Here's my response to Dana
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tracyanne Aug 02, 2008 2:02 PM EDT |
Dana, it doesn't surprise me That you didn't have a Linux Box. You've made so many wrong statements about Linux and FOSS, that I couldn't see how you could be using Linux and be so wrong. I had a spare laptop, a 6 year old Asus with a 1 Gig Processor and 768 Meg of RAM, until last month. But I've already given it away to someone way more deserving, in the US... She didn't have a job, at the time, and is a solo Mum. So I installed Mandriva Linux 2008.0 (Spring) and shipped it to her from Australia. With Mandriva Linux installed the machine runs almost as well as a new machine, it's a little slower to boot, not really noticeable, and big applications like OO.o take a little longer to load. But she loves it, her real desktop is Firefox, and that runs the same on this machine as it does on a new machine. But I wouldn't have loaned it to you, you have the money to go out and buy a machine from ZaReason, or Emperor Linux or Linux Certified, or any other company that sells pre installed Linux, so go do it, and next time you write about Linux, do it honestly from an actual Linux box. |
| tuxtom Aug 02, 2008 2:19 PM EDT |
Well put from someone who spends a third of their life working with Microsoft technologies. |
| azerthoth Aug 02, 2008 2:39 PM EDT |
Shame on you steven, I read that article the other day, and just again to make sure I remembered correctly. He's not asking for a laptop, he's asking for up front and personal laptop reviews. He is doing the intelligent thing and asking for suggestions on what he should get. For crying out loud, it's not like every single person here hasn't asked the same question a time or two to help narrow down our research a bit. sheesh |
| tracyanne Aug 02, 2008 2:42 PM EDT |
@tuxtom, who was that directed at? |
| TxtEdMacs Aug 02, 2008 2:55 PM EDT |
Quoting:Shame on you steven, I read that article the other day, and just again to make sure I remembered correctly. I can only conclude your reading comprehension is worse than mine. He is not asking for suggestion to purchase, he is soliciting units for review to then make his choice. Read it again, why else would he point out his propensity to destroy anything. Is he going to break your heart by rejecting your purchase suggestion? Unlikely, but I am sure some here will push that interpretation. Don't be too quick to cast shame. Am I call you a dumb a.*e, NO! I may mumble it under my breath, but I would never say it out loud where polite company might hear. |
| azerthoth Aug 02, 2008 3:11 PM EDT |
My apologies, to steven, on third reading my brain managed to pick up the correct wording. so I switch my scorn to the proper target. |
| tracyanne Aug 02, 2008 3:35 PM EDT |
This bit, in Dana blog:Quoting:I know what it has to do, and I know the open source applications that can do most of it. I need a communications stack with a browser and e-mail. I need a word processor. An image editor. A way to view videos. Networking. USB support. Really got my goat. This bloke has been writing about Linux and FOSS for ages (he passes himself of as knowledgeable about Linux), and he still makes asinine comments like this. |
| bigg Aug 02, 2008 4:15 PM EDT |
And the story is what? Seriously, I'd have been shocked to find out the guy regularly uses Linux. |
| tuxtom Aug 02, 2008 5:24 PM EDT |
@tracyanne, I know it's been a while, but we've had some rather lengthly discussions on that topic in the past. Maybe you've gotten a new job since then. |
| tracyanne Aug 02, 2008 5:32 PM EDT |
No I haven't gotten a new job. I use Linux as my preferred OS, and I use windows at work because I have no choice, if I want to eat, and I like eating. I'm not a blogger and I don't pretend to be an authority on Linux and FOSS. But when I talk about Linux, right or wrong, it's from experience, same as when I talk about Windows. So the question I have is, what's your point? |
| tuxtom Aug 02, 2008 6:21 PM EDT |
@tracyanne: My specific point is that on this topic you are the pot calling the kettle black. You are a Microsoft Developer and Dana Blankenhorn is a journalist. Neither one of you claim to be an expert on Linux, yet you are crucifying the guy. Why the bad blood? True, he does have a much larger audience than you...but you have a secure job that puts lots and lots of scrumptious food on your table. Nobody's perfect here. Quoting:next time you write about Linux, do it honestly from an actual Linux box.You've never posted to LXer from a Windows box? Never? Come on... |
| tracyanne Aug 02, 2008 6:40 PM EDT |
Quoting:You've never posted to LXer from a Windows box? Never? Come on... Of course I have, when I post from work. Quoting:Dana Blankenhorn is a journalist. Neither one of you claim to be an expert on Linux Yes he does. His blog is titled Linux and Foss, and yet he doesn't even use Linux. Quoting:Nobody's perfect here. No just dishonest, the bloke has been blogging all sorts of things about Linux, mostly wrong, and now we know why. I'm neither a Journalist nor a Blogger, and I've made it quite clear that I am a Windows based Developer, who incidently prefers Linux. Dana on the other hand has set himself up to pontificate about Linux, and he doesn't even use it. At least I can talk about Windows and Linux, and even the Mac, from experience. So your point is? |
