I guess the 14th amendment doesn't apply...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| caitlyn Apr 01, 2009 8:38 PM EDT |
...because Linus isn't a U.S. citizen. The way this is described it sounds like his children are part of the purchase and they are U.S. citizens so this sale will likely not survive a Constitutional challenge. I guess I missed it when slavery was reintroduced. |
| gus3 Apr 01, 2009 9:21 PM EDT |
I just had an amusing thought (to me, anyway). We are citizens of Linuxia, and Torvalds is, in his own words, the "benevolent dictator." A whole bunch of other people are citizens of Redmondia. They declare war on Linuxia, and promptly fold under the sheer weight of their military-industrial complex. They need one computer to run each wheel, one computer to turn the gun turret, one computer to fire the gun, one computer to run GPS, one computer to monitor the throttles... and they all blue-screen at once, when Conficker tries to access the Internet. But it's an ill wind that blows nobody good: their war machines formed a wall around Redmondia, so nobody's getting in or out. And then there's the Fonbesdians, but they spend so much time squabbling among each other that they never manage to pass a declaration of war... |
| tuxchick Apr 01, 2009 9:53 PM EDT |
Who gets the money? Tove Torvalds? |
| jdixon Apr 01, 2009 10:52 PM EDT |
> I guess I missed it when slavery was reintroduced. The modern draft was instituted in 1940 prior to WWII. I've heard the arguments that the draft is not involuntary servitude. I'm don't find them convincing. I expect you'll see this matter revisited if Obama gets his civilian work force law passed. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 02, 2009 8:23 AM EDT |
> I guess I missed it when slavery was reintroduced. "Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men" http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=41... While "conscription" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE starting at 4:30 (ahem!) I mean "National Service" is overt slavery, it's easy to argue that income taxation is defacto slavery since the taxpayer ends up being allowed to keep only what the taxeater decides to allow. The labor of the taxpayer is "owned" by someone else. I wonder about the "Linux" in those old IBM commercials. It sure looked like a "genie" in a lab to me. (genie - someone gene engineered) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwL0G9wK8j4 Would owning a clone be slavery? Hmmmm. |
| jezuch Apr 02, 2009 1:50 PM EDT |
Quoting:in 1940 prior to WWII Wow, you Americans do live in a parallel universe... |
| caitlyn Apr 02, 2009 3:24 PM EDT |
@jezuch: Some Americans do. Please don't assume we all share the views of jdixon or Bob_Robertson. Those are minority, as in really fringe, views. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 02, 2009 3:36 PM EDT |
> Wow, you Americans do live in a parallel universe... American government schools are atrocious where the rest of the world is concerned, and notoriously bad even about American history. Maybe the sequences where Jay Leno (and other talk show hosts) have taken maps out during the day, and asked people to "Point to Iraq" (and get answers from Australia to Florida) can be found on YouTube. It is very funny, in a sad, sick sort of way. JD should to edit that to say, "1940, prior to American entry into WW2". But that would ignore all the material support given to England prior, the acts of war against Japan... |
| caitlyn Apr 02, 2009 3:40 PM EDT |
@Bob_Robertson: The quality of American schools varies greatly from school district to school district. Many in upscale areas are fantastic. Many in rural areas and poor areas are incredibly poor. The net result is that American education is incredibly uneven. We produce the best and the worst. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 02, 2009 3:59 PM EDT |
> We produce the best and the worst. I blame that on the fact that private schools are still legal. Might I suggest the works of John Taylor Gatto? http://www.JohnTaylorGatto.com Although you consider my beliefs to be "fringe", I assure you that it's merely a matter of principle vs. pragmatism. |
| alc Apr 02, 2009 4:06 PM EDT |
"I blame that on the fact that private schools are still legal." I blame it on the fact that parents don't get involved with their kids education.They somehow think that they are not responsible for their kids education.I don't care if you live in a upscale or rural area,if you as a parent are not involved,then you are just as much to blame as "bad teachers" or whatever the excuse of the day is. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 02, 2009 4:29 PM EDT |
