Torvalds switches to Gnome
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| garymax Jan 23, 2009 3:05 PM EDT |
It's interesting that after Linus' remarks about "just use KDE" in 2005 he is now a Gnome user--thanks to KDE developers making radical changes to the K desktop environment version 4.x (i.e. big changes in functionality). I guess now we will see more Gnome adoption? |
| ColonelPanik Jan 23, 2009 3:26 PM EDT |
Change happens! The Colonel approves of LT using GNOME. |
| azerthoth Jan 23, 2009 3:31 PM EDT |
It shows that Linus is human after all and capable of PEBCAK as well as the rest of us. By not noticing what updates he was downloading, and trusting the process he borked (well upstream borked) his desktop. KDE 3.5 is still being actively supported, I'm running 3.5.10 when I log into KDE (occasionally). I dont see a mass exodus just because Linus said he was, it's my opinion that Gnome spends more effort getting in my way than helping, much like KDE4. Still I think it's nice that even Linus has the same opinion of KDE4 that I do. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 23, 2009 5:40 PM EDT |
Luckily, I can just use Debian Lenny and not have to worry about switching to KDE4 for _years_. I'm very happy with KDE3.5, but such is life. Change happens. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jan 23, 2009 6:03 PM EDT |
GNOME ... it's so dreamy! |
| DiBosco Jan 23, 2009 7:32 PM EDT |
Steven, did you mean to say "dreamy" or should that m have been an r? ;~) |
| dinotrac Jan 23, 2009 9:16 PM EDT |
I was happy to read Linus's opinion on the KDE4 debacle. It's the kind of thing that gives free software a bad name while making FOSS look like the domain of amateurs and self-important boy-geeks whose ears are all for show. Oh well -- even the hardest head eventually lets the message in...or...wait!!! Did somebody say Enlightenment? |
| ColonelPanik Jan 23, 2009 9:20 PM EDT |
Linus enlightened me: said to use GNOME. |
| dinotrac Jan 23, 2009 9:52 PM EDT |
I just wish I liked GNOME even a little. Oh well, I'll just stick with KDE 3.5 for now. |
| tracyanne Jan 24, 2009 1:01 AM EDT |
I've just set up an older Toshiba Satilite with 256 Meg of RAM with an Xfce desktop, it's even capable of running all the composited themes (not the cube though), transparencies etc, and it really gives it a face lift after the WinXp desktop. I'm still not a fan of GNOME, but it's certainly better than the current KDE4 desktop. On the other hand just from testing Mandriva 2009.1, I'd have to say KDE4 is starting to get good again. |
| number6x Jan 24, 2009 1:11 AM EDT |
Why is gnome so big and hungry? KDE is huge, but its like a Suse distro, or a Knoppix disk. It has way too much stuff. Gnome is just bizarre. Take the screensaver settings. Gnome takes the standard xscreensaver control panel and removes some of the configuration options and controls(advanced). Why? Lighter desktops use the standard panel, they give you more functionality work faster and take up less memory and disk space. The same pattern is repeated throughout Gnome. Did they write extra code to hide the functionality, instead of making the codebase smaller? I just don't get it. On Gnome machines I constantly go into the configuration editor, or hand edit files that the standard X and gtk utilities already have. I don't get what the Gnome designers are aiming for. "What can we do to frustrate you today?" |
| Sander_Marechal Jan 24, 2009 4:45 AM EDT |
number6x: So? Replace gnome-screensaver by xscreensaver, replace various *-gnome apps with their respective *-gtk apps (i.e. xchat-gtk instead of xchat-gnome) and you have an awesome desktop. That's what I always do on any machine. It's all FOSS. You can replace the bits you don't like with bits that you do like. PS: You shouldn't be running gnome-screensaver (or the Qt equivalent) anyway. Here's why: http://www.jwz.org/xscreensaver/toolkits.html |
| Scott_Ruecker Jan 24, 2009 5:02 AM EDT |
