What is all the hubub about?
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| theboomboomcars Nov 14, 2008 3:34 PM EDT |
From what I understand Novel is offering a program to help customers that want to switch to Suse support in that migration. They are offing this program because their customers asked for it. So in the Linux ecosystem it is bad to offer services that your customers ask for? Seems if that is the case then there wont be a commercial Linux ecosystem. It seems that Linux vendors should offer the support for transition for all of their customers and not just the ones coming from Windows and other Commercial OSes. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 14, 2008 4:38 PM EDT |
Agreed. I still don't trust Novell, but that's hardly a issue here. |
| dinotrac Nov 14, 2008 5:00 PM EDT |
I found the description of Novell as "struggling" kind of cute. Hmmm. Let's see -- sales are down -----gee, brutal economy, everybody's battered, ...yeah, down sales are tragic... but...profits exceed the street's projections. Hmmmm. The world is crashing and you still make money. Nice way to struggle. |
| schestowitz Nov 14, 2008 5:18 PM EDT |
Novell closed offices in Europe a week or so ago. The English-speaking press said nothing about it. And those who believe that Novell does well financially are easily fooled by PR. Let's not be gullible, shall we? |
| vainrveenr Nov 14, 2008 6:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:And those who believe that Novell does well financially are easily fooled by PR. Let's not be gullible, shall we?On the one hand, Schroder might agree with this assessment of Novell going downhill, as revealed in her Linux Today blog 'Chickens Pecking Red Hat', http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/112067 OTOH, the recent revelation that once high-and-mighty MS-competitor Sun Microsystems may not survive the current downsizing becomes yet another stark reality-check into how severe this brutal economy really is. See the news of this at 'Sun to cut up to 6,000 workers, 18 pct of staff', http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/112125 This news of Novell and the bigger news about Sun Microsystems certainly stirs up much conjecture about upcoming M&A deals possibly involving Fujitsu Ltd., Hewlett-Packard Co., IBM Corp., Dell Inc., or other big-industry players .......including (of course) Microsoft Inc. |
| schestowitz Nov 14, 2008 7:14 PM EDT |
Microsoft won't scoop up Novell -- for now. Novell is more useful for them when people think it's a 'Linux company' (even if 80%+ of NOVL's business is proprietary software). Prepare for big news and controversy pretty soon (maybe next week). |
| herzeleid Nov 14, 2008 7:22 PM EDT |
> Prepare for big news and controversy pretty soon (maybe next week). hmm... now you've got me curious.... |
| rdtennent Nov 14, 2008 7:38 PM EDT |
"They are offing this program because their customers asked for it." And you probably believe in the tooth fairy. They are offering this program in order to poach Red Hat's customers. If they can offer better support than Red Hat, they'll get them. But this is obviously a Microsoft-sponsored bribe, essentially an anti-competitive action. Microsoft always claim that their customers are asking for whatever it is Microsoft want to do even if there's no evidence whatsoever for it except the usual Microsoft-sponsored astroturfing. |
| schestowitz Nov 14, 2008 9:03 PM EDT |
@rdtennent: yes, it's sold as Microsoft 'Linux coupons'. |
| azerthoth Nov 14, 2008 9:30 PM EDT |
So whats it called when Ubuntu goes after RH installs, or Oracle's Unbreakable? Oh it's fine for other 'approved' open source providers to try and gain traction, just not the tainted Novell. Take off the tinfoil already you hypocrites. |
| rdtennent Nov 14, 2008 10:56 PM EDT |
"whats it called when Ubuntu goes after RH installs, or Oracle's Unbreakable?" It's called competition. Does Microsoft money prop up Ubuntu or Oracle? |
| tracyanne Nov 15, 2008 1:35 AM EDT |
@herzeleid, I stopped being curious about anything Roy has to say when I discovered I had to wear a tin foil hat to actually make sense of the nonesense he writes. |
| schestowitz Nov 15, 2008 6:11 AM EDT |
Just saying the word tinfoil doesn't paint me black. Wake up. |
| tracyanne Nov 15, 2008 7:14 AM EDT |
Quoting:Just saying the word tinfoil doesn't paint me black. No Roy it doesn't paint you black. That would be a horse of an entirely different colour. I think the terms obsessive, compulsive and disorder, while not necessarily in that order, do come into it. Mostly wrong like the Astrologers and Clairvoyants, occasionally right, like the fore mentioned, mainly due to, like the afore mentioned, the shear number of statements, but when right, only by accident. In the mean time, due to the fact that you've cried wolf way too frequently, most people have lost interest. |
| schestowitz Nov 15, 2008 8:55 AM EDT |
> In the mean time, due to the fact that you've cried wolf way too frequently, most people have lost interest. On what? On Mono? It's still getting deeper and deeper into your desktop. Heard of Moonlight? |