| tuxtom Aug 02, 2008 7:02 PM EDT |
Quoting:So your point is?I've already made my point. |
| herzeleid Aug 02, 2008 7:19 PM EDT |
@tuxtom - I have to agree with tracyanne here. There's something a bit queer about someone who sets himself up as a linux expert, and makes dumb@$$ statements about linux, when he doesn't even use the OS. tracyanne may have to work with windows right now to pay the bills, but she's a linux user on her own time, so she at least knows what she's talking about. |
| Steven_Rosenber Aug 02, 2008 7:57 PM EDT |
I've gotten a lot out of Dana's writing, just as I have from SJVN's. I'm more of the experiential type, like SJVN, in that I like to get my hands on the technology and use it before writing. |
| herzeleid Aug 02, 2008 8:22 PM EDT |
Quoting: I'm more of the experiential type, like SJVN, in that I like to get my hands on the technology and use it before writing.Heh, very diplomatic. |
| Steven_Rosenber Aug 02, 2008 9:06 PM EDT |
I'm not kidding -- I'm a big ZDnet fan, and I like Dana. He's a good writer. I think it's time for him to take the plunge, download (insert favorite distro here) and get to installing ... I haven't read the comments on his post yet, but I have a feeling he'll get the message. |
| gus3 Aug 02, 2008 9:34 PM EDT |
Now, there's an idea: Favorite Linux. |
| tuxchick Aug 02, 2008 9:39 PM EDT |
Tech journalism is a funny world. Sports reporters are expected to be knowledgeable about sports, and to watch games. Financial reporters are expected to have a grounding in economics and business. Reporters who work crime beats are supposed to know something about the law, and talk to cops, lawyers, and judges. But ZDNet/CNet pioneered flinging English majors with no tech knowledge into computer reporting, and it seems to have become the standard. No, you don't have to hit homeruns to be a good sports reporter, or commit crimes to be a good crime reporter. But good reporting is based on having a deep background in the subject you're covering, and most tech reporting is worthless because they don't have that background, and somehow resist acquiring it even after years in the field. |
| tuxtom Aug 02, 2008 11:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:There's something a bit queer about someone who sets himself up as a linux expert, and makes dumb@$$ statements about linux, when he doesn't even use the OS.He probably just needs to put food on the table. What's wrong with that? Quoting:But good reporting is based on having a deep background in the subject you're covering, and most tech reporting is worthless because they don't have that background, and somehow resist acquiring it even after years in the field.You'd be hard pressed to find those traits in the technologists themselves these days, much less the people doing the reporting. |
| tracyanne Aug 02, 2008 11:21 PM EDT |
Quoting:There's something a bit queer about someone who sets himself up as a linux expert, and makes dumb@$$ statements about linux, when he doesn't even use the OS. He's being dishonest, that's what's wrong with it. He's misleading people. He had two choices, put food on his table honestly or dishonestly, he chose dishonest. I can't fault him for wanting to eat. |
| tuxtom Aug 03, 2008 1:19 AM EDT |
@tracyanne:
Quoting:Quoted: You've never posted to LXer from a Windows box? Never? Come on...Is posting on a Linux message board part of your work responsibilities as a Microsoft Windows Developer? Is this being honest with your employer? I'm sorry, but it just doesn't seem right. This guy seems to be a respected member of online journalism regardless of how qualified he may or may not be considered in a given subject area. We've all had to dive in and become an instant expert at some point of our lives and probably made glaring fools of ourselves at times. You obviously don't care for him. To each their own. But to hammer him down and demand whatever modicum of perfection you're demanding while you yourself are carrying flaws of similar magnitude is hypocritical. He's only trying to appeal to the masses the best he can. Seems pretty honest to me. That's his job. For you this is just a hobby on the side of a questionably motivated Microsoft-centric career. "I'm just a poor little girl trying to keep from starving to death in the Outback" is dishonest. The truth is far more elitist. |
| jacog Aug 03, 2008 2:16 AM EDT |
tuxtom... I think your logic that because someone has a job where they use Windows, automatically makes it equally surprising that they would have a Linux box, is a bit far fetched. Worse, it makes NO sense. And her job is not to be a Linux journalist. I am a Linux user, and have Linux on two desktops, a laptop, and our Eee - but my job is entirely Window-centric. There just isn't a lot of Linux work down here, depsite what you may read in the news about how South Africa is so very pro open source. Things may be different where you live, but honestly... how can you make such judgement calls about someone in Australia? If one's job, on the other hand, is to be an author on Liinux related topics, I would think a basic requirement would be to at least be an actual Linux user. Pardon the personal attack here, all, but seriously... I think you are just being an opportunistic obnoxious git here. Your comments seem random, to be honest. |
