Where would we be without Ubuntu?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 26, 2008 4:50 PM EDT |
It'd be a very different world without Ubuntu. Would there be another distro filling that gap? |
| caitlyn Dec 26, 2008 5:23 PM EDT |
Before Ubuntu was the big bad distro everyone loved to hate it was Red Hat. Red Hat (and later Fedora) was too big, too dominant, too commercial. Like Ubuntu they were compared to Microsoft. Like Ubuntu it was all B.S. Yes, another distro would have filled the gap, most likely Fedora (arguably about as popular as Ubuntu) or openSUSE. They may still do. Linux distros do go in and out of fashion. I use the word "fashion" deliberately because the reasons seem to have little to do with technical merit. I don't think Ubuntu is the best at anything except hype. I also don't think they are particularly bad at anything. |
| herzeleid Dec 26, 2008 5:41 PM EDT |
@ caitlyn - I respectfully disagree with your position that ubuntu is all hype. I've been a full time linux user since 1993, and I've used a lot of distros, I started with sls, then spent several years each with slackware, redhat. fedora and suse. I've migrated to ubuntu on all my desktop machines and my home servers, but still administer suse servers elsewhere. IMHO ubuntu has greatly enhanced the usability and appeal of the linux desktop, not only for newbies, but also for old linux bigots like me. I love the solid package management, and I appreciate the fact that for the most part everything "just works". If the enemies of ubuntu would put their efforts into trying to do an even better job than canonical, rather than trying to tear them down, they would be much more productive. |
| tracyanne Dec 26, 2008 6:01 PM EDT |
Quoting:If the enemies of ubuntu would put their efforts into trying to do an even better job than canonical, rather than trying to tear them down, they would be much more productive. Does it make me an enemy of Canonical when I point out that Ubuntu is not the easist to use Distribution out there, that it is not the first to make ease of use a priority, and that in spite of the rhetoric it still falls short of Mandriva, the first distribution to make ease of use on the desktop a priority. Where would we be without Ubuntu, good question. Ubuntu has certainly given Linux a much wider audience, not all of the recognition is good, however, as Linux generically is as often as not blamed for Ubuntu's short comings, as far too many people who have heard of Linux because of Ubuntu associate Linux as another name for Ubuntu. On balance though, I think we are better off because of Ubuntu, the fact of Canonical and Ubuntu has given Linux much more exposure, Mandriva or Mandrake dropped the ball several years back when due to bad management they filed for bankruptcy protection, and are still slowly trading their way out, so Mandriva, in spite of a better quality product, could never have given Linux this much exposure. So I guess better off, would be the answer. |
| bigg Dec 26, 2008 6:07 PM EDT |
I also agree that there is (or at least was) something special about Ubuntu. 1999 or 2000 I tried to get Linux working. I was RTFM'd out of the Linux community with lots of links to Eric Raymond's newbie-friendly writings defining what is intelligent and what is not. 2002 I installed Red Hat, and even got it working. Tried Debian and Suse, but neither would work. The Red Hat package management, to put it nicely, needed help. The documentation was okay but I still didn't manage to find helpful forums - they just weren't newbie-friendly. I played with my RH box but couldn't use it for anything serious. 2004 I install Ubuntu. It's a lot of fun and I can actually use it for work. The forums have an explicit "no RTFM" rule. The repos actually have most of what I need, they're fast, and the package management is very solid. I begin to understand what is great about Linux. 2005 I installed 5.04, found the new user's guide, and in a couple of weeks I'm basically done booting into Windows. By 2006 I'm mostly free of proprietary software and by 2007 I use zero proprietary apps, including all of my work. I tried every which way I could to get rid of Windows. Only Ubuntu made that possible. It raised the standard a lot in terms of new user friendliness and just had a professionalism that none of the others had. These days we take it for granted. I personally find that to be rewriting history. Mark Shuttleworth does deserve a ton of credit. |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 26, 2008 7:45 PM EDT |