| tracyanne Nov 15, 2008 9:16 AM EDT |
Quoting:Heard of Moonlight? Yes, I'm still waiting for it to work. |
| tracyanne Nov 15, 2008 9:18 AM EDT |
Mono is Free Open Source Software, published under the GPL. |
| r_a_trip Nov 15, 2008 11:44 AM EDT |
Mono is Free Open Source Software, published under the GPL. Which becomes undistributable if MS does have a valid patent somewhere and decides to press charges. The irony here is the fact that the FSF put that kill-switch in themselves. MS would "wet their pants" in laughter if that license stipulation helped them getting largely rid of us. Why take the risk of helping MS to create a Silverlighted web and in the end being shut out of it? Novell may have good intentions, but MS has left way too many carcasses in its wake to be trusted. |
| azerthoth Nov 15, 2008 2:10 PM EDT |
actually roy, you need no one to paint you black, you do a fine job of that for yourself. I was not referencing your still mythical proof on mono or moonlight (yes it's mythical because to date you have provided nothing but paranoia). Rather the fact that you continue to this day to refuse that Novell has spent tons of money in defense of Linux and GPL'd software. Even your torn logic must admit that had Novell not taken SCO to task that the Linux landscape would be a much different place at the moment. You want to make some hay, Redhat has developed for and given to Linux, had some luck in the courtroom on behalf of and for Linux. Novell has gone to court for us and literally drove the opposition into bankruptcy, yet I dont hear you thanking them for that work. Roy, you and those like you who see evil before good, denigrate and blast active productive members of the community because they dont happen to agree with your stallmanite extremism view of freedom are an example of the worst of the community. Your zealotous cannibalism of part of the community who has put everything on the line and handed us a clear win despite detractors such as yourself shows that anyone with half a brain and able to add two plus two can see you need no help in 'painting yourself black'. |
| tuxchick Nov 15, 2008 2:34 PM EDT |
Novell went to court because SCO sued Novell. Nothing to do with the FOSS community at all, but protecting their own interests. Let's not fall into undeserved hero worship. Though it is true Novell contributes a lot of code, and supports openSUSE. But then the openSUSE community contributes plenty right back at 'em. Anyway Novell is twice the size of Red Hat, and while Red Hat is the largest Linux vendor, they're tiny by comparison to Novell and MS. Let's see some headlines where Novell attacks a many times more significant market with much more potential for growth-- Windows. |
| TxtEdMacs Nov 15, 2008 3:41 PM EDT |
az, On this issue, I am ride pooling with r_a_ and tc [seriously]. Your take is too reactive in the extreme*, past behaviour can have some value in prediction of future actions. Moreover, mono and moonlight [or beams] are more aligned to fundamental MS interests than with Free software options. dot Net is not free. * If the result comes near to the fears, by the time you are cognizant of that fact, it will be too late. |
| azerthoth Nov 15, 2008 4:17 PM EDT |
TxtEdMacs, your free to side with who you want. On one side you have FUD, baseless factless allegations and a willingness to sow dissension on the other side you have ... OMG, the same thing. regardless of the flavor, I refuse the cool aid. |
| tracyanne Nov 15, 2008 5:47 PM EDT |
Quoting:Which becomes undistributable if MS does have a valid patent somewhere and decides to press charges. Time is rapidly running out for them, and given the posturing, it's highly unlikely that they do have anything of substance. The biggest thing Microsoft have going for them is the people like Roy. |
| schestowitz Nov 15, 2008 7:58 PM EDT |
Yes, of course. BN is a shrine to Microsoft. Come and visit sometime. Have a taste for how much I 'help' Microsoft. |
| jdixon Nov 15, 2008 8:16 PM EDT |
> Which becomes undistributable if MS does have a valid patent somewhere and decides to press charges. Sigh. Then don't use it. People, mono may be the greatest thing since sliced bread (though I've seen no evidence of that), but it you have concerns about it, then there are alternatives available. Just don't use mono or any software which depends on it. That's pretty much always been my position. Given the pre-existing alternatives, Miguel and company need to give me a reason to use Mono, and so far they've failed miserably. |
| schestowitz Nov 15, 2008 8:51 PM EDT |
What about distributors that prebundle mono and feed it to people who don't understand it and get 'addicted'/locked in to mono apps. Ubuntu is a good example. |
| herzeleid Nov 15, 2008 9:06 PM EDT |
> What about distributors that prebundle mono and feed it to people who don't understand it and get 'addicted'/locked in to mono apps. Ubuntu is a good example. I don't think ubuntu is unique in this regard - novell/suse are the worst offenders I've seen, installing mono apps by default, including that awful beagle CPU thrasher. The one good thing about mono is that I was able to do my C# and asp programming assignments without ever using a windoze peecee, keeping my microsoft-free comp sci degree intact. |