This is an area where Linux users are completely spoiled rotten. Here we are debating the merits of one Desktop Environment over another, what programs we like more than others, what versions of those programs we like over another, getting in pissing contests all the while crying about what we wish they would do better or differently. I wish Windows users had this problem, but they don't. Yes I know that there are other window managers for Windows but they are little more than themes compared to what we have. We have thousands of versions of Linux that you can run dozens of different desktop environments on top of, and we're still not happy. We are the spoiled child in the 31 flavors who can't find anything they like while most Windows users have no idea that ice cream comes in anything other than vanilla. He have gotten fat on the bounty of choices and drunk on the power of functionality they provide. Go use a generic XP or 2000 setup for a week and then try and tell me that KDE, GNOME, XFCE, Enlightenment etc. are really that much better or worse than each other. Because compared to Windows, they ALL blow Windows away, period. Give me a desktop environment I do not like on top of a Linux version I do not like and its still a thousand times better than Windows. And I will make a bet that even having to use the DE and distro I don't like, I will be able to change enough settings and download what programs I can't live without on it and make it enough to my liking that I could live with it. I couldn't do that with Windows even if I wanted too.. I am just trying to give some perspective to this issue, not pick any fights. I prefer KDE over GNOME or Enlightenment or XFCE, but I have the luxury of being able to make that choice. |
| helios Jan 24, 2009 6:17 AM EDT |
Being a long-time advocate of KDE...with the new user in mind, now that the Big Guy has come out, I guess I can too. There were a couple of factors involved in my slow but assured flirtation with Gnome. Obviously the KDE 4.x nastiness. I cannot begin to enumerate my confusion and frustration with this "evolution", lest I begin a dissertation. Second, and most important, I am having to fix problems way too often with new users of Linux. I thought at first it was distro-related but as I expanded our use of different distros on these computers, I found that odd things break for seemingly no reason. Right now I have a landslide of complaints that the KDE panel has just disappeared...and no, alt-f2-kicker won't bring it back. The menu icon is still there but the rest of the panel is gone. So, no problem right? Just right click the kde start menu, click "add panel" and problem solved. Nope...not a single choice for the ability to rebuild the panel with apps. Drag and drop will not allow the insertion of application icons...I simply got tired of things breaking/new users tinkering past my ability to fix it. One or two is to be expected, but when the calls and emails begin to impede my ability to do anything else but answer them, it's time to present them with a less volatile desktop. Gnome would be that choice...at least until I can figure out this panel issue. h |
| tracyanne Jan 24, 2009 6:33 AM EDT |
This is KDE4 yu are talking about, I assume. |
| number6x Jan 24, 2009 11:21 AM EDT |
Sander, I know that I can replace the apps, I just tend to use XFCE on slack or debian instead and only add the Gnome apps I want. My point is that I don't understand the motivation and direction of the Gnome development team. If they were removing functionality but getting a smaller footprint and a faster desktop I could understand. But Gnome has less and isn't smaller and faster. (yes its smaller than KDE, but that hase always been true). Back in 1997 I was really excited by a GNU Object/Model Environment. Somewhere where cut and paste and other basic shared functionality could be uniform across all X apps. Gnome is nice, but I just don't get where its going. I don't mind less functional environments as long as I gain disk space, memory or speed. I think they need a clear goal and direction, then work toward it. I still have hope. (I don't mean to sound bitter, I just don't get where they are going) |
| gus3 Jan 24, 2009 3:41 PM EDT |
#6x: a small nit-pick. It's the "GTK+ Network Object Model Environment". In fact, when it's all expanded out, it becomes the "GNU's Not Unix Image Manipulation Project Tool Kit Network Object Model Environment." |
| tuxchick Jan 24, 2009 3:46 PM EDT |