We're in serious YMMV territory when we talk about one distro being more useful/usable than all others. It all depends on the hardware you have and what you want to do with it. What Ubuntu has done is build up a huge, friendly community and done a ton of publicity for Linux. OK, it's mostly publicity for Ubuntu, but once you get a bite of the apple (not to be confused with Apple), the rest of the Linux and FOSS world is there for you to sample. I can cite many examples where Ubuntu wasn't the best solution to a given hardware/task combination, but I can also think of many situations where Ubuntu acquits itself well. The same is true of any given distro. While the "free" documentation that comes with Ubuntu is quite unspectacular — and that's where I could/would contribute time if I was so moved — there are seemingly dozens of books out there to help newbies and others get Ubuntu up and working. Those Ubuntu forums are friendly, all right. You don't always get the quality of answer (i.e. a correct one) that you hoped for, but due to sheer volume your chances of getting a problem solved can be fairly good. If Canonical can manage to keep going and growing, and then get some major preinstall deals done over the next few years, the momentum for Ubuntu (and hopefully the quality along with it) can only build. Since there's no money on the desktop, Red Hat has pretty much chosen to stay out of Canonical's way. That Red Hat Global Desktop (with CODECs taken care of) never happened. Can't say the same for the server side, where Ubuntu is going after Red Hat's customers big time. I can't say whether or not they'll get them, but it shows that Canonical has come to play. Windows XP is OK, except when you start beating on it like I do. When I'm working, I have two or three Web browsers open at a time. I usually have a lightweight image editor (Irfanview) and a text editor (Notepad ++) running as well. Not exactly "power user" territory. I guess opening more than a few browser windows is my downfall ... I've been running out of memory on an extremely regular basis, and solely to preserve my sanity, I'll be spending the next month or so doing more of my office computing on FOSS platforms (Linux and OpenBSD at present). I already do everything at home on either FOSS OSes or Mac OS X, (and version 10.3 of that is getting harder to run all the time; no Firefox 3 or even an updated Safari until I upgrade to 10.4 — thanks for that, Apple). |
| jdixon Dec 26, 2008 8:19 PM EDT |
> Where would we be without Ubuntu? I'd be the same place I've been for the past 14 years: Using Slackware. |
| nikkels Dec 26, 2008 11:13 PM EDT |
>Where would we be without Ubuntu In the 2 years that I am using PCLinuxOS I regulary install the new Kubuntus, Mandrivas and Suses when they come out. I never could find any thing better than what I am using now So, that's where I would be........> PCLinuxOS |
| garymax Dec 26, 2008 11:16 PM EDT |
jdixon Hear, hear!! |
| azerthoth Dec 27, 2008 4:03 AM EDT |
Lets see, where would I be ... probably right where I am. Gentoo/Sabayon/Funtoo. |
| montezuma Dec 27, 2008 1:39 PM EDT |
I've used Ubuntu continually for 4 years and the complaint I have is bugs but it is unclear where the culprit is. I have had many bugs caused by various regressions in the kernel and many others by upstream problems (abiword, open office, f-spot etc etc etc). Fewer bugs have been from Ubuntu specific causes.
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What to do about this? Well the Ubuntu 6 month release cycle does not help on the regression front since often the kernels they use have not been subjected to extensive scrutiny. IIUC Slackware and Debian are much more conservative in this respect. That is well and good but I have often found the need to use a very recent kernel in order to get certain hardware working properly. So the trade-off is possibly between stability and hardware support. One might imagine then if one is using "old" hardware that a more conservative distro would be a better choice. OTOH if you have a very new laptop Ubuntu (or Mandriva etc) might be a better choice. As far as upstream bugs go similar comments apply. The tradeoff is again between stability and features. Beyond all that is the familiarity factor. Most people I know appear to stick with one main distro and possibly "fiddle" with others. This doesn't really allow for either objectivity or for flexibility. How can someone who has used Slack or Mandriva consistently for many years judge Ubuntu properly? You need to live with the distro for several months to properly assess it since you have to get used to all the quirks. One thing that irritates me about Ubuntu criticism is the canard that it is for newbies. Since Ubuntu is at heart just a modified Debian this is just not correct. Any complex development task could be equally well completed on either system. I have tried both and there is little difference in bloat or speed and certainly there is very little difference in available dev tools. |
| caitlyn Dec 27, 2008 3:11 PM EDT |
