Don't fear outsourcing if you're in US
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| hkwint Sep 18, 2008 2:47 PM EDT |
Of course those jobs will be outsourced in the next two decades. Chinese labour is too expensive as their standards become higher and the Renminbi rises. So logically executives will search to outsource their labour to a cheaper country. And where are the currency cheap; and where can't the employees complain because their fellow country citizens don't own their own business in their country (because the Saudi's, Russians and Chinese themselves bought it)? Right, in the US. As of today this scenario may sound ridiculous but I won't be surprised if I see that day; and I predict I will. Hint: The biggest shareholder of Citibank is a Saudi (otherwise Citi would be bankrupt as of today); and the biggest shareholder of AIG is a company called 'US Government' whose shareholders / investors are from China and Russia. BTW: This is all a very smart conspiracy of Microsoft to make those cheap Chinese Windows licenses more worth in $, in case you haven't found out yet. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 19, 2008 9:19 AM EDT |
HK, I couldn't agree more. The destruction of the dollar is going apace, they're printing them as fast as they can and not get lynched. Very few people are talking about the "value of the dollar", and all of them are very pessimistic. A quick YouTube search for "Jim Rogers" will cure anyone who thinks that the US economy can recover under the current dollar-dumping policies. |
| tracyanne Sep 19, 2008 6:03 PM EDT |
While I'm making no predictions here, It's an historical fact that all empires crumble, only to be replaced by another. |
| rijelkentaurus Sep 20, 2008 7:56 AM EDT |
Quoting: While I'm making no predictions here, It's an historical fact that all empires crumble, only to be replaced by another. True. Unfortunately, the "toys" this empire has to play with can destroy the entire world a million times over, whether used by us or by the next. Best to hope that someone in Washington extracts their head from their anus, although I have little faith in that happening. The way the government is bailing out the financial sector is one of the things Ron Paul talked about...print more and more money, etc. Too much of that and my Monopoly money really will be worth more than the dollar. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 20, 2008 9:54 AM EDT |
Yes, R.P. has been telling anyone who would listen that the financial empire was built on sand, as he says, "I've been giving the same speech for 20 years." Rather than argue minutia, address the source http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/understanding-the-crisis... Liberation by Internet http://mises.org/story/3060 LewRockwell.com and Mises.org are on my every-morning reading list, along with Dilbert and Sinfest. On the subject of outsourcing, it works just as well in-country as out. "Outsourcing" may very well be how the promise of telecommuting is finally realized. Why pay a programmer the cost of living in San Jose, California, when you can pay them the cost of living for BrokenRearSight, Wyoming? Or MudFlatBay, Maine? Or how about those snowed-in neighbors to the north? At least the people who call your technical support hotline will get someone who can understand more English than what is on the pre-printed checklist/menu/decision-tree. |
| hkwint Sep 21, 2008 8:07 AM EDT |
Well, what I heard a while ago (two years or so) was that some company now outsourced to Argentina because China became to expensive. The company where I work (non-IT; 'physical' hardware) is also outsourcing to China, but I wonder if it's cheaper at all than keeping it somewhere over here in Europe. And actually, a cheaper dollar is just what the US needs; because then it will become cheaper for people such as myself to buy stuff from the US which means an end to the economical crisis. However, in my opinion the problem is that this solution is blocked because other countries own too many dollars (banks around the world just bought $180billion last week), and therefore they don't like to see it drop. For example, my old age pension already totaling €50 (Wow!) as I speak is 'in dollars' (and a bit of it in Lehman/Citi/Morgan et all too probably). That means 'the free market' and the US would benefit from a drop of the US dollar, but people everywhere in the world will suffer from it, just because the ones looking after their money were so bright to invest everything in the US (Especially Dutch pension funds are good at it). But anyway, a cheaper dollar will benefit those working in the US as their labour thus their