Ow, make it stop. Though my top nomination for the 'Thanks For the Needless Pain, Busters' list is KDE creating "k" konfusion between KDE files and kernel files. Geeks--- so smart, and yet so hopeless. |
| KernelShepard Jan 24, 2009 7:57 PM EDT |
gus: don't forget that you'd need to recursively expand the GNU ;-) |
| jacog Jan 25, 2009 4:29 AM EDT |
Hmmm, I was also in the KDE4=bad camp, and kind-of still am... but I popped it onto my laptop now, and I am determined to learn any and all tricks around it, perhaps alter my way of thinking, and just maybe perhaps come up with the most ideal configuration for it. |
| bigg Jan 25, 2009 9:01 AM EDT |
All this anti-KDE 4 complaining needs to be put into a book. Then those who tell others to use Linux can read it. To me, there's not much difference between the complaints about KDE 4 being different from KDE 3 than complaints about Linux being a piece of crap because it's different from Windows. Personally, I've never liked KDE 3, but in the bit I've played with it, I like KDE 4 minus a few bugs that are still being fixed. Quoting:I hate the fact that my right button doesn't do what I want it to do. And if he were a Windows user, he would be getting flamed right now. |
| dinotrac Jan 25, 2009 9:16 AM EDT |
bigg - Maybe it's not different. Windows is a piece of crap, too. The KDE team really screwed the pooch on this one, and I can only hope they recover. GNOME has never warmed my heart. The KDE base has always been quick to move to new releases -- and that has meant substantial change along the way. Try finding an old copy of KDE 1.x and put it up next to KDE 3. The difference is that, in the past, the KDE team gave a rat's behind about their user community. This time around, not so much. |
| KernelShepard Jan 25, 2009 10:34 AM EDT |
dinotrac: I'm pretty sure KDE4 will recover, there's a lot of motivated/talented hackers in the KDE community. Let's not forget that the GNOME devs "screwed the pooch" back with GNOME 2.0 as well. They were able to recover a few releases later, and I suspect the same will be true of KDE. I think it might also be a bit unfair to say that they don't care about the user community. IIRC, when 4.0 was released, it came with a big warning that they didn't feel it was ready for end-users yet and that it was meant as a developer release (probably to motivate the guys still hacking on 3.5 stuff to get their butts in gear and port their apps to 4.0). I've seen this kind of thing happen a number of times. It was probably a mistake for KDE to release it as a 4.0 (more because the public perception of such a version number suggests readiness than anything else), but I can certainly imagine that a lot of the devs were lagging behind because they were waiting for some sort of light to turn green that said "uh, hey guys, we're at 4.0, get a move on already!". I have a soft spot for FLOSS developers; I don't like to see hostility toward hard-working gents. (note that I know you weren't trying to be hostile or anything, I'm just saying I've seen a lot of anti-KDE hostility and think it a bit unfair is all) |
| Scott_Ruecker Jan 25, 2009 12:53 PM EDT |
If I am not mistaken KDE 4 is almost a complete re-write no? They were prepared for people not liking all the changes they made because KDE 4 sets them up for the future. I have tried KDE 4 on a live distro a couple of times and the only thing for me is my complete and total addiction to Konqueror as my file manager. When I have to use Windows, after about five minutes all I can think about is what a buggy and crippled and counterproductive Windows file manager is compared to Konqueror. I am not even close to knowing how to use it to its fullest extent but it doesn't matter because it does what I want it too. The only time I am frustrated using it is when I have messed up, not Konqueror. There is nothing wrong with Dolphin, its just not the warm cozy blanket Konqueror is for me right no. I know you can make Konqueror the default file manager in 4.0 pretty easily which is exactly what I will do when I upgrade. I will be upgrading to KDE 4 sometime soon but I am really in no hurry, I have been content with 3.5 for some time. As far as I am concerned, Linus can use whatever he wants too. Besides, I doubt he cares about our opinions on it. I figure that as long as he isn't switching to Windows, he's cool. |