@herzeleid: I think our mutually respectful disagreement centers on two points; 1. You talk about ease of use, something I see as very important. The difference seems to be that you see Ubuntu as in a class by itself in this category. I don't find it to be easier to use than a number of other distros even for newcomers. I don't see Ubuntu as any easier than Mandriva, for example. 2. You say Ubuntu "just works". My experience is exactly the opposite. For me every release since Feisty Fawn has had bugs that ranged from really annoying to absolute show stoppers. Every distro has some bugs somewhere. Ubuntu, at least on my hardware, has had more serious ones than the average distro. I do realize that this is very much an issue that varies with hardware and with usage patterns so I don't discount your experience. "It works for me" doesn't equal "it wrrks for everyone". I wish it did. Ubuntu isn't a bad distro but I just don't see it as a great one either. |
| hkwint Dec 27, 2008 3:14 PM EDT |
Well, I have tried Ubuntu once or twice, most of it worked, and some did not. Same for my Suse, Knoppix, Slackware, Gentoo, Sabayon, SimplyMEPIS, Debian and FreeBSD experiences. So technically speaking it's not better than most other distro's; though for a noob like me it was easier than NetBSD and OpenBSD I have to admit. I got rather tired of some of Ubuntu's flaws - a year or two ago - and stopped using it (on somebody else's laptop that was), left a bit disillusioned. "If this is what I was waiting for, it sure is a disappointment" I remember myself thinking. But at least the package manager worked, quite in contrary to OpenSuse back then. What it does have is approachability, both the community and the docs I think; and you can receive a CD for free. That's not an issue for most people in LXer forums I think, but there are those out there in India working with dial-in connections; and for them it's a huge plus. Heck, even our family in 2005 here in the Netherlands, with almost the highest broadband penetration of the globe, had a download-limit which made it cheaper to buy Gentoo on 4CD's and receive it by regular post than downloading it. Another reason Ubuntu is popular, and I'm sorry I have to say it, is because the Debian developers screwed up with their never-coming releases; so people who thought about trying Linux needed an alternative. And the fact that there is a rich guy and a company behind it doing some promo also helps; otherwise Ubuntu would be not different than PCLinuxOS I guess. |
| Scott_Ruecker Dec 27, 2008 3:23 PM EDT |
If Ubuntu was easier to use, if it was even in the ballpark to PCLinuxOS's ease of use and installation, I would probably still use it. But between the no real root profile and total Gnome preference (even in Kubuntu I have to install almost all the Gnome libraries by default) and if I choose not to install the Gnome libraries, it won't install period or will be a completely useless and unfixable system. It was just not my cup of tea after about two weeks of banging on it. You want ease of use, PCLOS and by proxy Mandriva are the ones to beat. PCLOS is the ONLY distro I have had someone who has never messed with Linux be able to install on their own machine successfully. The only one, ever. That is what I would call "ease of use". When the user is all but clueless and they can still get it to work? That's impressive. |
| tracyanne Dec 27, 2008 6:09 PM EDT |
@Scott, is the install process of PCLOS different from the Mandriva one? On second thoughts I can find out for myself. |
| ColonelPanik Dec 27, 2008 6:18 PM EDT |
Ubuntu works fine, and I am living proof that anyone can use it. If it doesn't, the
fixes are easy and the help from the interwebs is fast and friendly. PCLOS, It does some neat stuff, best wireless setup going. Want to network a printer? PCLOS is the best for printing. But I have to say that the online help is the worst evar. I would rather call a cable company than post on the PCLOS forum. One other thing, PCLOS has to be the ugliest distro bar none. Use whatever distro you want, have fun, enjoy. But just because you like it does not mean that every one will want to run it. There is no "best" distro! But y'all just keep beating that dead horse. |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 27, 2008 9:10 PM EDT |
Quoting:... between the no real root profile and total Gnome preference (even in Kubuntu I have to install almost all the Gnome libraries by default) and if I choose not to install the Gnome libraries, it won't install period or will be a completely useless and unfixable system. Scott, you're right about all the GNOME that Ubuntu sticks into Kubuntu. What it does is provide a lot of consistency across the various Ubuntu flavors. Even Xubuntu, based on Xfce, has a whole lotta GNOME in it. Debian with KDE doesn't have any of that GNOMEishness, and of course neither does Slackware. I've been getting a Ubuntu 8.04 laptop ready for my daughter, and after the last update, I used it for work a whole day and it didn't die even once. OK, there was the time I knocked the power cable out of the laptop (the battery has been long dead), but other than that 8.04 seems to be more