products become cheaper. Therefore what I was wondering is if this will slow down outsourcing from the US to especially Asian countries. As long as the Chinese currency is pegged to the US dollar this will probably mean, as far as I understand, that Chinese labour doesn't become more expensive in US dollars. That's apart from a fixed percentage per year I heard. However, if the Chinese would release their currency it may become more expensive and this might save a lot of jobs in the US. That is if I understand it all correctly (probably only the biggest part), because as a former physics-student it's really hard trying to understand a system without an 'inertial frame of reference' and without well defined system of units. Physics say mass/energy cannot be created out of nothing and cannot disappear into nothing, but money is a whole different beast. Still, looking at the inventions and new science discoveries coming out of the US I see hope; at this moment it's still unsurpassed in the rest of the world and that will probably stay for a while. Which means I don't have to worry about my pension. BTW Why should I, being only 24... The only thing which worries me is that the dollar or gasoline may become more expensive when I'll be on holiday in the US in January. On the long term I still keep thinking about investing in some beach in Dubai and Abu-Dabi (made by some fellow Dutch) or Foxconn or Quanta, making most of our computers and iPhones. And can't some sheik please just buy Microsoft and open source all it's products? The latter is just a stupid question, why buy an uninteresting company like Microsoft if you can buy such an interesting toy as Manchester City? |
| TxtEdMacs Sep 21, 2008 8:41 AM EDT |
Serious note (I know it's out of character, but the day is young): currency relative values are just a fraction of the determinants of economic status. Take manufacturing, if the skills are lost no matter how cheap your labor component of currency value, new packaged junk is not that desirable. The U.S. though once was the source of new technology has had its inventions sold off and now badly trails many others where it was once in the lead. I see no desire to invest in science by either the political elite nor the corporate giants (it's cheaper to pursue that track in India or even China). Badly trained bodies are no substitute for honed talent. We have entered another era of Socialism for the rich and raw capitalism for the masses. Right now, I do not see it getting better here any time soon no matter what the currency exchange values might be. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 21, 2008 2:16 PM EDT |
"We have entered another era of Socialism for the rich and raw capitalism for the masses." Sadly, that is not true. Socialism always benefits a small group at the expense of the masses. It is "raw capitalism" that created a middle class and increasing standards of living. What you're seeing is the US implementing Fascism. Ask an Italian what that means. |
| jezuch Sep 21, 2008 4:31 PM EDT |
Quoting:Socialism always benefits a small group at the expense of the masses. I guess TxtEdMacs meant Socialism as in free education, free healthcare etc. If you're rich enough, you can afford free healthcare, you know ;) And you probably meant Communism. Just curious: have you per chance been to a post-communist country and talked to people about their experiences? [Seriously, just curious...] |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 21, 2008 4:39 PM EDT |
"as in free education, free healthcare etc." So long as you believe they're "free", nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. Nothing is "free", because everything has a cost. That cost must be paid by someone, somewhere, being productive. If the person receiving the service was not productive, and thus could not otherwise have afforded the service, then someone else is paying the cost. If that paying is voluntary, I'm all for it. However, what I see is tax collectors, guns and prisons. Any system that depends upon coercion to exist is, by definition, evil. |
| gus3 Sep 21, 2008 9:38 PM EDT |
TOS, guys. |
| jdixon Sep 22, 2008 12:15 AM EDT |
> Physics say mass/energy cannot be created out of nothing and cannot disappear into nothing, but money is a whole different beast. No, it isn't. The laws governing the money supply are just as inflexible as those of physics. The fact that politicians and policy planners think they can ignore them doesn't change that. > What you're seeing is the US implementing Fascism. Agreed. They're not calling it that, but that's what it is. |
| jezuch Sep 22, 2008 2:03 AM EDT |
