Amen
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| chalbersma May 16, 2009 3:06 PM EDT |
I hear every word. |
| caitlyn May 16, 2009 5:57 PM EDT |
Unfortunately the letter is a load of well... you know. Asustek was never a friend of the penguin. They've had the "It's better with Windows" stuff on their website almost from day one. They saw an opportunity to make some money with Linux where Windows wouldn't fit and took advantage. That's all their support for Linux ever was and ever will be. Oh, and yes, they still sell Linux boxes. Many netbook vendors don't. They still brought Linux to the masses like nobody else could. We should thank Asus for that rather than throw stones. |
| jdixon May 16, 2009 11:01 PM EDT |
> We should thank Asus for that rather than throw stones. Agreed. They did what it was in their business interest to do, but how many others have had the chance to do the same and not done so? Would Dell be selling Linux netbooks now if Asus hadn't proven that the market was ready? We owe Asus thanks, if for nothing else than having the common sense to realize that there was a market for a machine which couldn't run Windows. |
| caitlyn May 16, 2009 11:05 PM EDT |
jdixon: If we look at the latest "Linux is dead" tripe coming from Lenovo it's clear that some vendors still don't see a market even when it's staring them in the face. That, or they are so tied to Microsoft that they are unwilling to look elsewhere. Asus, Dell, HP, Digital Gadgets (a/k/a Sylvania Computers), even Acer with their half hearted effort to sell Linux... they all deserve our thanks. They have all proven you can make money selling Linux systems. You can't put the djinni back in the bottle. The days where it's all controlled by Microsoft are over. |
| keithcu May 16, 2009 11:27 PM EDT |
Yes, this is all good. But they could and should do more. Dell added Linux because of their Ideastorm website, not because of Asus. I still buy computers with Windows because the models I want come that way (Lenovo). So Lenovo still thinks that people love Windows and so doesn't invest in Linux. I bought a Dell that was cheaper than the Linux models they offered and tried to put Linux on it but the wireless didn't work. And right now, Dell has only 4 models with Linux. Everything is still very half-hearted. These guys all believe in Linux but do very little. I think it is fine to keep beating up on them all to do more. |
| dinotrac May 17, 2009 12:01 AM EDT |
keithcu -- I can't swear to all of the details, but I have come into possession of a Dell MIni 9 with Ubuntu by virtue of a friend being unable to tether his treo 750 to it. The long and short of it is that Dell is apparantly -- for the first time -- setting up actual Linux support. Not just "it runs on the hardware" support, but people to answer questions support. There may be hope. |
| jdixon May 17, 2009 12:22 AM EDT |
> And right now, Dell has only 4 models with Linux. Dell only has 4 models with Linux in their home and home office section. That's not all the machines Dell offers with Linux. As examples: Vostro A90N: http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/lap... Optiplex FX160: http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/des... Precision T3400 http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/pre... Other Precision models available with Linux include the T3500. T5400, T5500, and T7500, but I won't include the links for those. And that doesn't count their servers, which I didn't check. Admittedly, the only one of those of interest to the home user would be the Vostro A90, but Dell does offer more Linux models than you would think from a cursory examination. |
| keithcu May 17, 2009 1:29 AM EDT |
Just to clarify, I noticed that Dell supported only 4 models from this page: http://www.dell.com/ubuntu If you click on the "Shop for Ubuntu" you see only 4 models. I now see that they support Linux on more machines but for some reason don't put it on that page. Good. However, it also appears that their Vostro A90N is the same as their Inspiron Mini 9n. Support is great, but getting every machine to have all of its drivers in the kernel, and then allowing people to get Linux on every machine should be what they do. Then we all would really find out how popular Linux is. However Dell is ahead of Lenovo and others, when their hardware works. (The thing about Lenovo is that all of their hardware works very well with Linux, even though you can't get it installed and must pay the Windows tax.) I also think it is stupid that Dell is still shipping Ubuntu 8.04. I know it is an LTS release, but that is something for enterprises, not normal users. This LTS thing (which I doubt many people care about) actually is slowing progress. |