solid than ever in my install. As far as no root account, you can probably add it to Ubuntu. I'm very happy with sudo, and I install and implement it on all my boxes in whatever system I happen to be running. On OpenBSD, even with sudo there are still times when the root password is required, such as when setting up CUPS printing. Frankly, I'd rather use sudo for everything. Sudo is especially great on a server, where the admin can set up very finely grained privileges for any number of accounts and not grant more access or power than is required for each individual user. In my view, using the root account is akin to having a sledge hammer around a lot of unprotected thumbs. One thing that's kind of unusual about Debian anyway is that I don't think you can run a X session as root. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Debian experts.) |
| herzeleid Dec 27, 2008 10:58 PM EDT |
> As far as no root account, you can probably add it to Ubuntu Yes, it's linux - all you have to do is set a root password. But I think sudo is a great idea and I've gotten used to it. In fact we use sudo at work - the admins don't have the root password, but they all have privileges as detailed in the sudoers file. Works just fine - but that's another story... |
| dinotrac Dec 28, 2008 9:09 AM EDT |
Scott, Steve: Amen. Kubuntu drives me crazy, and is soon to be replaced by opensuse 11.1 on my wife's workstation. I may keep mythbuntu on my myth box because it is a specialized distro, but it's made me grind my teeth more than a few times -- generally when I want to "tweak" hardware, add drivers newer than or not included in the distro, etc. I think Ubuntu is trying to be something other than -- "greater" than -- Linux. That's why kubuntu is so GNOME like. The ideal Ubuntu user asks, "Linus who?" |
| montezuma Dec 28, 2008 12:16 PM EDT |
Another aspect about Ubuntu is its sheer popularity. If I have a problem with a driver I google the name of it (and other relevant stuff) and what turns up? A whole bunch of links to either the Ubuntu forums or launchpad. Many of those links are useful because I am using Ubuntu specifically. As an example try googling uvcvideo my webcam driver which I had problems with due to a snafu with the latest kernel: 4/10 links on the first page are to Ubuntu specific information. That fact plus the huge forum is a real labor saver in sorting out problems. |
| tracyanne Dec 28, 2008 4:34 PM EDT |
I don't have a problem with installing GNOME alongside KDE, in fact my standard install of Mandriva has been, for years, actually since I started using Mandrake, to install both GNOME and KDE together, but run KDE as the desktop, it gives me a much better desktop. The reasons I don't like kubuntu are because 1) it doesn't live up to the hype (same as Ubuntu) 2) just like Ubuntu it usually requires some post install configuration 3) It doesn't have the easily accessible GUI toolset that Mandriva has. @montezuma, you mean here http://www.google.com.au/search?q=uvcvideo&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8... |
| bigg Dec 28, 2008 5:43 PM EDT |
> I think Ubuntu is trying to be something other than -- "greater" than -- Linux. I think that a few years ago when I started using Ubuntu, it was Debian with some of the rough edges sanded down. These days it's Debian plus some really weird tinkering for who knows what reason. I don't understand why Virtualbox with USB is so difficult to get working on Ubuntu, but not Debian, for example. There are too many of these failed 'greater than the rest of Linux' attempts for my taste. > As an example try googling uvcvideo my webcam driver which I had problems with due to a snafu with the latest kernel: 4/10 links on the first page are to Ubuntu specific information. That fact plus the huge forum is a real labor saver in sorting out problems. But as I came to realize, the quality of most of those posts leaves something to be desired. There might be only one post related to Slackware, but if that one is correct, it's the only one that's needed. If I post in the Slackware forums, the depth of knowledge of the respondents is impressive. Arch is even more impressive in this regard. The user community is obviously small compared to Ubuntu, but the users are different, they're mostly in their early 20's and have lots of time in mom's basement on Saturday nights to figure this stuff out. |
| krisum Dec 28, 2008 6:49 PM EDT |