| tracyanne Aug 03, 2008 2:51 AM EDT |
Quoting:Is posting on a Linux message board part of your work responsibilities as a Microsoft Windows Developer? Is this being honest with your employer? I do have lunch breaks you know, at which times all three of us, the boss myself and the other bloke, surf the web and or do our own thing, So while it is not part of my responsibilities, it's certainly part of my free time. Being able to demonstrate that our websites have problems on Linux or Mac or this browser or that, and how to fix it is, however, part of what I am required to do. On the other hand I've never claimed to a knowledge of linux that I don't have, or passed myself off as some sort of expert on an operating system I've never used. Quoting:This guy seems to be a respected member of online journalism regardless of how qualified he may or may not be considered in a given subject area. I have no problems with the fact that he's a journalist, he's probably a very good one Quoting:We've all had to dive in and become an instant expert at some point of our lives and probably made glaring fools of ourselves at times. Except of course he didn't have to dive in, and he's had plenty of time to install Linux, or buy, he gets paid enough, a machine with a pre installed copy of Linux, and actually learn about it. Quoting:You obviously don't care for him. I never really cared one way or another, based on his erroneous comments about Linux, I thought he was a bit of a pillock, now I know different. Quoting:But to hammer him down and demand whatever modicum of perfection you're demanding while you yourself are carrying flaws of similar magnitude is hypocritical. Oh I have flaws, just not the ones you are trying so hard to make a case about. I'm pretty sure, also, that nothing I say about, or to him him, is about to have much, if any effect on him. Quoting:He's only trying to appeal to the masses the best he can. Seems pretty honest to me. Seems pretty dishonest to me, especially as he's had plenty of time to both come clean about not actually knowing anything about Linux, and that he doesn't use it, and do something to remedy the situation. Quoting:That's his job. That's right it's his job, it's his job to be fully informed, and he obviously isn't, and he's made no attempt to remedy the situation until now, and only because his Windows machine died. Quoting:For you this is just a hobby Probably, Which means I don't have any reason to be fully informed on the subject. Quoting:on the side of a questionably motivated Microsoft-centric career. "I'm just a poor little girl trying to keep from starving to death in the Outback" is dishonest. The truth is far more elitist. And as I've made no bones about the fact that I am a Developer working with Microsoft technology, and was so before I discovered Linux. Oh and I won't starve, we have the Dole here, so I have the choice, life's a lot more fun when you have enough money coming in to plan for the future. |
| jdixon Aug 03, 2008 7:16 AM EDT |
> My specific point is that on this topic you are the pot calling the kettle black. The same could be said for most of us here. We live in a world dominated by Windows. Most of us have little choice but to interact with it in one way or another. I'm a desktop support tech (the official title is Lan Administrator). Guess which OS I support and have to use at work? I use Linux almost exclusively at home, the exception being a FreeDOS box which runs some old games, and I've been using it since 1994, but I still post from a Windows box when I'm at work. > Financial reporters are expected to have a grounding in economics and business. Well, that may be stretching matters a bit, from what I've seen. > Is posting on a Linux message board part of your work responsibilities as a Microsoft Windows Developer? That's a low blow, and has no place in a civil discussion. What she does in her free time at work is entirely between her and her employer. |
| herzeleid Aug 03, 2008 8:17 AM EDT |
> The same could be said for most of us here. We live in a world dominated by Windows. I've been a unix admin since the 90s, and have been using linux on the desktop since that time. I work almost exclusively with linux servers, so I can't be so easily dismissed with the "hobbyist" label. I've been offered jobs in the past which sounded like great opportunities, but I turned them down because the responsibilities did not sufficiently match my own experience and abilities. If and when I do accept a position, I immerse myself in the technology and come up to a level of competence ASAP. I'd expect no less from a professional IT journalist. |
| TxtEdMacs Aug 03, 2008 5:18 PM EDT |
