I completely disagree
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| caitlyn May 14, 2009 2:52 PM EDT |
I have been watching the job market and in a tight market like this HR departments use a certification requirement to weed out what they would see as weaker resumes. Actually, I've seen job listings with certifications that are either required or preferred increasing for years. I know, both as a freelancer and when I was looking for corporate/government work my Red Hat certification opened doors for me. Ken Hess also makes the mistake of treating all certifications equally. It was indeed possible to get a paper cert if you wanted a CNA or an MSCE. Anyone who has taken the RHCE exam knows that it is very much hands-on and that without solid knowledge and experience you are unlikely to pass. |
| tuxchick May 14, 2009 3:04 PM EDT |
I got stuck at when he quit because the other student was getting his training subsidized and Mr. Hess was paying his own way, and now the other guy has a nice career and is making a good income, so there. Or something. |
| caitlyn May 14, 2009 3:48 PM EDT |
Yep, tc. It read a whole lot like sour grapes to me. My Red Hat certification was subsidized. OTOH, I know that having more certs will help me market myself and I probably will pay for one or two more. I don't resent it. I consider it a good investment in my career. |
| tuxtom May 15, 2009 4:08 AM EDT |
Quoting:...in a tight market like this HR departments use a certification requirement to weed out what they would see as weaker resumes.If you are using the HR approach to finding employment then you have effectively weeded yourself out already. Quoting:Anyone who has taken the RHCE exam knows that it is very much hands-on and that without solid knowledge and experience you are unlikely to pass.Yes, that is the propaganda....and once you do pass there is more money to be made from administering RHCE exams than there is from administering Linux. There is little in the way of hard data correlating these certs to higher pay or better positions...it's all anecdotal and of course anyone who threw down that kind of cash and/or effort is gonna embellish it. I don't mean to disrespect the effort and technical merit of passing one of these, it's just that it is a very lucrative industry in itself that plays on your l33t ambitions. I know because I have been heavily courted by my local training/testing company after taking RH's online assessments. Did I do way better than average on those assessments like they say I did, or does "everybody" do way better than average? |
| hkwint May 15, 2009 6:46 PM EDT |
Quoting:HR departments use a certification requirement to weed out what they would see as weaker resumes. That's not necessarily conflicting with Ken's opinion if you'd ask me (yes, I noticed nobody asks me, but I will give my opinion for free anyway!). Ken tells 'years of experience' is also 'good enough'. But how are you going to proof that experience? Sure, you could let your employer make some testimonial of your skills; but those could be fake. Maybe you were a good friend of your last boss, how would your new employer know? LPI certs can be checked online for authenticity on the other hand; so they and other certificates are a 'proof to HR' that you have experience. So I guess the disagreement in the title of this thread is not as total as you might think at first. BTW: If you're good at learning stuff by heart, you could come a long way in an LPI exam is my experience. Mine will expire next year, buwaah (cry)! PS "Are some Linux certs without any proven experience or IT-education also enough to land an IT-job?" is another question I'd like to see answered, as finding a job as mechanical drawer is hard these time but RHCE is really, really expensive. |
| caitlyn May 15, 2009 8:55 PM EDT |
Actually it costs all of $800 to take the RHCE exam. Compared to other certifications that isn't all that expensive. tuxtom: Large companies all use HR to go through resumes and then pass them on to the hiring manager. Many mid sized companies do too. No way around that. If you have the right keywords and perhaps certs you get through just fine. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 15, 2009 9:41 PM EDT |
I'd like to get RHCE. It couldn't hurt. |
| Sander_Marechal May 16, 2009 2:16 AM EDT |
I always planned to get some LPI certs, until they decided that LPI certs expire and you need to re-take the tests every few years. |
| gus3 May 16, 2009 9:58 AM EDT |
LPI certs are more multi-platform, so yes they'll expire. The way an RHCE "expires" is with a new release of RH. Just like an MCSE for Windows XP is no good on Vista. ...never mind that everything's no good on Vista... |
| caitlyn May 16, 2009 11:41 AM EDT |
gus: The RHCE (and RHCT and RHCA) does not expire. I was certified against RHEL 4. Red Hat still considers me certified for RHEL 5. |
| gus3 May 16, 2009 1:30 PM EDT |
Then I stand... er, sit corrected, w.r.t. RHCE. Maybe others, too. But it's still a word of caution to those seeking certs. |
| tuxchick May 16, 2009 5:48 PM EDT |
What I have heard from hiring managers is certain certifications, such as RHCE and Novell's, do have some value because you can't just take a cram course and then pass the exams. You have to have some real knowledge. They also show that you have the will and discipline to take the necessary courses and pass the exams, which is similar to preferring an applicant with a college degree even when it's unrelated to the job. Someone who has formal training or education is presumably going to have a better-balanced skill set than someone who exerts him or herself only when it's interesting, or forced by necessity. It's never an either-or deal; if you have good experience and the right certs that moves you to the front of the pack. Oh, and a decent personality and lack of tude help too :) |
| caitlyn May 16, 2009 6:11 PM EDT |
tuxchick pretty much hits the proverbial nail on it's little metal head. Certs by themselves don't buy you all that much. Experience is an absolute must in a competitive market. If you have both doors open. In a highly competitive market like we have in the current economy if you don't have both some companies won't even talk to you. |
