Agreed
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| herzeleid Aug 09, 2008 1:10 PM EDT |
We've been using an enterprise distro at my place of employment, and to be honest, we've never, ever had to call the vendor for any problem with the OS itself, or with any of the infrastructure tasks we use linux for. So, I'm pushing for ubuntu as the new platform for infrastructure, since it just works, and the LTS support of the current release until 2013 makes it an attractive proposition indeed. The canonical folks of course offer support, but they don't require that all ubuntu boxes at a site be covered. So, we can self-support all the ubuntu boxes running basic unix services and opt for enterprise support on the boxes that are running our mission critical databases etc, and canonical is fine with that. This makes a compelling case for ubuntu, and the old school enterprise distros are going to have to respond or watch their market share wither. |
| azerthoth Aug 09, 2008 2:10 PM EDT |
The compelling case against Ubuntu is the multi generational bugs, and the dev attitude of "It's someone else's problem". Both of those are well documented as well. Enterprise means it works, not, it works if you use this workaround here and this workaround there, as posted in the forums two years ago. Sorry until the Ubuntu folks can get their house in order it is IMHO a long way from enterprise ready. |
| herzeleid Aug 09, 2008 2:18 PM EDT |
I've not run into any of those problems. It just works. Perhaps there were such problems in the past, but I'm only concerned with today and beyond. As for enterprise distros, several years ago I used red hat enterprise, which caused me far more grief and had more evident bugs than anything I've seen in ubuntu. If people could call rhel enterprise ready, then ubuntu is more than ready IMHO. |
| tracyanne Aug 09, 2008 3:05 PM EDT |
@herz, I have exactly the same experience with Mandriva. It's clean, easy to manage, and it just works. Mandriva would also make a very nice addition to the server room of any SMB or School. |
| herzeleid Aug 09, 2008 5:48 PM EDT |
> I have exactly the same experience with Mandriva. It's clean, easy to manage, and it just works. Mandriva would also make a very nice addition to the server room of any SMB or School. I've heard similar things from other mandriva users - too bad they weren't at linuxworld. |
| bigg Aug 09, 2008 7:24 PM EDT |
The thing I've noticed about Mandriva is that the developers are very responsive to the community. Ubuntu, on the other hand, can only be described as arrogant IMO. From what I've seen, they're a lot like Oracle, of the "don't let the door hit you in the --- on the way out if you don't like our product" variety. Not that I've got a sample of 10,000 observations or anything, but I'm getting that impression. Time will tell, but you need a lot more than a distro if you want to be a player in that market. |
| Steven_Rosenber Aug 09, 2008 8:47 PM EDT |
From what I've seen, I think the Ubuntu developers and maintainers are trying pretty darn hard to make everything work. |
| tracyanne Aug 10, 2008 12:51 AM EDT |
Quoting:I've heard similar things from other mandriva users - too bad they weren't at linuxworld. Yeah. I've got a thread about that going on the Mandriva Forums |
| bigg Aug 10, 2008 6:18 AM EDT |
> From what I've seen, I think the Ubuntu developers and maintainers are trying pretty darn hard to make everything work. I'm sure they are. The problem is that they try to make sure everything works so long as _they_ see it as important, as opposed to the users. They do it their way. There are the multigenerational bugs mentioned above, along with the bureaucracy mentioned elsewhere. It's just a whole different experience reporting bugs to Mandriva, being able to communicate easily with Adam Williamson, etc. Again, we'll have to see how things turn out, but I'm a bit skeptical at this time. If they refuse to compile even one package because the distro is in its 'buggy stable' state, they'll lose a big chunk of their business. |
| helios Aug 10, 2008 7:17 AM EDT |
and the old school enterprise distros are going to have to respond or watch their market share wither. There are no other distros. Ubuntu is Linux and as soon as the rest of you get comfortable with this, the sooner we can be done with this "linux is choice" bs and go about our business of changing the world over to Ubuntu. The "other" distro's have warred themselves into obscurity. Shame that. I can name three of them that are hands down better than Ubuntu and none of them have let major bugs exist for three full release cycles. Bigg nailed it: "The problem is that they try to make sure everything works so long as _they_ see it as important, as opposed to the users. They do it their way." I've just returned from rebuilding a Linux Lab down in the Brownsville Texas area. Against my better judgement, I installed Ubuntu because I believe the user community and support is outstanding and the last thing I need is to hunt down some jerk in a forum for cursing or RTFM'ing a 10 year old kid. Unfortunately, a bug that has existed since 6.06 surfaced on 8 of those computers and hosed X. Has to do with the intel 845 chipsets. Since I was under a hard time deadline, I didn't have the 20 minutes per machine to spare in order to fix the problem. I ended up spending 400 bucks of my own money on nvidia cards for those machines. And please, don't respond with "well it works great on MY machine". Contrary to your beliefs, the world doesn't revolve around YOUR machine. If ubuntu and their users are going to crow about how great they are, they need to fix stuff that's been broken for three years or more. There is a long thread here at LXer, pulling all those bugs up. I even mailed copies out to three Ubuntu developers, return receipt requested. Ubuntu is a great distro but those that will now respond by coming to their defense would better serve the community by contacting your developers and asking them nicely to fix their friggin' broken distro. Oh, and those return receipt letters? I can see how much good it has done. Just installed the latest kernel from 8.04 and X is still broken after the second update with the 845 chipsets. It must be lonely at the top... h |