Yes, Ubuntu's QA really leaves much to be desired so much so that it seems that releases are done with RC bugs. Unless they improve on this front, it will continue to overshadow any of their other advances. The USB bug mentioned ([url=https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/qemu/ bug/156085]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/qemu/ bug/156085[/url]) is typical of the way Ubuntu devs have been working in that some smart devs decided to drop support for /proc/bus/usb since it has been deprecated for some time without ensuring that even the supported virtualization solution in Ubuntu kvm/qemu works! For Virtualbox they can blame it on the closed-source parts, but USB in kvm/qemu is broken for three releases since Gutsy and continues to be broken to date without the workarounds. Regarding forums, I will have to disagree with bigg. Though it may be argued that the average quality of posts is not great but in all cases I have seen there is a solution (that works) to be found in the thread. In the end that is all that matters. |
| herzeleid Dec 28, 2008 7:43 PM EDT |
> Yes, Ubuntu's QA really leaves much to be desired Jeez, what is it with this non stop anti-ubuntu hype? Damn, it gets tedious. Please, if you're going to knock ubuntu, do let us know what you yourself run, so we can have some perspective. |
| dinotrac Dec 28, 2008 7:55 PM EDT |
herzeleid -- I run two Ubuntu boxes in my home network: a Mythbuntu 8.10 and a kubuntu gutsy. My personal workstation is opensuse 11.0. Soon, the kubuntu workstation will be running opensuse 11.1. I also have a couple of Ubuntu servers with a partner, but we are not going to mess with those. |
| krisum Dec 28, 2008 8:29 PM EDT |
I run ubuntu on three machines and debian/opensuse on one each. Now if only ubuntu developers as well as other ubuntu users care to take a hard look at whats plaguing them instead of dismissing such issues as "anti-Ubuntu hype". Sometime back, as a sample, I had posted three bugs introduced in hardy (192382 broken alsa on intel, 207072 broken smb browsing and 191889 broken firefox behaviour with non-nm managed connections) which I had encountered and would be considered RC in debian and all of which had known fixes in the hardy beta phase but still the hardy LTS went out with them. Incidentally two of them are still not fixed in intrepid and none in hardy -- though one of them can be claimed to be upstream bug I have not seen debian ship with such bugs and I will encourage you to see the respective bug discussions. Ubuntu being the current leader in desktop linux should hold itself up to higher standards, rather than being below average as far as bugs are considered (at least for the last 3-4 releases). |
| dinotrac Dec 28, 2008 8:32 PM EDT |
Krisum -- I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that Ubuntu, as a matter of policy, did not fix bugs in current releases. |
| tracyanne Dec 28, 2008 8:46 PM EDT |
@herz I have MythUbuntu as my media machine, I like it. I use Mandriva on my local fileserver, and Mandriva on my desktops. I regularly compare Ubuntu and Ubuntu derived distributions against Mandriva, while many are really good, the derivatives like Mint usually being better than Ubuntu itself, they often lack in comparison, which also means they don't live up to the hype. I don't use MythUbuntu the way I use my main desktop, it just sits there, and I might set various TV shows for recording, via the Myth GUI, I often whatch the shows from another computer, usually my personal desktop. Given that the server is administered via ssh, there is no reason why I couldn't use the Ubuntu server. The only good reason for using the same distribution for server and desktop is that I can have a local repository that all the machines can access for updates and patches, the Myth Ubuntu machine breaks that, but it does make installing Myth so much easier. |
| krisum Dec 28, 2008 8:51 PM EDT |
They do release fixes for major bugs in addition to security bugs -- 8.04.1 consolidated many of the bug fixes in hardy and has more relaxed constraints. I regularly see updates for hardy which cannot be considered critical bug fixes. The bugs I have mentioned, though, were all known in hardy beta phase and they lie unfixed to date -- not even a backport. |
| krisum Dec 28, 2008 8:52 PM EDT |
This is their official policy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates This is the relaxed policy for micro releases: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExc... |
| dinotrac Dec 29, 2008 12:12 AM EDT |
k - Thanks. |
| herzeleid Dec 29, 2008 12:32 AM EDT |
Thaks for the data points, all - As for my own little world, and apart from my own experience, I know several people who are long time linux users who have switched to ubuntu, because they claim that it "works better" with less hassle than distros they had been using. I also know someone who has been a linux admin for years but always used windows on the laptop/desktop. He had tried redhat, mandrake, suse, and others, but not until after he installed ubuntu hardy heron did he realize that he was not booting into microsoft windows anymore. I'm sure others here have their own favorite distro, and some no doubt have hard luck stories about how ubuntu didn't work on their particular hardware, but surely you don't imagine the whole ubuntu thing is all hype, smoke and mirrors, and hired shills? No, on the contrary, it really does work quite well for an awful lot of people. |