| TxtEdMacs Jan 25, 2009 2:55 PM EDT |
Psst ... Scott ... Scott over here by the garbage dump. Been doing some research. The word through the half-eaten grape vine is Linus is lugging a big* Mac around everywhere**. Please keep it quiet. We are sure it is a passing phase. Who knows what he will do when the new moon is here. * maybe more than one No Airs or minis for him ** trying now to get a good photographic proof |
| jacog Jan 25, 2009 3:30 PM EDT |
A Big Mac?? Pah, now I am hungry, |
| jezuch Jan 25, 2009 3:50 PM EDT |
I installed KDE4 on my work laptop. It had an uneventful ride since then. But maybe that's because I don't really use "KDE" -- the only KDE apps I have always open (besides the desktop and panel and stuff) are Konsole and KMail, which are almost perfectly polished (now if only Konsole remembered open tabs on logout...). I don't think I've used Dolphin even once. The only thing I curse is the nvidia driver, which prevents me from using desktop effects. |
| number6x Jan 25, 2009 5:15 PM EDT |
Linus has used Macs for years. He really preferd the PowerPC platform over intel and used Linux on Power as his main machine for quite a while. He probably had a good encounter with NeXT sometime in his life. |
| tracyanne Jan 25, 2009 7:12 PM EDT |
I've been setting up various versions of Ubuntu, and EeBuntu seems to run best on this old Toshiba Saltilite (with only 256 meg of RAM) but i cannot for the life of me get either Win32 Codecs to install nor libDVDCss, I'm not all that impressed with Ubuntu anymore. I can't even find a reference to Win32s or libDVDCss in the package manage, and I do gave MediBuntu set up in repositories. from this I'm assuming Quicktime won't work either. Anyone who can help please. It's so damn easy in Mandriva, just surf to easyurpmi, select your version and architecture, and auto install the PLF repositories across the net. |
| ColonelPanik Jan 25, 2009 7:29 PM EDT |
ta, Maybe: http://www.r3uk.co.uk/index.php/home/36-useful-information/7... http://forum.eeeuser.com/viewtopic.php?id=875 |
| montezuma Jan 25, 2009 7:41 PM EDT |
Or http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=766683 |
| tracyanne Jan 25, 2009 8:33 PM EDT |
@montezuma: That tells me that the codecs won't show up in the package manager, which is why I can't find them there. That sucks. No wonder all these new Linux users who are trying Linux via Ubuntu complain so bitterly about there being no codecs for Win32 and other codecs and that you can't play commercial movies on Linux. You have to know that there is a right question and what it is. It's so damn drop dead easy to set up those codecs in Mandriva. |
| montezuma Jan 25, 2009 9:08 PM EDT |
TA, I followed the instructions and can view most anything including quicktime, wmv etc etc etc and encrypted dvds. The win32 codecs are in the package w32codecs. They are all on my Ubuntu system. I'm not sure what is going wrong for you??? |
| tracyanne Jan 25, 2009 9:36 PM EDT |
@ montezuma installed them using the instructions at the link you gave me, it all works fine now. What I was complaining about was that even after I had added medibuntu to the repositories list last night, I was unable to find the relevent packages in the package manager. a search for codec got me a whole bunch of stuff, none of which mentioned W32 or Win32 and nothing that mentioned libdvdcss when searching on libdvdcss or even when searching on libdvd |
| montezuma Jan 25, 2009 9:47 PM EDT |
TA, The medibuntu repo can be a bit flakey at times. Maybe it was down when you updated your package list. I suspect that for legal reasons (particularly in the US) there is a separation between Canonical and Medibuntu. That's why the server can be slow and down sometimes. |
| tracyanne Jan 25, 2009 10:21 PM EDT |
monte, that isn't a problem I have with Mandriva's PLF repositories, and just like Canonical and Medibuntu, there is the same separation between Mandriva and PLF Also I've done other Debian based installs before and they too were nowhere near as obscure as the Ubuntu based set up. |
| montezuma Jan 25, 2009 10:35 PM EDT |
TA, Shrug. I've used this Ubuntu media codec install on close to 20 boxes now. Very fast and never had an issue. You must have been unlucky. |