| herzeleid Aug 10, 2008 8:00 AM EDT |
I feel your pain - but I'm not seeing it on my hardware. At any rate, if other distros better fill your needs, keep on using them - you do have a choice. Just because ubuntu works well for me doesn't mean I have to make you run it. As long as you're running linux I'm thrilled. |
| gus3 Aug 10, 2008 9:11 AM EDT |
Quoting:Oh, and those return receipt letters?From an IT security view, SMTP return receipts are information disclosure. Most, if not all, web-based email systems ignore them, and I never configure off-line readers to acknowledge them. Unless you said, in the body of your email, "Please let me know when you have read this," in which case, my above doesn't apply. |
| helios Aug 10, 2008 10:30 AM EDT |
Gus...my bad for not expounding...they were sent USPS Certified mail with a human being having to sign for them as proof of receipt. Emailing the Ubuntu devs or posting this bug report is a documented waste of good cyber-energy. for the record...If ubuntu is THE vehicle that makes Linux occupy space on the desktop, I'm the first guy that will advocate it. Here is the problem and It's been repeated in my business time and time again. I am asked to come to someones home via HeliOS Solutions and install Linux. The customer says to me, "My (insert significant person here) says to have Ubuntu installed. That's what I want." Now, pull up the hardware profile on the target machine and bang...there it is. Intel 845/945 chipset. I tell the customer that Ubuntu "is currently working through some issues" with this particular chipset. Most times, it's a shrug and a "whatever". Sometimes, it's a "So-and-so" is adamant about Ubuntu. Can you make it work?" I leave them with specific and I said SPECIFIC instructions. DO NOT update the Kernel with any Xorg changes. Watch your updates and make sure you uncheck anything that remotely resembles an xorg update. I've even come to the point where it's in our contract. We will NOT be responsible for coming out to fix a hosed xorg if they do said updates. 6 out of ten do it anyway. They insist on marking "update automatically", their X is hosed and they either have to access their data via live cd or reinstall. From then on in, as far as they are concerned, Linux SUX and they tell everyone they know that Linux SUX. This is my problem with Ubuntu...Linux SUX because they won't fix a documented bug that has been reported dutifully for three years. It's bad enough that they blacken their own eye with stuff like this but when it paints an entire market in a negative manner, I think it's time someone take off the kid gloves and have a serious heart-2-heart with those folks. Maybe they will pay attention to you...they've quit even accepting my bug report comments on this issue. and still, I am branded an Ubuntu hater. sheesh... h |
| herzeleid Aug 10, 2008 11:48 AM EDT |
@ken - Pardon my unfamiliarity with the bug in question, as my hardware is apparently not affected, but let me take a wild guess. This is an xorg bug, right? And ubuntu wants it fixed upstream, rather than applying their own distro specific patch, is that the issue? Does the same issue exist in debian? |
| Steven_Rosenber Aug 10, 2008 3:50 PM EDT |
Helios, I'm very familiar with having machines that won't run Ubuntu/RHEL/Fedora/PCLinuxOS, what-have you. I have one machine on which Ubuntu can't be beat for out-of-the-box configuration. Others won't even boot it. It's unfortunate that every machine has one or a few "favored" distros that work well on it. I'd love to stick with the same thing for every machine I encounter. It can't be done. I have another machine on which OpenBSD auto-configures the hardware better than any Linux ... but it's from the pre-ACPI era ... I'd love to run OpenBSD on my newer laptop, but I'll never get ACPI working right. It's new to OpenBSD, and nobody seems to be "sharing" how they got it to work, or if it just happened automatically. At the risk of starting another Slackware thread, that's one that does work quite well on a large number of machines. Slackware with slapt-get and Gslapt is an excellent way to go. All of this said, I'm partial to Debian, since that has worked great on most of the machines I've tried. If I could only get suspend/resume working in Lenny on one particular machine, I'd throw over Ubuntu straight away. I'd say that the "best" distro for anybody to install is the one or ones they're most familiar with. That way problems can get solved as quickly as possible. Ubuntu still has a whole lot of momentum. Can't deny that. |
| helios Aug 10, 2008 5:09 PM EDT |
Ubuntu still has a whole lot of momentum. Can't deny that. And thus the reason I put Ubuntu on those kid's machines. They've heard of it, they've heard it's good so now they have it. I don't mind jumping on a band wagon, I just get tired of jumping off of it and having to push it when it breaks. It just doesn't work well on the white box 845/945 chipsets...and yes, I've run it extensively on Debian proper without a whimper of complaint...it seems to be an Ubuntu thing. Look, I of all people sympathize with someone shooting themselves in the foot sometimes...I have the gunshot wound scars to prove it. But when you not only do it over and over but stop for reloading and taking aim, then my sympathy turns to distain quickly. I begin to think that good bullets are being wasted on the feet. It bothers me to no end to hear people defend a faulty system. Back in the day, and the specific incident that ended that day, I went to a certain community I touted and stated that a particular problem was fixable by children and that the devs really ought to take a look at it. It soon became the storming of Castle Helios with pitchforks, torches and representatives from The "Extra's Who Play Villagers with Bad Teeth" Union. So ended my career as a one-distro zealot. I see a lot of myself in those who defend a distro that is broken and the people who built it arguing over who needs to clean up the spilt soup. And don't argue with me lest I feel compelled to mangle some more magnificent metaphors. I'm beginning to have a deep appreciation for yogi berra. h |
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