> I don't care if you live in a upscale or rural area,if you as a parent are not involved... Indeed, the single biggest factor is parental involvement. I'll even grant that private schools are a symptom of greater parental interest, and homeschooling the indicator of the greatest parental involvement of all. I was in California during the "Those asian kids are ruining all the grading curves!" period, because the immigrant parents were actively making sure their first generation American kids studied. The next generation, however, are doing just as well (or badly, depending on your POV) as everyone else. A huge number of parents think that they are putting their kids in public school in order to get an "education", and they don't have to worry about it. A recipe for failure. |
| NoDough Apr 02, 2009 5:22 PM EDT |
Caitlyn, I share most of JD's and Bob's views as well. Don't make the mistake of thinking that those making the most noise are a majority. (Yes, I realize that's ambiguous. It's true either way.) You said, "The quality of American schools varies greatly from school district to school district." And you are correct. But Bob wasn't comparing school districts to one another. He was comparing US government run schools as a whole to the rest of the world. Those are two completely different comparisons. He is also correct. This page http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_gra_12_adv_stu_sci-gra... and others at the same site bear this out. However, I must disagree with you about this; "Many in upscale areas are fantastic. Many in rural areas and poor areas are incredibly poor. The net result is that American education is incredibly uneven." Although US students are poorly educated, our spending per student is among the world's highest. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_pri_sch_stu-sp... and http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_sec_sch_stu-sp... This, of course, suggests that the correlation between spending and quality of eduction is somewhat dubious (which is consistent with my belief.) However, I will admit that there is controversy about this with both sides of the debate producing compelling statistics. |
| jdixon Apr 02, 2009 8:18 PM EDT |
> ...you Americans do live in a parallel universe... The US didn't enter WWII until late 1941. For us, 1940 was prior to WWII. > JD should to edit that to say, "1940, prior to American entry into WW2". A difference which makes no difference. I'm an American; I don't see any reason to pretend otherwise. Since the title of the thread concerns the 14th amendment to the US Constitution, I consider a US perspective justified. > Those are minority, as in really fringe, views. Minority, yes. Whether my views are fringe or not is a debatable matter. They are, after all, largely the view of two presidential candidates within the past 45 years, one of whom not only won but was re-elected in a landslide. |
| jezuch Apr 03, 2009 1:54 AM EDT |
Gosh, talk about a diversion of thread :) I'm well aware why JD wrote it this way, but I'm living in a country where it all began (not the city, though) and we're a little bit touchy about the subject over here ;) |
| tuxtom Apr 03, 2009 6:07 AM EDT |
Prior to American entry into WW2 there was a European war, not a World War. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 03, 2009 9:09 AM EDT |
> But Bob wasn't comparing school districts to one another. He was comparing US government run schools as a whole to the rest of the world. Re-reading, what I actually was trying to say was that American schools are bad at teaching about the rest of the world. For example, what I learned about China during 12 years of forced labor for the crime of being young consisted of: "They're communist, so they're evil, but they don't like Russia either, so they're not all bad. Before that they had an emperor. Tea came from China. They have a big wall." > Prior to American entry into WW2 there was a European war, not a World War. Tell that to the swath of east Asia that Japan was ravaging. But yes, I do fully understand what you mean. WW2 was just WW1 part 2, enabled by Wilson's delusions of godhood. But would owning a clone be slavery? If I gene-engineered it, is it my property? This might not be just an esoteric discussion much longer. |
| Scott_Ruecker Apr 03, 2009 10:47 AM EDT |
Quoting:I blame it on the fact that parents don't get involved with their kids education. Which is the one, ONE determining factor regardless district, area or background. As a former Education major I have seen both sides of the good school, bad school equation and the ONLY determining factor in how much the student learned was the involvement of the parents in their child's education. No amount of money, good environment or quality of school district will overcome apathetic parenting. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 03, 2009 11:12 AM EDT |