| tuxtom Dec 29, 2008 2:52 AM EDT |
Quoting:Where would we be without Ubuntu?Microsoft Windows |
| krisum Dec 29, 2008 7:11 AM EDT |
herzeleid, There is no doubt that ubuntu is one of the best out there, and personally I use it for it inherits many of debian's strengths. The point being made is that one of the areas where ubuntu requires much improvement is QA for their releases. This has, unfortunately, been deteriorating for past few releases and hardy was particularly bad. I was, for example, taken by a surprise when nss-ldap broke completely on upgrading to hardy which is supposed to be LTS (bug 155947; also see 219527) -- so naturally the question will arise as to how can such bugs pass QA, or is there any effective QA at all. Similarly on my home desktop I was hit by the three bugs mentioned before which were not there in gutsy, so the comparison being done is not of ubuntu against any other distro rather ubuntu against itself. I think it will be a good idea for the ubuntu devs to cut back on planned features and just concentrate on getting a solid release out with minimum of bugs. |
| dinotrac Dec 29, 2008 8:49 AM EDT |
herzeleid - Hired shills? I must have missed that part. There is nothing wrong with the fact that Ubuntu exists. If it works on your hardware, or you don't want a KDE that actually looks and works like KDE, it's fine. Mythbuntu is fine -- although it has caused me some hardware headaches, mostly because Ubuntu seems to find little "Ubuntisms" to throw into the mix for no reason other, it seems, than to confound somebody who wants to make things work that don't work out of the box. But CHEEEEE. I've used Debian, Red Hat, Suse, fedora, opensuse, pclinuxOS, etc,etc. Ubuntu is at best OK, and far from my first choice as a general use OS. |
| jdixon Dec 29, 2008 12:39 PM EDT |
> I've used Debian, Red Hat, Suse, fedora, opensuse, pclinuxOS... I've tried Debian, Red Hat, and Mandriva over the years. I've looked at Mepis, PCLinuxOS, and Ubuntu. None of them have offered me any significant reason to switch from Slackware. |
| dinotrac Dec 29, 2008 12:58 PM EDT |
jdixon - To be honest, I'd still be using Debian if it weren't for the QT dustup way back when. I only moved to SuSE when I found it hard to maintain a stable KDE desktop with Debian. Those days are long gone, but so is my allegiance to Debian. |
| tuxchick Dec 29, 2008 1:27 PM EDT |
I just want the interwebs to quit being so sucky. Is it a rule that Web programmers and designers are not allowed to acquire actual useful skills? This is what LXer looks like in Firefox 3.05: http://bratgrrl.com/firefoxsux.jpg Note the weird little dark artifacts between the different sections. This particular jumble is common: http://bratgrrl.com/firefoxsux1.jpg I don't know if it's Firefox being its usual second-class citizen on Linux, or Web page suckage, or what. It's getting old and boring to still have to struggle to read dommed Web sites, it's like being punished for wanting to actually visit them. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 29, 2008 3:28 PM EDT |
@TC: Looking at the HTML source of the LXer front page, I'd say it's a Firefox problem. The HTML is clean and quite straightforwards. Just plain old divs with a grey background and a 1px border. Does the same problem appear in FF 3.05 on Windows? (I recon it will since Gecko the rendering engine is platform agnostic). |
| jdixon Dec 29, 2008 3:56 PM EDT |
> Does the same problem appear in FF 3.05 on Windows? (I recon it will since Gecko the rendering engine is platform agnostic). It doesn't for me. Firefox 3.0.5 on Windows XP. My Linux box is at home, and I won't be back to check on it until Sunday. This is my work laptop. |
| bigg Dec 29, 2008 4:35 PM EDT |
I am running Slackware with FF 3.0.5 and don't see any such thing on either site. |
| rijelkentaurus Dec 29, 2008 5:01 PM EDT |
The latest Ubuntu, looks fine on mine. |
| tracyanne Dec 29, 2008 5:08 PM EDT |
I'm using FF 3.0.5 on my Mandriva rig at home, and on Windows XP at work, I don't see those artefacts on either. |
| TxtEdMacs Dec 29, 2008 6:47 PM EDT |
[serious] At first, your first link just looked a bit odd. Going to the full page it took me time to recognize that I could create nearly the exact image by over compressing the width of the screen. I have Ff 3.0.5 that exhibits LXer quite nicely on larger browser frame. Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.0.5) Gecko/2008121621 Ubuntu/8.04 (hardy) Firefox/3.0.5 |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 29, 2008 7:14 PM EDT |
Quoting:I could create nearly the exact image by over compressing the width of the screen. By over compressing, you mean simply reducing the width of the browser window? If so, it sounds clearly like a gecko bug. Report it at Mozilla. |
| TxtEdMacs Dec 29, 2008 7:54 PM EDT |