| tracyanne Nov 15, 2008 9:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:Yes, of course. BN is a shrine to Microsoft. Come and visit sometime. Have a taste for how much I 'help' Microsoft. Of course it's not a shrine to Microsoft, it's anything but. It still helps Microsoft's agenda though. It helps microsoft's agenda by spreading FUD. All Microsoft have to do is twitch, and you jump. All Microsoft has to do is repeat the P word and you are off running, doing their job for them. |
| schestowitz Nov 15, 2008 9:48 PM EDT |
tracyanne, Not true. I wrote about 300 posts protesting against patents (I just didn't propose them to LXer). Read the site and maybe your opinion will change. There's a wide variety of topics. |
| jdixon Nov 15, 2008 10:00 PM EDT |
> What about distributors that prebundle mono and feed it to people who don't understand it and get 'addicted'/locked in to mono apps. Name one mono app that's irreplaceable. I haven't even seen one yet worth having, much less being irreplaceable (of course, Slackware doesn't include mono yet, and given Miguel's Gnome orientation, it probably never will). Yes, some distro's bundle mono and mono apps by default. How about a set of automated tools to help users of those distro's remove said apps without breaking things. How about a list of mono based apps and recommended replacements? Either of those would be of more use than another article making the same points. |
| tracyanne Nov 16, 2008 5:13 AM EDT |
Quoting:Name one mono app that's irreplaceable. I haven't even seen one yet worth having, much less being irreplaceable Exactly. I haven't yet com across a single Mono application that is irreplacable, and Mandriva does bundle Mono. The first thing to go is beagle, it's terrible resource hog. But I don't not use mono applications because of some vague threats leveled by Microsoft, or indeed the additional FUD spread by Roy and the gang, I don't use mono applications because I have no need for them, or as is the case with Moonlight, they don't work. |
| schestowitz Nov 16, 2008 5:38 AM EDT |
Moonlight requires Mono. What can that be replaced with? |
| tracyanne Nov 16, 2008 6:14 AM EDT |
What can Adobe Flashplayer be replaced with. Who cares, If you want to view Flash videos you use Abobe flashplayer, if you want to view Silverlight videos, you use Moonlight, should they ever get it working. And Mono is still Free Open Source Software, which makes Moonlight Free open source software - because it's developed in C# Mono, and because it's licensed under the GPL - while Adobe Flashplayer is pure proprietary. |
| schestowitz Nov 16, 2008 8:39 AM EDT |
/s/Free Open Source Software/Free-yet-microsoft-swpatents-encumbered/ |
| tracyanne Nov 16, 2008 9:01 AM EDT |
Quoting:/s/Free Open Source Software/Free-yet-microsoft-swpatents-encumbered/ As I said FUD. You have the patent numbers I assume. |
| jdixon Nov 16, 2008 9:59 AM EDT |
> Moonlight requires Mono. What can that be replaced with? OK. A reimplementation of a Microsoft specific protocol, developed using Microsoft specific languages and environments, doesn't have an alternative. That still doesn't make it irreplaceable, since I (at least) have absolutely no use for it to start with. However, given the complete source code, it could be ported to another language/environment (though I don't think anyone will bother, as it's not worth the effort). |
| schestowitz Nov 16, 2008 1:02 PM EDT |
tracyanne, there's winform stuff we found. |
| schestowitz Nov 16, 2008 1:03 PM EDT |
jdixon, if it were not for Novell, /MICROSOFT/ would port to GNU/Linux (that's how Microsoft explained it). It lets others do the 'copying'. |
| tracyanne Nov 16, 2008 4:06 PM EDT |
Quoting:tracyanne, there's winform stuff we found. So what. You haven't answered my previous question. All you've done is add more FUD. |
| azerthoth Nov 16, 2008 6:01 PM EDT |
Actually non-sequitor was what I was thinking TA. Bouncing from one to the next so as not to get pinned down on any. |
| theboomboomcars Nov 16, 2008 7:32 PM EDT |
Ahh, so the hubub is about nothing. Thanks |
| tracyanne Nov 16, 2008 8:32 PM EDT |
@az, yes it is actually. |
| tracyanne Nov 16, 2008 8:37 PM EDT |
@jd Quoting:though I don't think anyone will bother, as it's not worth the effort As far as I'm concerned, it's either C# Mono Moolight, or some other language "Moonlight", I can't tell the people to whom I want to sell Linux equiped computers "sorry you can't access your fitness education/[fill in the type here] website as Linux doesn't do Silverlight, so all those education programs you paid for will now be inaccessible, but buy my Linux computers anyway. |
| schestowitz Nov 16, 2008 9:32 PM EDT |
Do you not accept that Microsoft must support GNU/Linux... would be forced to by regulators had Novell not decided to create a second-class citizen that steps on Microsoft 'IP' toes? |
| jdixon Nov 16, 2008 10:07 PM EDT |