| caitlyn May 17, 2009 2:28 AM EDT |
Lenovo is hardly alone. A lot of Toshiba laptops work flawlessly with Linux. Toshiba in Japan even has an English language Linux support mailing list. They still won't sell their systems with Linux, at least not here in the U.S. Dell is doing a decent job. I don't know if you saw the article earlier in the week about Dell now releasing new systems with Ubuntu and Windows at the same time. Also the new versions of the Mini 10 have Ubuntu as an option. Is Dell perfect? Not hardly, but they are better than most. Asus, the target of the rant that started all this also sells nettops (mini desktops) with Linux. |
| jdixon May 17, 2009 10:57 AM EDT |
> I noticed that Dell supported only 4 models from this page:... If you click on the Shop for Ubuntu link and check the bottom of the top bar on the resulting page, you'll find that's the home and home office section. The others are in their small business section. There are may be more options in their government and enterprise sections, but I didn't check. |
| helios May 18, 2009 12:16 AM EDT |
Just a tad off topic, our tuxbymail program (http://tinyurl.com/os49dq) is bringing in 2 laptops on average a week for Linux installs. The majority of them happen by word of mouth. Why they are switching them over to Linux is funny in a way. Three out of the last five say that the mini9 wireless stops working with the first windows update and it goes downhill from there. I haven't seen a mini 10 yet but as down on Dell as I have been, I must admit that the mini 9 is impressive. It takes almost any distro I put on it, gets the resolution right and screams through it's tasks. The only change I make is to get rid of network manager and install wicd first off. Agreed, Dell has been hot and cold in their marketing of Linux but their project line has shaped up nicely. My personal opinion is that Asus didn't have much choice in the decision they made...I think the money offered to them to post that was too good to pass up. If you can't earn loyalty...buy it. Seems to be the way it works now. h |
| keithcu May 18, 2009 1:22 AM EDT |
Helios, Interesting story and cool service! I'm always looking for good info/ammo about Dell for my book. Can you tell us any? |
| helios May 18, 2009 2:17 AM EDT |
I've blogged about it both good and bad...haven't been too kind to them on occasion but give them credit when it is due. Lately that has been good. let me go through my blogs and see if I can't assemble some links. It is off to bed for me now. did 3 helios project installs today and with the onset of diabetes, I get really tired after the 14 hour of work. The only reason I switched to Gnome is because lately my feet resemble the famous trademark too accurately. Will post you personally when I get them together. h |
| keithcu May 18, 2009 3:32 AM EDT |
Thanks for collecting them. Looking forward to reading your posts. A goal in my book is to push everyone to do a better job with Linux. You charge $50 each? How much time does each take? |
| helios May 18, 2009 7:55 AM EDT |
Using the images I created, about 20 minutes. |
| caitlyn May 18, 2009 8:16 AM EDT |
Ken, I actually agree with everything you wrote here :) I've played with a Mini 9 and it is very, very, very similar to the Sylvania g Meso I bought. (Same processor, graphics, sound, ethernet and wireless.) Anyway, I agree that Dell gets it right with their netbooks running Ubuntu Netbook Remix. FWIW, my system is currently triple booting Ubuntu Netbook Remix, Mandriva 2009.1 (which will go soon), and Vector Linux 6.0. The workaround for the Intel graphics issue for Ubuntu (the older driver) works well. The new driver for Mandriva doesn't work well and their suggested cure makes things worse and causes freeze ups. The driver upgrade doesn't actually improve performance any. What does is enabling UXA and that, in turn, causes the system to lock up intermittently. The only other solution they offer is disabling 3D graphics acceleration entirely. You really may want to reconsider offering Mandriva (or at least 2009.1) until a fix is found on systems with Intel graphics chipsets. It's really a pitty because I've always liked Mandriva. I read what you offer for home users. I do Linux for businesses but have shied away from the sort of thing you do. I do have some questions. I notice you offer to install side-by-side with Windows. Do you insist that your customers back up their systems before you do it? I've always been cautious about installing an OS (any OS) without a backup first. I guess I'm not as brave as you are. I'd be afraid of folks blaming their Windows problems on the Linux install. I've dealt with way too many clueless Windows users in my life, I guess. |