Sander, I am not too sure this is rendering bug. Compared to some failures I have seen on my pages, I consider the change almost elegant. One has to look at the css file to see if the minimums set cause the change that is akin to word wrapping text on a size limited width of a page. To my eyes I do not find the compressed rendering as offensive, however, I must admit (using p.c. phrasing**) that I am among the artistically challenged. Perhaps that is a significant factor. ** political correct [unfortunately again serious] |
| herzeleid Dec 29, 2008 8:25 PM EDT |
@dino - > Ubuntu is at best OK, and far from my first choice as a general use OS. ubuntu is, at best, fantastic. I guess we have different definitions of what is meant by the phrase "at best". |
| montezuma Dec 29, 2008 9:00 PM EDT |
@tracyanne
Looks like Oz doesn't love Ubuntu. Try this instead: http://www.google.com/search?q=uvcvideo&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq... |
| dinotrac Dec 29, 2008 9:04 PM EDT |
herzeleid -- I should make clear that it's a personal opinion. I have not doubt that Ubuntu can be fantastic for the easily pleased or those whose hardware never gives them grief. |
| jdixon Dec 29, 2008 9:14 PM EDT |
> ubuntu is, at best, fantastic. At best, almost any Linux distribution is fantastic. It's the normal condition which matters. As a non-Ubuntu user who has looked at and installed the distribution for others, I'd say it's roughly on par with about half a dozen other distributions. Hardware and software specific issues will determine which of those distributions work best for any individual user. What I do appreciate is Ubuntu's newbie friendly forum policy, |
| tuxchick Dec 29, 2008 9:38 PM EDT |
Quoting: At first, your first link just looked a bit odd. Going to the full page it took me time to recognize that I could create nearly the exact image by over compressing the width of the screen. I have Ff 3.0.5 that exhibits LXer quite nicely on larger browser frame. Then I hope you're buying me a 60" plasma screen, because I have a 22" 1680x1050 screen, and those weird little artifacts on the LXer page still show up with the browser window fully maximized, and so does the text scramble on the other page. |
| TxtEdMacs Dec 29, 2008 10:00 PM EDT |
TC! Wow, I can now cut out the serious crap ... sorry I only have a 20" 1600 x 1200 and I hardly ever run a browser full screen width (actually I have dual screens with a little itty-bitty 17 incher next door to look at the code for my screwed up web pages). But in any case, I am not greedy. It will be perfectly acceptable if you just send me one of those cheap 42" LCD flat screen models so that I can watch DVD's in comfort. I will always be highly appreciative, so much I will allow you to apply a pet name to my new found gift. [send private email for my shipping address.] Thank you, thank you THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your buddy Txt. (don't be jealous deano dino, OK?) |
| tracyanne Dec 29, 2008 11:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:I could create nearly the exact image by over compressing the width of the screen. I Nope, I don't get any artefacts, no matter how small I make the width of the FF window. EDIT: Not on Linux or Windows |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 30, 2008 12:22 AM EDT |
Just when I thought my kid's Ubuntu 8.04 install was going so well, I need to add the Childsplay Plugins package (I hope that's what I need, because otherwise there's going to be big trouble in River City) ... and the Ubuntu TuxPaint isn't as good as the Debian version (or the OpenBSD version ...). Guess I'll be doing some compiling soon ... (or just rolling the Debian Lenny package into the Ubuntu install). |
| herzeleid Dec 30, 2008 12:52 AM EDT |
@dino - > I have not doubt that Ubuntu can be fantastic for the easily pleased or those whose hardware never gives them grief. I am not easily pleased, nor is my hardware perfect. But I do like ubuntu. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 30, 2008 3:34 AM EDT |
Quoting:One has to look at the css file to see if the minimums set cause the change that is akin to word wrapping text on a size limited width of a page. I inspected the page using Firebug (best FF plugin ever. Get it). The CSS is dead simple. Sarah Vessels did a good job designing the current LXer layout. Also, looking at the screenshot that Carla posted it's quite clear that it is not word wrap or anything like that. All the words are there, and the artifacts are the same in all boxes (they don't change with the text). |
| dinotrac Dec 30, 2008 8:44 AM EDT |
> But I do like ubuntu. Nothing wrong with that. I like liver and onions -- my kids make faces when I eat it. |
| krisum Dec 30, 2008 9:34 AM EDT |
I suspect it may have something to do with the theme (I think it uses gtk-qt theme engine) -- try disabling use of KDE styles in GTK apps in the KDE control center. |
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