> I can't tell the people to whom I want to sell Linux equiped computers "sorry you can't access your fitness education/[fill in the type here] website as Linux doesn't do Silverlight. Linux can't do everything. Barring a major change in management direction, Microsoft will never support Linux, so Microsoft based technologies will always be a hit or miss proposition. If people choose to tie themselves to Microsoft based technologies, then they're willing choosing a monopoly provider, and deserve the consequences. Yes, that means you may not be able to sell Linux machines to them. But some headaches aren't worth it. > Do you not accept that Microsoft must support GNU/Linux... would be forced to by regulators... Did you watch the same trial and aftermath I did? Microsoft was convicted... and got their wrist slapped. No, I don't think for a second that US regulators would require Microsoft to support Linux. The EU is another matter, but even they can't be counted on to do anything, and if they did it would probably take 5 years or more. |
| tracyanne Nov 16, 2008 11:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:Do you not accept that Microsoft must support GNU/Linux... would be forced to by regulators had Novell not decided to create a second-class citizen that steps on Microsoft 'IP' toes? That still doesn't answer my question Roy. Why are you evading the real issue? |
| schestowitz Nov 17, 2008 2:00 PM EDT |
Novell should join the rest and complain about the attack on the standards-based Web, as opposed to supporting this attack. |
| dinotrac Nov 17, 2008 2:08 PM EDT |
tracyanne - Stop this foolishness now. You cannot engage in rational discourse with an irrational being. It's like talking to my dog. He listens, appears to care about what I say, but outside of a distinctly limited vocabulary, it's in one ear and out the other, with maybe a tail wag in-between. |
| herzeleid Nov 17, 2008 2:41 PM EDT |
I think Roy raises some valid points. Perhaps some refinement is needed, but IMHO there is something in what he's saying. |
| dinotrac Nov 17, 2008 4:21 PM EDT |
>there is something in what he's saying. Yes there is. There's something in my toilet, too. |
| tracyanne Nov 17, 2008 4:31 PM EDT |
Quoting:Novell should join the rest and complain about the attack on the standards-based Web, as opposed to supporting this attack. As futile as I know this is. @Roy you are still avoiding my question, please answer it. Stop trying to change the subject. |
| jdixon Nov 17, 2008 5:16 PM EDT |
> I think Roy raises some valid points. Roy has several valid points and some which, while they may not be valid, deserve consideration. 1) Microsoft is an evil corporation. I think this is demonstrated by historical evidence well enough that it can be accepted as a given. 2) Novell has made a deal with Microsoft which was (take your pick) incompetent/unwise/evil. Again, while your choice of modifier may vary, we can agree that Microsoft will try to use the deal to hurt FOSS in general and Linux in particular. 3) Because of this deal, Novell cannot be trusted to have the best interests of FOSS at heart. Well, since no corporation can, this is somewhat of a given, but I agree that at the very least it makes Novell's judgment in FOSS matters suspect. 4) Mono, being derived from Microsoft products via Novell, cannot be trusted and should not be used. The added corollary is that Microsoft will use it to attack FOSS/Linux in any way possible. This one is far more problematic, and Roy's arguments are unconvincing to many. I personally tend to agree, but that's simply because I don't trust Microsoft and prefer to avoid their technologies, not because I believe Mono is a legitimate attack vector. Feel free to add to the list, with appropriate commentary if desired. |
| tracyanne Nov 17, 2008 5:28 PM EDT |
Quoting:Mono, being derived from Microsoft products via Novell, cannot be trusted and should not be used. Correction. Mono was not a Novell product, it did not come out of the Novel Microsoft deal. Mono is not derived from a Microsoft product anymore than SaMBa is derived from a Microsoft product. Mono, like SaMBa was developed from publically available specifications. In the case of Mono from the ECMA published open specification for C# and the .NET Framework. Mono was originally developed by Miguel de Icaza's company Ximian, which he founded with Nat Friedman. Ximian were also responsible for Evolution and other GNOME software. They were eventually purchased by Novell prior to the Microsoft deal. |
| jdixon Nov 17, 2008 5:39 PM EDT |
> Mono was not a Novell product, I understand the details aren't correct, TA, but I was trying to summarize the gist of Roy's points, not making my own. I think what I said is an accurate summarization of his position. |
| tracyanne Nov 17, 2008 6:05 PM EDT |
@jd, sorry, I miss read you. |
| jdixon Nov 17, 2008 9:01 PM EDT |
> ...sorry, I miss read you. If it was that easy to misread my comments, the fault was mine, not yours. Roy is, of course, free to correct my points as he sees fit. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!