Quoting:So long as you believe they're "free", nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. If you read between the lines of "If you're rich enough, you can afford free healthcare, you know ;)" you can see that I don't believe that. But, TOS :) |
| TxtEdMacs Sep 22, 2008 6:57 AM EDT |
Kind of busy people, but: Quoting:> What you're seeing is the US implementing Fascism. Glad you finally noticed. Voting here is an exercise to keep the unwashed in place. However, unlike other dictatorships you need only to keep the results close so the comfortable journalist class does not have to pay attention or feel guilty for not doing the job that should be expected of them. Fix just some machines and the results seem real. I cringe when the jerks in the executive criticize other countries for doing exactly what is happening here, well almost. In Russia those being murdered are trying to play the role of a real free press, not a mouth piece for the State. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 22, 2008 7:59 AM EDT |
Jezuch, yes, it clicked after I'd already replied. Sorry about that. About 1993, while I was working at NASA (before my evolution to complete distaine for the state), we were deploying network equipment and doing monitoring for the Russian space agency in Moscow. Several of the high-level engineers came over to see and learn what we were doing and how. We got to talking, as engineers will, and let's just say that their reactions to middle-class California were both consistant and frightening. These weren't peasants, these were the elite of Soviet engineering. There. That's almost computer related... |
| gus3 Sep 22, 2008 12:12 PM EDT |
Oh, so as opposed to Russia, the murdered people in the USA were just mouthpieces for the State? In case you hadn't noticed, the popular press in the USA are no longer mouthpieces for anything but the Democratic Party. Donation rolls and surveys of published reports confirm this time after time. They'll investigate Republicans until the cows come home, but their own people get a free pass... until they get caught with their hands in the cookie jar, at which point the pre-fabbed editorials (some masquerading as "news") get trotted out to shore up public opinion once more. http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/194057.php It's going to happen again shortly. |
| jdixon Sep 22, 2008 12:48 PM EDT |
> Glad you finally noticed. Txt, I think you have me confused with someone else. I've been noticing for over 30 years now. :( But, as I've noted elsewhere, this is a battle that was lost a long time ago. |
| jdixon Sep 22, 2008 12:58 PM EDT |
> ...the popular press in the USA are no longer mouthpieces for anything but the Democratic Party. Well, yeah. But if you haven't noticed, the most recent steps towards fascism have been taking place under a Republican Party administration. So the Democrats want socialism, while the Republicans are trying for fascism. Neither party has any use for a limited government with strictly defined powers anymore. The only option for those supporting the ideals the US was founded on are third party candidates, many of whom can't even get on the ballot in most states. I agree with TxtEdMacs that voting is a waste of time, but unfortunately I also feel it's an obligation. So I waste my time on occasion. As noted in other recent articles, it's especially a waste of time with most electronic voting machines, as their tallies can be trusted less than the distance you can throw one. Nothing that couldn't be solved with open hardware, open software, and a documented paper trail, but do you see anyone in power even suggesting such? There, now it's computer/FOSS related. :) |
| Scott_Ruecker Sep 22, 2008 1:08 PM EDT |
ok, so has this thread gotten totally off track or what? ;-) Gotta stick to FOSS people... |
| tuxchick Sep 22, 2008 1:10 PM EDT |
Party pooper. ;) |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 22, 2008 3:13 PM EDT |
I like how gus3 came in all "TOS" and everything, and then got corrupted into participating. :^) |
| theboomboomcars Sep 22, 2008 3:18 PM EDT |
Don't worry Scott this isn't a political discussion. When the republicans are mentioned it is just a figurative way to Mention MS, the democrats represent apple, while the 3rd parties are FOSS. See nothing to worry about. :) |
| azerthoth Sep 22, 2008 3:21 PM EDT |
That proves it to me, Bob is like rust. It may take a bit to get started but once it does it slowly takes over. This can be taken good or bad as your viewpoints merit. Personally I think a little more of Bob's and JD'd common sense would go a long way in curing a lot of societal (and FOSS) ill's. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 22, 2008 3:25 PM EDT |
