ye gawds what a FUDsterpiece
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick Dec 30, 2008 1:32 PM EDT |
Read Mr. Ts'o's actual blog-- it sounds like it came straight from Redmond: Hitler, religion, zealots, idolatrists, and he makes some amazing leaps of cause and effect, like aiming for a 100% Free distribution is why the Debian project is so tolerant of trolls and jerks. It's like so many people say-- it's Linux's friends that hurt it the most. |
| herzeleid Dec 30, 2008 2:08 PM EDT |
But one must admit that Ted's voice does carry some weight, as he is one of the OG hackers, having been involved with linux kernel development since the mid 90s, back in his MIT days. |
| tuxchick Dec 30, 2008 2:30 PM EDT |
That makes it even worse, herzeleid. If the lead Linux kernel devs are so anti-Free software, anti-GPL, and illogical to boot, what does that mean for the future of the Linux kernel? The Linux Foundation and other corporate interests control kernel development, and have for some time. |
| dinotrac Dec 30, 2008 3:33 PM EDT |
>Ultimately, I consider people to be more important than computers, hardware or software. >If Debian Developer took the some kind of Code of Conduct at least as seriously as the Social Contract, I think interactions between Debian Developers would be far more efficient, and in the end the project would be far more successful. That's pretty darned radical stuff that has no place in the free software community. |
| montezuma Dec 30, 2008 4:58 PM EDT |
I found it weird how the Ubuntu Code of Conduct which I view as a big positive feature of Ubuntu was conflated with being less obsessed with Free Software issues. "Pragmatism" is a separate issue to civility. One can be principled but civil and sensitive. Why the linking of separate issues? I wouldn't jump from that to Redmond and Hitler but the logic (as reported) is certainly faulty. |
| dinotrac Dec 30, 2008 5:15 PM EDT |
monte - Pragmatism and civility are not the same thing, but they are related in many contexts. FOSS is one of them. Rigidity tends to lead to frustration tends to lead to incivility. Arrogance + rigidity leads directly to incivility. |
| tuxchick Dec 30, 2008 5:31 PM EDT |
Maybe so dino, but this particular article is inflammatory and illogical, a real Enderle-quality diatribe. It's interesting to me that the attacks on Free software are coming so consistently, and from so many different directions. What is it about Free software that bothers so many people? Mr. Ts'o equates a firm commitment to Free software to a host of bad things, which is just plain wrong. Though I can understand being irritated at hearing the same old propaganda over and over and flaming the people who are repeating it for the zillionth time-- yeah, why not be rude when people who should know better are spouting it. His biggest error is confusing pragmatism with expediency-- there is nothing pragmatic about turning a blind eye to closed, proprietary kernel blobs. It's hardly even expedient, because they're the cause of so many problems for both devs and users. |
| TxtEdMacs Dec 30, 2008 5:41 PM EDT |
monte..., RE: incivility Take it on faith, dino is an expert on the topic. TC, Ts'o ==[=] an Enderle !!!??? Say it isn't 'so. |
| tuxchick Dec 30, 2008 6:04 PM EDT |
Sorry TxtEdMacs, that was harsh. I take it back :) |
| montezuma Dec 30, 2008 6:13 PM EDT |
Dino,
I think you can easily make the opposite case as well. Someone without principles is likely to be overly self interested and consequently uncivil. Steve Ballmer and a chair just popped into my head for some reason. Bottom line in my view is that the argument made about Debian using the positive lessons of Ubuntu overreached. You could easily introduce a Code of Conduct in Debian to restrain the flaming without sacrificing all that is good in the Debian community model. |
| TxtEdMacs Dec 30, 2008 7:27 PM EDT |
monte..., What? if (Ballmer + chair + head) { nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp; Concussion("one zuma") = "SmashedHead"; } else { nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp; No And/If/But/OrElse; } All quite brutal. |
| dinotrac Dec 30, 2008 7:45 PM EDT |
monte - It is not a binary world. There are many choices between being rigidly dogmatic and having no principles. |
| montezuma Dec 30, 2008 8:24 PM EDT |
Dino,
Of course. I was simply arguing "pragmatism" and civility are not necessarily correlated. Thus a civilized Debian based on FSF principles is entirely possible. ;-) All hypothetical of course................ (Shudders from Debian mailing list memories) |
| dinotrac Dec 30, 2008 9:01 PM EDT |
monte - Absolutely. |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 30, 2008 10:23 PM EDT |
