"Retooling" doesn't work
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| phsolide Aug 24, 2008 10:17 AM EDT |
I have some co-workers that were "re-tools" into Java/J2EE when that was the popular thing to do with old cobol cretins. Doesn't work. All you get are incurious weenies who can talk a good game, but can't use anything other than arrays. If you "re-tool" Windows types into pretend linux types, all you're going to do is drag all the badness of windows into Linux. You know the old saying that "You can write Fortan in any programming language"? Well, I bet you'll just get all the cr@p of Windows into Linux if you let those unregenerate Windows fools do linux. |
| dinotrac Aug 24, 2008 11:41 AM EDT |
Speaking of tools -- Anybody who wants to learn new ways of doing things can. Anybody who doesn't, can't. Old or young, vastly experienced or not very experienced. Makes not difference. What is, however, hard is to get young folks to appreciate the experience of people who have seen things they haven't and understand things they don't. Nearly everything in IT has been done before in some way, shape, or form. We of the grizzled persuasion actually do bring some value to the table. And, I guarantee, anybody who has been in IT more than 5-10 years has been "re-tooled" to some degree or the other. |
| Scott_Ruecker Aug 24, 2008 12:09 PM EDT |
I agree with dino, In my experience age, sex and level of experience do not matter, the want to learn is either there, or it is not. I'll turn it on it's head, I have shown Linux to many many people and all the people who wanted to learn more about it shared the same characteristic, the 'want' to learn something new. Yeah, I like it said that way better.. sentences are cool.. ;-) |
| gus3 Aug 24, 2008 12:36 PM EDT |
Quoting:In my experience age, sex and level of experience do not matterSex doesn't matter? Spoken like a true geek.... /handing in my geek union card |
| hkwint Aug 24, 2008 12:48 PM EDT |
Agree to that Dino. If I as a hobbyist without IT-training and a 'WinXP only user' was able to learn OpenBSD and Gentoo - just because I wanted to, than why would those earning from it not be able to drop their habits? In WinXP, I always used 'MyComputer' or WinCommander (Now TotalCommander, shame on MS!) for file management. Now, I almost always use CLI. In OpenBSD I always used csh. Even in Linux, I insisted on using csh, just for the sake of using csh. Didn't want to 'learn' bash, just because 'for' statements were different. Now I'm really glad I use bash, because csh doesn't have (good) history. So yes, it is possible, if you want, to learn new habits. But it does need educating the ones being 're-tooled' as to why their old habits stink. The biggest endeavour is teaching those Windows users the difference between 'usability' and 'approachability'. |
| phsolide Aug 24, 2008 2:33 PM EDT |
You folks miss the point. "Retooling" has a very specific corporate meaning. Re-tooling as all of you have spoken about it, exists, nay, mandates itself. I agree, as a OS-9 and then Unix hobbyist who talked his way into programming jobs in the early 90s, curiosity-fueled self education has a definite place. "Re-tooling" does NOT mean letting someone internally motivated learn a new system, or guiding someone who wants to learn. "Re-tooling" in the corporate sense means to take an arbitrary project or department-full of existing employees, run them through the cheapest possible "training", whether they like it or not, and then throw them in over their heads. Five years of Windows Studio programming in VB or ASP or C#, plus a 6-month Java training program, does not equal a linux programmer with 5.5 years of experience. The difference between corporate-style training, and education is greater in practice than it is in theory. Also, if you like good history mechanisms, you should investigate Zsh. Best interactive shell ever. |
| dinotrac Aug 24, 2008 3:03 PM EDT |
phsolide - I've seen re-tooling done well and done badly. Some corporations are smarter and better than others. Some are REALLY, REALLY bad, though, I have to admit. |
| hkwint Aug 24, 2008 3:59 PM EDT |
Quoting:"Re-tooling" does NOT mean letting someone internally motivated learn a new system, or guiding someone who wants to learn. OK, I missed that point. I assume forcing employees to do things against their likening never works? Quoting:The difference between corporate-style training, and education is greater in practice than it is in theory. I'm interested (even when being a hobbyist when it comes to IT). Could you elaborate on that a bit? (As a sidenote: I work in a business where - using the Free Dictionaries definition - retooling is what I indirectly deal with everyday, however the tools we work with are physical, and everybody is happy to work with new tools because that always means the old ones were not good enough) |