| helios May 18, 2009 9:29 AM EDT |
"I've dealt with way too many clueless Windows users in my life, I guess." having been one of them much more recently than you have (2004) I had to laugh when I read this. No...I do the backups. Caitlyn I am dealing with people that are flummoxed over right vs left click and actually had a 62 year old lady burst into tears when I showed her copy and paste. She had been opening the host document side by side with her email editor or word document and typing it in verbatim when she needed to pass it along. Carla has made the statement before, with only half her tongue in cheek, saying some people should have to be licensed to operate a computer. I would have put this lady on the short list. She's not nearly the exception we would like to think. It's just easier for me to do the backups and know that it's done right. "I'd be afraid of folks blaming their Windows problems on the Linux install." Yep, already happened and learned handily from the experience. I now explain it to people like this. I put two sealed containers side by side, or tell them to imagine they are there. I then tell them to pour the contents of container one into container two without breaking the seal of either container. When they say it can't be done, I give them the "aha moment" by telling them those containers represent the partitions on their computers and that the twain shall never mix. I actually open the partition editor and show them the physical presence and refer to them as container one and container two. I note the different file systems so they can see that we are dealing with oil and water...at least that's the way I want them to think of it. Has worked for me well so far. What I've found is that if you spend just a bit of time with people and do a minimum of hand holding...and I mean maybe one or two calls after the install, people just use Linux as if it were Windows and never look back. There have been exceptions but not many. Reference again Carla's hypothesis. h |
| dinotrac May 18, 2009 11:40 AM EDT |
Helios --- I have a mini 9 that fell through a potential Linux user's hands because I didn't know an easy way to tether his Treo 750 to it via USB to use as a modem. He let me have the box (we've owed each other a few favors) as I'm helping him out with something and don't have a notebook I can take to meetings, but... This strikes me as something Dell should have figured people want to do. Beautiful little box (I've got one with all flash and no moving parts), amazingly nice to use, but a selling point for service businesses is the ability to go anywhere with cell service and be able to get onto internet apps. Still -- a really nice user experience. My friend really liked it til hie tried to hook up the stupid mobile. |
| caitlyn May 18, 2009 3:20 PM EDT |
Helios/Ken: Dino raises an excellent issue. You receive laptop X by mail or walk into a nice home in Austin. All is fine and good until you realize you have some incompatible hardware. The Winmodem in my old Toshiba laptop is a great example. There still is no Linux driver, proprietary or free. Dino's Treo example is also a good one. You make some wonderful guarantees on your website that I wouldn't dare making. Like I said, I'm not as brave as you. What do you do? Don't people demand their shipping cost back? Have you lost significant money this way? What if you run into an older system with one of those ATI or nVidia or SIS chipsets not supported by the new X.org? Do you change up on distros, go with an older version, or what? How do you explain it? Just curious. I'm always looking for ways to expand my business. Your way is intriguing but strikes me as awfully risky. |
| tracyanne May 18, 2009 5:33 PM EDT |
The treo thing is an issue. I've had people ask about using Wireless broadband, and I know for a fact that the wireless broadband dongles that Bigpond sell don't support Linux, there ARE NO Linux drivers, and the situation probably applies to every other telco over here, I've had to walk away from the chance to sell a Linux net book because of that. |
| jdixon May 18, 2009 10:05 PM EDT |
> ...because I didn't know an easy way to tether his Treo 750 to it via USB to use as a modem. I take it the two links I sent you didn't work out then. :( |
| krisum May 19, 2009 7:22 AM EDT |