I've been burned by Debian at one point allowing a binary blob and then taking it away. Who doesn't love having a piece of hardware work one minute, then not after an update? In my case it was an embedded sound chip in a laptop. I found the fix in a Debian bug report, downloaded the source and compiled it myself. I would much rather the system ship without blobs but allow the user to choose whether or not he or she wants them on a case-by-case basis — and then offer to download and install them for you. I know Ubuntu does this in some cases. OpenBSD does, too. Some ports, including the Java developer's kit, instruct you to download the relevant packages. Freedom is great. I want freedom. But I really, really want the freedom to be the user's. Let the user decide what they want to run and install. Educate them, write new, open drivers if you can, but otherwise give them a free distro with the freedom to actually use it with their hardware. |
| dinotrac Dec 30, 2008 10:46 PM EDT |
Steven - That's why I stopped using Debian and have never gone back. When the QT license was at issue, my KDE desktop got hosed and I found it to be more trouble than it was worth staying current. My workstation is a computing tool, with any political/philosophical statements subservient to its utility. As such, I have no desire to subject myself to a distribution whose political whims may make my life hell. |
| number6x Dec 31, 2008 10:47 AM EDT |
"FUDsterpiece" Thats classic! I sprayed coffee. This week on FUDsterpiece Theater, Ted Ts'o examines his inner daemons and questions his relationship with Linux. |
| vainrveenr Dec 31, 2008 12:49 PM EDT |
Quoting:I've been burned by Debian at one point allowing a binary blob and then taking it away.Indeed, a limited indictment of both Debian and Ubuntu, ssss/bboo! Separate snippets specifically significant for binary blobs placed in Debian and Ubuntu are from Bruce Byfield's piece 'Seven Most Influential GNU/Linux Distributions' linked via LXer at http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/114259/index.html Debian Quoting:This [main,contrib,non-free repositories'] system allows users to choose the high dependability of official releases, or to choose the balance between cutting edge software and dependability that they prefer. Similarly, the subdivisions allow users to choose the level of software freedom on their systems.Ubuntu Quoting:Until recently, Ubuntu has faced little criticism. However, in the last year, some free software users have complained about the use of non-free drivers in one or two releases, while others have voiced concerns about the increasing move towards commercialization of the distribution.It would seem from the top snippet and these two for Debian and Ubuntu that the commentator has been and will be less than 100% satisfied with both of these two distros (perhaps something of an understatement for Ubuntu.) And this commentator's partial dissatisfaction with these particular distros has little to do with the notorious "minimum of politeness" of Debian's, upon which others have already commented above. ----- AAMOF, Patrick Volkerding's Slackware may very well be the ideal GNU/Linux distro that avoids pitfalls such as the accidental/intended inclusion of binary blobs and the notoriety of the Debian-dev community's absolute "minimum of politeness". Slackware Quoting: It has a long, well-deserved philosophy as a stone geek's distribution. This reputation is based on its use of a command-line installer and utilities and an avoidance of anything that could be considered bloated software -- including GNOME and OpenOffice.org. Instead of providing graphical interfaces, Slackware requires direct editing of GNU/Linux's text-based configuration files. And, instead of providing a package system, Slackware continues to rely on compressed tar files, with no mechanism for resolving dependencies.Based upon this snippet of Byfield's piece, it seems Slackware highly fits the bill for someone who truly wants Quoting:the freedom to be the user's. Let the user decide what they want to run and install. Educate them, write new, open drivers if you can, but otherwise give them a free distro with the freedom to actually use it with their hardware.Fairly clear that Volkerding's Slackware presides over both Ts'o et al and Shuttleworth & Co. in this respect. |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 31, 2008 3:14 PM EDT |
I'm not indicting Ubuntu at all. While Ubuntu does ship with more binary blobs than I might be comfortable with, if I have hardware that doesn't have a free, open driver, I would rather use that hardware with a blob than not use it at all. If my sound chip that first worked, then didn't in Lenny was something I could swap out, I would. But since it's embedded in the laptop motherboard, I couldn't just stand on principle and go without sound. I was somewhat happy to find the solution to the problem in a Debian bug report. But sending me on a wild Google goose chase is bad. I'd rather that the OS alert me to my hardware's situation and offer solutions without me having to search around for it. That said, in my view Ubuntu, Debian and Slackware remain towering achievements in the world of free, open-source software, and I'm damn glad we have them. |
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