads to me as scuttling the project. I can get you more links. Everyone on the planet EXCEPT YOU reads the comments as apologizing for showing the netbook. |
| kt Jun 03, 2009 4:13 PM EDT |
good luck, caitlyn. You will need it. |
| tuxchick Jun 03, 2009 4:16 PM EDT |
/me leads caitlyn away and feeds her delicious homemade chicken soup. It's OK bubbalah, the rest of us understand plain English. Would you like some nice saltines with that? |
| jdixon Jun 03, 2009 4:29 PM EDT |
> It's OK bubbalah, the rest of us understand plain English. Actually, in this case that may not be true. It very likely that at least one person in the chain of these stories is a non-native English speaker, for whom English is a second language. Given that, any interpretation of the article may be premature. It's probably best to hold off judging until we have more information. |
| caitlyn Jun 03, 2009 4:34 PM EDT |
The chain of events is unmistakable, though. Day one: ARM EeePC running Android on display Day two: ARM EeePC running Android nowhere to be found Day two: Asus corporate announcement that ARM Eee PC is "not a mature product" and that development is halted due to lack of "engineering resources" Day two: Apology issued I don't see how this can be interpreted in any way differently than I and the authors of the various articles have interpreted it. kt: Thanks, but somehow I don't think your lack of comprehension means I need some extra luck. I definitely don't need chicken soup. |
| kt Jun 03, 2009 5:15 PM EDT |
Shih: "I would like to apologise that, if you look at Asus booth we’ve decided not to display this product" caitlyn, I strongly recommend you take some rest. Chicken soup helps... |
| hkwint Jun 03, 2009 7:29 PM EDT |
Why not send a mail to this Mr. Shih or some other exec or making a phonecall? Is it hard? (Last time I tried to reach Asus in Taiwan it was). |
| tuxchick Jun 03, 2009 8:11 PM EDT |
sorry caitlyn, I was being too clever. what I meant was 'some arguments are not worth the bother; let's go have a nice snack and a good laugh over the idea that Tony Soprano on stage with Mr. Shih could mean anything other than Microsoft is pulling the strings yet again.' |
| hkwint Jun 03, 2009 8:27 PM EDT |
OK, now I agree we don't need to ask Asus or Mr. Shih; they say "it's not mature" and also an Intel exec was next to the Microsoft one, which basically tells all I wanted to know. |
| gus3 Jun 03, 2009 8:30 PM EDT |
"It's not mature." That doesn't really narrow it down. Which version are we talking about again? |
| caitlyn Jun 03, 2009 8:34 PM EDT |
We're talking abount an Asus EeePC with a Qualcomm Snapdragon (ARM) CPU running Android. That's what "isn't mature" even though it was getting rave reviews at Computex the day before. That's what Asus pulled from the display. That's what Mr. Shih apologized for showing. tuxchick: I haven't had chicken since 1984. Meat (except fish) turns my stomach. It's actually a genetic condition. I'm all but vegetarian. |
| hkwint Jun 03, 2009 9:07 PM EDT |
Quoting:That doesn't really narrow it down. Exactly. It's a lame and probably invalid excuse; when Intel / MS execs are sitting right and left of you; crawling back in the hole where Intel and MS want you to be. It's a surrender; calling your very _own_ products (with a different OS; I agree) immature. Therefore we don't need to contact them as to how we should interpret this move. This company Asustek is too immature to sell their customers what they want. They're being childish and selling _their_ customers what Dad Intel and Mom Microsoft want. Older brother Qualcomm proves to be mature though, by showing something which Asus cannot offer, even while Qualcomm used some Asus hardware. If I were Qualcomm, I'd call Quanta/Compal to sell these devices myself. |
| caitlyn Jun 03, 2009 9:11 PM EDT |
Hans: Thank you! I don't see how anyone can interpret this any other way. Asus certainly wasn't apologizing for not showing the laptop. They were kowtowing to MS. |
| gus3 Jun 03, 2009 10:27 PM EDT |
That was supposed to be a sardonic comment. Oh well, winnafyoo, loozafyoo. I have yet to see any version of Windows that could be called "mature." Ever since Linux 1.0, it has been more mature than whatever version of Windows was the latest at the time. |
| tuxchick Jun 03, 2009 10:31 PM EDT |
me2 gus, my comments weren't about soup. |
| caitlyn Jun 09, 2009 1:09 AM EDT |
Yeah, but it's more pleasant to discuss soup than to discuss Microsoft. Microsoft gives me indigestion. |
| caitlyn Jun 09, 2009 2:31 AM EDT |
OK, my new article on the subject of how Windows is causing the high return rates for netbooks recently reported is at: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/06/high-netbook-return-rat... I've submitted it to LXer.com so hopefully it should show up soon. |
| bigg Jun 09, 2009 6:16 AM EDT |
That's a well-written piece. Summarizes everything nicely. |
| caitlyn Jun 09, 2009 8:10 AM EDT |
Thank you! Sadly, I expect it to have zero impact and someone already commented making excuses for stores. Oh well... |
| bigg Jun 09, 2009 8:16 AM EDT |
I don't agree with his comment. I know for a fact that in some cases the stores have a margin of zero or less. It's the extras that they want to sell. I doubt the margin is much smaller than it was on my most recent $400 laptop. |
| caitlyn Jun 09, 2009 8:36 AM EDT |
You're absolutely right, bigg. Feel free to express that in the comments section of the actual O'Reilly article (hint, hint) :) |
| bigg Jun 09, 2009 8:52 AM EDT |
I thought about it, but then I'd end up in additional discussions and it would eat even more time than I spend here. About three weeks ago I decided to stop posting in response to everything I see. Not that there's anything wrong with the O'Reilly site, it's just a slippery slope. |
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