@caitlynQuoting: The Winmodem in my old Toshiba laptop is a great example. There still is no Linux driver, proprietary or free.Does http://www.linuxant.com/drivers not have drivers for the winmodem? |
| caitlyn May 19, 2009 9:03 AM EDT |
Nope, it's not a Conexant chipset. Besides, I never use dialup. I was just giving it as an example of what could be troublesome for a business like Ken's that asks folks to send in their laptops for a Linux installation. |
| helios May 19, 2009 10:03 AM EDT |
Caitlyn. There are situations I just have to walk away from, not many but you nailed most of them...you been around that block obviously. SiS chipsets have been a thorn in my side since I started this. I simply tell people there's not much I can do with them. I have one now running in my lab that I think I've made some breakthroughs with. I bought it just so I could learn to master it. Ubuntu 9.04 will run on it but the integrated graphics are teh suck and I will go as far as to put an old nvidia card in the machine at no charge just to get the deal done. I only have about 200 of them laying around. I haven't had any real problems with the older ati or nvidia cards/chipsets...Only that blasted SiS nightmare. Again, there are times I just walk away...2% or less. I always qualify the customer and the machine for TuxByMail clients, and most of the time for our callouts/in-home installs. I have them simply install belarc advisor, run it then email me the output. Saves me a ton of time and headache. If people ship me their laptops (some desktops have come this way too) I know I can install it via the Belarc reports. I have on occasion been whupped on home installs, again for one particular mb/chipset but that's always my fault for not qualifying them before I go out.. If you read the disclaimers on our guarantee, you will see we don't have our backside's out in the wind really at all. I have yet to get any calls asking for us to come out and fix anything encompassing the guarantee For blackberry and treo problems I just install and set up virtualbox and show them how to use it. Most people are amazed that an entire Windows environment can run in Linux. Barry is ok for syncing but for firmware updates it just isn't there yet I have been given a Lazarus key for Windows 2000 and all the software for mobile users so far has worked in it. It is an added step and kind of a pain but I've got the setup down to about 15 minutes to include installing the software for the mobile devices. A few folks just cannot get their heads around the virtual thing and for them, there's not much I can do for them. In all though, it has been a profitable venture. I learned all the stuff above the hard way but when I screw it up once, I put it away as an important learning experience and make sure it doesn't happen again. |
| dinotrac May 19, 2009 2:04 PM EDT |
jdixon - It's been a while, but..if I recall correclty, they applied to older palm based Treos, not the Windows mobile 6 based 750. Or I've got you confused with someone else!!! The big problem is that it is actually possible to tether a 750 to a linux box, but it's a hackerish solution that looks pretty scary to a non-tech. He called Dell support and got "You can't do that". He called his normal PC guy and got "Gee..everything in Linux requires you to know "linux language" and ultimately decided that he couldn't give these things to his people. Except me. I am a linux geek, after all. Too bad, too, because he agrees that the XP version is clunkier than the linux version -- but -- he just hooked up his phone and it worked. |
| caitlyn May 19, 2009 3:23 PM EDT |
Ken/Helios: Thanks for the helpful and informative reply. As you've guessed I do and have done a lot of the things you do, mostly as a word of mouth offshoot of my business services. I haven't have the um.... gumption... yeah... the gumption... to try and market to home users like you do. I will be the first to admit it's out of fear. I have no problem sitting down and teaching someone who wants to learn. I still am afraid of having to undo work and refund monies for someone who just doesn't get it and decides they don't want to because it's easier to blame me. I also fear not being able to put their Windows back just so and recreate their own little personal corner of hell the way they had it before I got there, malware and all. For nVidia cards I recommend Vector Linux simply because it has the most absolutely complete support for them I've seen in any distro. Once it's installed it isn't any harder to use than Ubuntu and I know the installation and configuration well enough to get through it quickly without much effort.. It's installation and configuration issues that usually put newbies off that distro which is a shame. If you solve SiS chipsets please publish a HOW-TO. Lots of people will thank you for that one. I have most Trident chipsets licked but they can be a pain in some distros. Thankfully Mandriva and Vector handle them very well so I can simply steer people away from Ubuntu, for example, or else, in some cases, just edit the xorg.conf file. The ATI card issues, support being dropped for a bunch of them, only applies to distros that have gone with the latest X.org 7.4: Ubuntu Jaunty, Mandriva 2009.1 Spring, and Fedora 11 are the ones I know of for sure. Everything else should work OK at this point. Anyway, thanks again. |