| ColonelPanik Jan 25, 2009 11:14 PM EDT |
Tracyanne, When you have used buntu as many hours as you have used Mandriva then this stuff will be dead simple. |
| tracyanne Jan 25, 2009 11:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:Also I've done other Debian based installs before and they too were nowhere near as obscure as the Ubuntu based set up. In addition a seach of the repositories using the package manager STILL reveals no packages with w32 or w32codec or Win 32 or libdvdcss in the name or in the description. I know they are installed because the media plays. |
| krisum Jan 26, 2009 11:34 AM EDT |
Looks like the medibuntu repository has not been setup correctly. If you start "System->Administration->Software Sources" do you see a line like "http://packages.medibuntu.org intrepid free non-free" in the "Third Party Software" tab? Both w32codecs and libdvdcss2 should be visible in the package manager if medibuntu repository is setup correctly. Btw, for most media it is not necessary to install w32codecs since the ffmpeg codecs can play them fine (installing "ubuntu-restricted-extras" should do) which is probably media is playing without w32codecs being installed. |
| krisum Jan 26, 2009 11:53 AM EDT |
Of course, you also need to refresh the repository information (using Reload in synaptic or sudo apt-get update). |
| tracyanne Jan 26, 2009 4:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:Looks like the medibuntu repository has not been setup correctly. If you start "System->Administration->Software Sources" do you see a line like "http://packages.medibuntu.org intrepid free non-free" in the "Third Party Software" tab? Emphatically, yes. Quoting:Of course, you also need to refresh the repository information I've done this several times. |
| montezuma Jan 27, 2009 9:58 AM EDT |
TA,
Sounds like you have some kind of package database problem to me. What output do you get if you try sudo apt-get install w32codecs That command will tell you if apt-get thinks the package is installed or not Also try looking at the bottom of the file /var/log/dpkg.log There might be some interesting error messages. |
| jacog Jan 27, 2009 11:52 AM EDT |
Yah, well... in Mandriva, setting up the PLF repository is a matter of going to http://easyurpmi.zarb.org/ and clicking on the link to add the repo. It prompts you for a password, and voila. Feel free to argue what bad security practise this is for new users, but it's no worse than letting people cut and paste sudo commands into terminals. |
| azerthoth Jan 27, 2009 12:17 PM EDT |
Whats one of the things holding desktop Linux back? Not that if it's easy or hard to get your multimedia working, it's that you have to do it at all. Use a distro that either A: isn't based in a country that doesn't subscribe the the US's anti-consumer laws, or B: a distro that doesn't pander to the same anti-consumer laws. Those distro's do exist. |
| number6x Jan 27, 2009 2:11 PM EDT |
My last computer purchase was just about 1 year ago (Feb. '08). A laptop with Linux pre-installed. It came with the ability to play encrypted DVD's, thanks to the OEM who included a licensed version of LinDVD. For the ability to play other media, I had to enable the restricted drivers checkbox. These are codec that are free as in beer, but are not re-distributable like real honest to goodness software (GPL, BSD, etc). It is a Dell 1420n. I would prefer a more realistic solution, but OEM's are providing what the consumer demands. Just keep growing the numbers and the codecs and drivers will follow to fill the demand. It is not a technical issue. |
| tracyanne Jan 27, 2009 4:27 PM EDT |
@montezuma: The CODECs are installed. I can play WMAs MP3s and whatch encrypeted movies. Synaptic just doesn't know that they exist at all. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jan 27, 2009 5:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:The CODECs are installed. I can play WMAs MP3s and whatch encrypeted movies. Synaptic just doesn't know that they exist at all. So the system brought them in NOT as .deb packages but just dumped the executables in the appropriate directories ... or as browser plugins? It's all too confusing. |