| hkwint May 16, 2009 6:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:I always planned to get some LPI certs, until they decided that LPI certs expire and you need to re-take the tests every few years. Got it around the corner (from your view) in Eindhoven - without even owning a credit card! Probably was the first one who took the exam not sent by a company (unless 'unemployed' is the name of a company) and paying for my own; neither did I take any classes. They were rather surprised over there I can tell you. Back then, the exam was already a bit aged. All CLI stuff like managing cups, fstab, rpm etc. However today there's hal, udev, d-bus and more recently the "three kits" (package, console and device). LPI is a bit slow as to adapting to those changes; at least in my opinion. Their pool system of allowing new questions is great however. You're right about 'expiring', when I took the exam it was 10 years, nowadays it's 5. But in the light of hal, udev, d-bus & the three kids not existing / almost not being used 5 years ago thus not being in the exam back then I can understand. Learning math surely is cheaper. Quoting:Actually it costs all of $800 to take the RHCE exam. Compared to other certifications that isn't all that expensive. LPI single level is only €300, but then I only spent one hour and a half behind a computer taking the exam (IIRC six hours were allowed). So probably I suffer from a different frame of reference. If after eating and paying bills, at the end of the month you only have something like €150 left for clothes, traveling, fun & goodies OR an RHCE exam, then $800 (equals €800 I found out) is expensive. So phew, I sure am glad I don't have to take the exams you would consider expensive! |
| Sander_Marechal May 18, 2009 2:57 AM EDT |
Quoting:LPI certs are more multi-platform, so yes they'll expire. Why should they? If I understand the LPI rules correctly then after X years I cannot say that I am LPI certified anymore. Why can't I simply say that I got LPI certified in this-and-that year and let a potential employer decide whether they think it's still relevant or not? |
| tuxtom May 19, 2009 4:50 AM EDT |
Quoting:Large companies all use HR to go through resumes and then pass them on to the hiring manager. Many mid sized companies do too. No way around that. If you have the right keywords and perhaps certs you get through just fine.That's certainly what the tired, old conventional wisdom says, isn't it? I've never gotten a job that way. There is more financial security buying lottery tickets. I'm working for a Fortune 10 right now and HR called asked for me after the hiring manager who I had an inside introduction to forwarded my contact info. The resume was incidental. So not only IS there a way around the conventional HR shuffle, going around it is really the only practical way to get a position. If you are depending on resume keywords to sell yourself in the marketplace you are marginalizing yourself, ad nauseam. The shotgun approach only works well if you want to end up like Kurt Cobain . Keywords can never replace contacts. You resume is really irrelevant. No one REALLY reads it. They might hold it and glance at it and ask a question or two about what's on it, but that's small talk. It's who you know, not what you know, and that's the way it should be because that's the way it is. On the RHCE: $800 is pretty steep for one exam. Granted, it costs more to administer, but there is a LOT of money made off people who don't pass it. They also let you know up front that your chances of passing it are pretty slim unless you sign up for their $2995 course leading up to it...even if you have a lot of experience. The FastTrack. RedHat is a little TOO interested in your money...not to mention their incessant pushing of JBoss, as if everyone who is interested in Linux wants a behemoth Java app server. I've been woken up in the AM from RedHat sales calls on more than one occasion. They gotta pay for that JBoss monstrosity somehow...might as be by selling certs to unsuspecting consumers. That's easy money. Quoting:I was certified against RHEL 4. Red Hat still considers me certified for RHEL 5.Are you sure about that? That's not how I read it. Current (i.e. not expired) cert , yes, but not certified on RHEL5. |
| caitlyn May 19, 2009 9:11 AM EDT |
tuxtom: Your anecdotal experience with your large company is just that: anecdotal. It doesn't change the fact that the way I described it is the way a lot of companies work and that they simply don't permit an end-around their system. If you know someone inside then they can talk to HR for you but they still require HR to do some basic screening before moving on. Oh, and yes, I have gotten a job that way. Knowing how to tailor your resume to get through the HR shuffle for the kind of position you want is a skillset. If you're good at it you get passed on to people that matter. You talk about knowing people and I certainly agree that networking and professional contacts are the best way in to a good position. Very often who you know is far more important than what you know. You talk about "depending on keywords". I guess that means throwing your resume out on DICE or Monster and hoping a job comes to you. That doesn't work and never has. In the current economy it is almost pointless. Searching for a job always requires doing legwork yourself and finding the right places to send your resume. Having been a hiring manager running an IT department I can tell you that resumes do get read. They can be door openers. For many positions it is how someone gets to make a first impression. |
| hkwint May 19, 2009 6:16 PM EDT |
Several people told me for 50% of the jobs they put a vacancy in a magazine / paper / online, and 50% of the jobs are given to people via networks etc. So it seems (again) there's not a big disagreement. Problem is, I don't know that many people and at this moment don't have an idea how to change that. I might have mentioned I'm currently unemployed. Tuxtom: Your advice is appreciated here! |
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