| jdixon May 19, 2009 3:29 PM EDT |
> It's been a while, but..if I recall correclty, they applied to older palm based Treos... Probably so, yes. > ...but -- he just hooked up his phone and it worked. Windows works with Windows, which is what anyone would expect. Of course, that's not always the case. |
| helios May 19, 2009 8:37 PM EDT |
speaking of vector Caitlyn, are there stand-alone cd repositories for the slack distros? I need to put a bunch of games on an old p3 we are donating to a girls home and I will have no access to internet there. are there packages out there for slack that I can use without a live connection? |
| caitlyn May 19, 2009 9:06 PM EDT |
I can't answer for all the Slack based distros. They all do their own thing. Neither Vector nor Slackware itself have repo CDs. |
| jdixon May 19, 2009 9:49 PM EDT |
Ken: All Slackware packages, and those of most derivatives, are simply tgz'ed files (though that's due to change to a new compression scheme in the next release). Under Slackware, you can simply copy them to a CD and install them using the Slackware command line tools (installpkg xyz.tgz). I don't know enough about Vector or Zenwalk to answer for them, but I'll take a quick look at Vector later tonight. I've been meaning to set up a virtual Vector machine anyway. |
| jdixon May 19, 2009 10:49 PM EDT |
Ken: AFAICT, while Vector uses gslapt and slapt-get for updating the system, the base Slackware pkgtools are still available, and still compatible. So you should still be able to install the packages from the command line with installpkg xyz.tgz. There are a number of third party package sites for Slackware, thee most notable being linuxpackages.net, slacky.eu, and slackbuilds.org (though they do not provide pre-built packages). There's also a Slackware package search site at http://slackfind.net/en which searches a number of packages sites for you. |
| gus3 May 19, 2009 11:26 PM EDT |
Also helios, you could use slackbuilds.org and sbopkg to build a package on one machine, then copy it to the others for installation. The current games list for SB.o is at http://slackbuilds.org/repository/12.2/games/ The built packages will land in either /tmp or /tmp/SBo. However, be advised, there is no automatic dependency resolution. The configure scripts will usually catch the missing thing and tell you what you need... one at a time. I hope at least the hard drive is fast. |
| caitlyn May 19, 2009 11:30 PM EDT |
Vector, Zenwalk, and Wolvix packages are lzma compressed (.tlz) not gzip compressed (.tgz). The package tools are not standard package tools but rather modified ones from the Tukaani Project that support both lzma compression and dependency checking. All three of these distros do support dependency checking in the way you think of with distros like Ubuntu, Fedora, and Mandriva. Slackware does not. In addition Vector packages have a minimum i586 architecture requirement. I believe it's i686 for Zenwalk. Slackware is i486. While all three distros are loosely based on Slackware, Vector in particular has been drifting farther and farther away from generic Slack for years to the point that plain vanilla Slackware packages are generally not recommended unless there is no other choice. There has even been talk of rebasing Vector off of something other than Slack by the developers. I haven't been in the loop since working on a different project that considered my volunteer efforts for Vector a conflict of interest. In other words, don't assume Vector == Slackware or Zenwallk == Slackware because it just isn't true at this point. They are all somewhat Slackware compatible. |
| helios May 20, 2009 8:19 AM EDT |
in other words, don't assume Vector == Slackware or Zenwallk == Slackware because it just isn't true at this point. They are all somewhat Slackware compatible. Thank you Caitlyn...if not warned, I would have done just that. |
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