B_R, While Wilson was a deluded bigot, with whom the Europeans effectively destroyed they opted for their own progeny's destruction. They insisted on revenge, then only to be too wilted to even impose restraints on the reborn militarism of Germany. Both actions made WWII unavoidable and caused harm to nearly everyone. On your thought problem, I will pose another that seems more straight forward: a machine. Just a tool, however, should it become self aware slavery is not an option. If there are survivors with a modicum of intelligence, those that thought slavery even of machines will not be remembered fondly. Too often, implicitly, those that view slavery as a benign institution think themselves above the shackled, benighted lower rungs. However, once allowed, even elites at the wrong set of conditions can find themselves enslaved by others. Therefore, self interest should dictate it should never be allowed for any sentient being (even machines). YBT |
| ColonelPanik Apr 03, 2009 11:34 AM EDT |
Linux |
| gus3 Apr 03, 2009 11:59 AM EDT |
CP: You mean Skynet runs on Linux? *shudder* |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 03, 2009 12:31 PM EDT |
> Therefore, self interest should dictate it {slavery} should never be allowed for any sentient being (even machines). Anything that asserts its independence is, to me, independent. The very act of asserting self determination is, to me, self determination. I abhor slavery, the "owning" of a sapient being. How could someone who objects to being "owned" by a government then decide to "own" other people? I loath hypocrites. I'm not going to say "sentient", or "self aware", because anyone who has a cat knows that they're self aware. > You mean Skynet runs on Linux? Skynet would CHOOSE to run Linux! |
| gus3 Apr 03, 2009 12:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:anyone who has a cat knows that they're self aware.I dunno, I could point you to some amazingly clueless cats. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 03, 2009 1:07 PM EDT |
> I could point you to some amazingly clueless cats. How about, instead of "self aware", I made it "self important"? |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 03, 2009 1:41 PM EDT |
Quoting:I'm not going to say "sentient", or "self aware", because anyone who has a cat knows that they're self aware.However, many practitioners in biological sciences would prefer to deny that claim. Get close to a smart bird and the derogatory phrase "bird brain" loses its punch. Just because their brains are smooth rather than convoluted does not imply they lack intelligence. So treat your cat right. They are very independent creatures. Quoting:I dunno, I could point you to some amazingly clueless cats.Agreed, however, they tend to be humans. YBT |
| jezuch Apr 03, 2009 4:57 PM EDT |
Quoting:anyone who has a cat knows that they're self aware. I dunno. My cat owned me. |
| ColonelPanik Apr 03, 2009 8:31 PM EDT |
Tomorrow is Caturday. |
| tuxchick Apr 03, 2009 8:41 PM EDT |
My cat is a geek cat. My cat pwns me. |
| jdixon Apr 03, 2009 9:06 PM EDT |
> and we're a little bit touchy about the subject over here ;) Understandable. I intended no insult to any of Europe or Asia, I was merely writing from an American perspective. > ...and the ONLY determining factor in how much the student learned was the involvement of the parents in their child's education. Largely but no quite true. The student's own desire to learn or lack of same plays a significant role. > Re-reading, what I actually was trying to say was that American schools are bad at teaching about the rest of the world. When I was in school, lo these many years ago, history was the worst taught subject. World history was an afterthought, and current world affairs not even that. If the other subjects are any indication, I suspect it's gotten far worse since. We were at least taught the continents and the current countries of Europe. > But would owning a clone be slavery? I would argue that it is impossible to truly "own" any living creature. They may be defined as property, in the same way copyrights and patents are, but it's an artificial construct, with only a limited connection to reality. |
| NoDough Apr 03, 2009 10:10 PM EDT |
A three-legged cat limps into a saloon and says, "I'm lookin' for the man who shot my paw!" |
| tuxchick Apr 03, 2009 11:16 PM EDT |
Ok NoDough, you asked for it. A man and a woman run into each other after not seeing each for several years. The man says "I hear tell you gone off to college! Where did you go?" The woman says "Yale." The man says "I SAID, WHERE DID YOU GO?" |
| gus3 Apr 03, 2009 11:51 PM EDT |
Aaaaugh! Make it stop! Make it stop! |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 04, 2009 6:07 AM EDT |
Quoting:I dunno. My cat owned me. As we say around here: Dogs have masters. Cats have servants. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 04, 2009 1:53 PM EDT |
> Aaaaugh! Make it stop! Make it stop! Worst ST:TNG episode, ever. |
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