"a little more of Bob's and JD'd common sense would go a long way in curing a lot of societal (and FOSS) ill's." But that would be ... ANARCHY! Mmmmm... Be Excellent To Each Other. Party on, dude. |
| tuxchick Sep 22, 2008 3:46 PM EDT |
Is it still anarchy when everyone agrees? |
| rijelkentaurus Sep 22, 2008 4:38 PM EDT |
That's archy. |
| azerthoth Sep 22, 2008 4:49 PM EDT |
A thought, why is it called "Common Sense" when it doesn't seem that it's all that common at all? |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 22, 2008 5:31 PM EDT |
an-archy: rules without rulers. Consensual relationships, voluntary interaction. This is very much the way F/OSS is organized. Each project has its own internal rules, and if you don't like those rules you don't participate in that project. Neither can anyone force anyone else to participate, donate, contribute or use anything. Rules have evolved based upon mutual agreement, tradition, and common sense. Each contributor owns what they contribute, while recognizing that the complete systems are the property of those who install and use them. Private property, the basis of capitalism. F/OSS is, in its functioning, a perfect example of anarcho-capitalism in reality not just theory. |
| hkwint Sep 22, 2008 5:43 PM EDT |
Yeah, all my fault Scott. Starting to talk about IT-jobs in the US and how they might stay in the US was not a smart thing to do; it's almost a flamebait. But it keeps our fellow LXer'ers happy it seems; and I'm just starting to begin to comprehend a little bit of all this money-talk. And after all, money and economy are related to FOSS. How it got out of hand and the topic changed to Socialism and Fascism and which US party is brought most friendly on TV (could have guessed that. Indeed; thinking in only two countries: US and THEM)-- I still don't know. So, here's my advice: To all ya workin' in the US, you better start caring about something else than who's the most on TV, because your next boss will be Chinese, Russian or Saudi (or that may already be the case, if you don't work for some defense industry or Microsoft). In fact, that's a _good_ thing, because all bosses coming from the US screwed up. It happened the same to Dutch DAF (lorry company): The Dutch wouldn't sell it to foreigners, the Dutch government invested millions but it didn't work, and after some foreigners bought it and became new bosses everything went right again (actually, a company from the US bought it). Same for ABN-AMRO: It isn't Dutch anymore, but that's only good since the Dutch boss(es) screwed up (really big BTW). Bad thing is the new Belgian bosses screwed up also, so it's time for a new foreign boss from another country to clear up the mess. If you want to have bosses from your own country, look at Alitalia and see what happens. You shouldn't care about who wins elections; there are only two candidates which both have a nose and two ears, and probably two feet too, and both make promises they can't live up to and they both have to work with the same mess their predecessor left to them. All that is just a circus, meaning not important and a waste of time and forum space. Remember, that was just my advise. My conclusion is still I think outsourcing of IT jobs from the US to Asian countries will slow down because all of this. That should be good news for a lot of my fellow LXer readers, provided I'm right. |
| jdixon Sep 22, 2008 8:45 PM EDT |
> My conclusion is still I think outsourcing of IT jobs from the US to Asian countries will slow down because all of this. I'd say you're correct in the long term, but probably not in the short term. There's too much inertia in the "outsourcing trend" for it to be reversed overnight. It will take a couple of spectacular failures for that to happen. Fortunately, those have been in the works for a while now. |
| Scott_Ruecker Sep 22, 2008 10:05 PM EDT |
You are all fine, I was heading it off at the pass, and I think it worked too. |
| gus3 Sep 23, 2008 12:22 AM EDT |
Quoting:I like how gus3 came in all "TOS" and everything, and then got corrupted into participating. :^)I warned about "TOS" (and I wasn't the only one) because I could see it going where the eds might delete. When they didn't, I figured they didn't care (yet). @hkwint: It may be a messed-up circus, but by $DEITY, it's our messed-up circus. ;-) |
| hkwint Sep 23, 2008 12:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:it's our messed-up circus. ;-) Well, probably it's the most popular circus in the world, since it's on TV in almost any country! I like to watch also, as a way of entertainment. |
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