| tracyanne Jan 27, 2009 5:34 PM EDT |
I don't Know about how they were brought in. I did the usual Ubuntu sudo apt-get etc (from instructions at Ubuntu help pages). dance in the command line, and the commandline feed back told me I was installing .deb packages. The repositories are listing as selected in Synaptic, but a search for the packages using w32 or win32 doesn't reveal any win32 codecs, and for libdvdcss using libdvd doesn't reveal any package for libdvdcss. |
| theboomboomcars Jan 27, 2009 5:58 PM EDT |
tracyanne I think you accidentally installed the kooky kangaroo version of Ubuntu. When I search for libdvd it brings up libdvdcss2, but I don't have the mediabuntu? repository enabled... I don't know if I have the win32 codecs or something else installed but I am able to play media files, synaptic doesn't find win32 codecs at all for me either. |
| tracyanne Jan 27, 2009 6:14 PM EDT |
@theboomboomcars: on debian systems it's usually w32 |
| montezuma Jan 27, 2009 7:26 PM EDT |
TA, So what does sudo apt-get install w32codecs give? Usually synaptic just acts as a gui frontend to apt-get so to get to the bottom of the problem use the cli i.e. apt-get |
| ColonelPanik Jan 27, 2009 8:57 PM EDT |
From the Ubuntu Pocket Guide: If software needs additional packages to be installed, it is said to depend on the other packages. If the dependency packages aren’t installed, the software just won’t work. In fact, you won’t even be allowed to install the software. APT’s job is to take care of dependencies, and it does so automatically and largely invisibly. It is aware of what a particular package requires and will automatically add any necessary packages to the tally for download and installation from the repositories. My guess is that win32 codecs and libdvd2 were dependencies of Mediabuntu |
| tracyanne Jan 27, 2009 9:01 PM EDT |
@montezuma: it installs the CODECs, like I said before. I also can't find PlayOnLinux via Synaptic, even though i have the repository for it installed, but PlayOnLinux most definately did install after i did the sudo apt-get install playonlinux dance in the command line. |
| jdixon Jan 27, 2009 9:45 PM EDT |
> I also can't find PlayOnLinux via Synaptic, even though i have the repository for it installed, but PlayOnLinux most definately did install after i did the sudo apt-get install playonlinux dance in the command line. If apt-get is working but Synaptic isn't, then it sounds like Synaptic is broken somehow. Yeah, Private Obvious here at your service. Now if I could tell you how it might be broken, then we'd be getting somewhere, :( |
| Scott_Ruecker Jan 27, 2009 10:44 PM EDT |
Please forgive me, but Tracy's issues with Ubuntu are EXACTLY why I used it for about a week. I don't think I ever got all, if any, of the win32 codecs to work like they should. And it took me a week to get it to that point. I got tired of not being able to see and hear anything and moved on.. Not to mention my Ubuntu Bane, no separate, real, actual, root login like every other Linux distro has... That still kicks me in the pants. |
| montezuma Jan 27, 2009 11:07 PM EDT |
TA, Did some reading. There are two search options on synaptic. One is Quick Search which has the text box on the menubar. The other is the regular Search button to the right of Quick Search. I always use the second one. Apparently it has the same database as apt but Quick Search has a different database to apt. Try using the regular search...... This change to Quick Search was made in Debian last year sometime and is now in Ubuntu... |
| tracyanne Jan 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT |
@monte: Oh..... |
| ColonelPanik Jan 27, 2009 11:59 PM EDT |
Scott, Root login is not set up by default but its easy to do and you can
set it up for root login from the regular login screen. Assign a root password To be able to log in as root directly, you must assign a root password. This can be done with: sudo passwd root Afterwards, you can use su to get a root prompt. You would then use the root password. In Gnome: System>Administration>Login Window>Security>check the Allow Local System Administrator Login http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Intrepid |
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