| tracyanne Aug 24, 2008 5:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:And, I guarantee, anybody who has been in IT more than 5-10 years has been "re-tooled" to some degree or the other. Indeed, I say that from 30 years experience in IT. |
| jdixon Aug 24, 2008 10:18 PM EDT |
> I assume forcing employees to do things against their likening never works? Seldom works. There are exceptions to every rule. In particular, income incentives can overcome a lot of resistance. Strange how that's so seldom used, isn't it? > And, I guarantee, anybody who has been in IT more than 5-10 years has been "re-tooled" to some degree or the other. I think I've lost count by now. |
| jacog Aug 25, 2008 12:38 AM EDT |
At my company, the IT division are already a bunch of tools. *goes to sit in the low-brow humour corner and trolls there* |
| NoDough Aug 25, 2008 9:01 AM EDT |
>> "There are exceptions to every rule." Including that one? |
| jdixon Aug 25, 2008 10:16 AM EDT |
> Including that one? Probably, yes. Some rules are written for specific situations which don't allow for exceptions (though ones could probably be devised if someone tried hard enough). Others are the results of natural laws which don't allow for exceptions. It very similar to the saying "Moderation in all things" which by definition includes moderation. |
| tuxchick Aug 25, 2008 10:29 AM EDT |
This has to be one of the more odd, entertaining threads I've seen recently...anyway, metoo to the "some folks want to learn, some should just be pods in the Matrix" sentiments. |
| herzeleid Aug 25, 2008 1:08 PM EDT |
> "some folks want to learn, some should just be pods in the Matrix" Heh, can I use that as a sig? Anyhoo, to continue with the matrix analogy, I took the red pill and worked hard to learn all about unix and linux in the early 90s, at a time when my job description had everything to do with electronics and nothing to do with unix. It opened a door for a career change, and allowed me to jump from a sinking ship and catch a wave that is still going strong. hmm, lotta metaphors there.... edit: fixed dumb grammatical error in 1st sentence of 2nd paragraph. |
| gus3 Aug 25, 2008 1:21 PM EDT |
Do you ever think to yourself, "Why, oh why didn't I take the blue pill?" Nah, me neither. |
| tuxchick Aug 25, 2008 2:05 PM EDT |
herzeleid made me seasick- what color pill should I take? |
| number6x Aug 25, 2008 2:37 PM EDT |
All this talk about 'pills' and 're-tooling' makes me think that several posters here are really spam-bots in disguise. Thank you, thank you very much! You've been a good crowd. I'll be here through Thursday. Don't forget to tip your waitresses. My next Gig will be in Redmond Washington. There's a company there looking for bad comics to push products for them. |
| azerthoth Aug 25, 2008 2:40 PM EDT |
number6x, make that trip next week. This week your talented spin us needed in Denver. |
| herzeleid Aug 25, 2008 5:41 PM EDT |
> herzeleid made me seasick- what color pill should I take? This should help. Also, take some St Johns Wort, and call my office in the morning if symptoms persist. http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php |
| hkwint Aug 25, 2008 6:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:Do you ever think to yourself, "Why, oh why didn't I take the blue pill?" No need to. My med-week-box only features yellow, white and pink ones. Actually, I never saw blue pills, ash I received a _lot_ of different pills from the pharmacy. Quoting:"some folks want to learn, some should just be pods in the Matrix" sentiments. The rest is busy reading LXer. |
| tuxchick Aug 25, 2008 6:49 PM EDT |
I want the pills with the little Ms on them. Or are they Ws? |
| dinotrac Aug 25, 2008 6:57 PM EDT |
TC -- Neither. They're 3s. |
| rijelkentaurus Aug 25, 2008 7:41 PM EDT |
I thought they were Es. :( |
| gus3 Aug 26, 2008 12:45 AM EDT |
Totally OT: A college near here, with some very liberal attitudes about body exposure, have some improvised signs on the dorm showers: M--Man inside W--Woman inside E--Empty 3--Room for one more We now return you to your regularly scheduled distraction. |
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