tuxtom, I get it! For someone that has been jumping down everyone's throat given the slightest pretext, to tell all and sundry how wrong they are being too critical of some misunderstood individual ... all the above is a joke. Quite subtle, you my sincere congratulations and admiration. I truly envy your delivery. I am such an amateur with the feeble ploys I drop now and again. But you are a true Master. What a sense of humor? |
| tuxchick Aug 03, 2008 5:39 PM EDT |
Quoting: This guy seems to be a respected member of online journalism regardless of how qualified he may or may not be considered in a given subject area. We've all had to dive in and become an instant expert at some point of our lives and probably made glaring fools of ourselves at times. You obviously don't care for him... I don't know about respected, and certainly it's fair to expect him to be qualified. Tracyanne called him on the quality of his work, which is there for everyone to see. Quoting: Either you're very confused, or trolling. |
| dumper4311 Aug 03, 2008 6:57 PM EDT |
@tuxchick: >"Either you're very confused, or trolling." It's a good thing you threw that out. As many times as you've hit me with that label, I would have been deeply offended if you hadn't labeled tuxtom's inane comments as such. :) @tracyanne: As you recently encouraged me, I'd advise just letting this one go. There's one key characteristic missing for this to be an intelligent discussion . . . care to guess what that might be? :) |
| TxtEdMacs Aug 04, 2008 4:12 AM EDT |
Hey dumpster, This is your first post on this thread, are you lost? Or a simple case of cross thread pollution where your expectation of (and solicitation of) insults exceeds the not so slight capacity of site luminaries to deliver? An apology might be in order or just maybe an edit that removes the attack. It would be greatly appreciated. However, if you insist to retain your feelings of outrage, go up a couple posts up and see that one addressed to your name. Then rage on if you must. [The thought has occurred to me, that this is a case of multiple identities. However, in the standard medical literature the usual case is the supposed separate identities are at war with one another. Moreover, the nicer ones are completely oblivious of the existence of the vile, alter egos. Nonetheless, you two are more like twins. Perhaps one of the site administrators could sort this out for you. It could have the beneficial effect of lessening the nastiness of the exchanges. Let me encourage you to seek help.] |
| dumper4311 Aug 04, 2008 8:43 AM EDT |
@TxtEdMacs: Help me out here, friend - you've left me a little confused. Lets just assume that you're much smarter than I, and that you'll need to write in short sentences, with small words for my benefit, ok? 1) Who's dumpster? I'm assuming you were addressing me, but that may be our first miscommunication. 2) What post addressed to my name? A couple posts up is one from you addressed to tuxtom. 3) What outrage? I'm not at all bent over the contents of this thread. I found tuxtom's comments inane, and applauded tuxchick (in a backwards kind of way) for calling him on it. I'm not ticked at tuxtom, and have nothing against him (gender assumption on my part, please forgive me if I'm mistaken) - I simply thought he was way off base. My only other comment was one in support of tracyanne's position. 4) Apologize for what, exactly? I'm still trying to understand who it is you think I've attacked, please explain your own outrage at my post. In fact, the only personal attack I can find is your implication that I suffer from MPD. So yes, now I am a bit lost, but only insofar as is related to your rant. Care to enlighten me? |
| TxtEdMacs Aug 04, 2008 12:09 PM EDT |
dumper4311 (aka dumpster), This will have to be quick, since I have no time to answer fully. Nonetheless, I think I owe your an apology having both misread your words and intent. Here I am the one at fault reading what I presumed was present and thinking you were attacking these individuals. You did not and were not, respectively. I was too quick to take offense where there was none to be taken. Usually, I throw more comments away, despite repeated revisions to get the right wording. Had I been lucky I should have dumped this one. The alias I applied to you was completely inappropriate, whereas Tuxedo Tom will forever more be my image of an acidic based comedian with a large Cuban cigar spewing bile without factual foundation. I am ashamed to see that now puts me into his group, by claiming that's where you belonged. Simply stated, nearly everything I wrote or implied in my note was WRONG. Quoting: ... Lets just assume that you're much smarter than I ... Bigger words are no indication of intellect. Moreover, they can make one more prone to bigger screw ups like this one. Need more, email me through LXer. I am trying to finish a project. Txt. |
| dumper4311 Aug 04, 2008 1:10 PM EDT |
@TxtEdMacs: No problem, things like that happen. Thank you for your reply and your honesty. As far as I'm concerned, it's a non-issue. Good fortune with your project. |
| tuxchick Aug 04, 2008 1:13 PM EDT |
Group hug! *run away fast* |
| Sander_Marechal Aug 04, 2008 1:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:*run away fast* What? You don't want to join in? :-) |
| tuxchick Aug 04, 2008 2:10 PM EDT |
Well Sander, it's hot and people are sweaty. So- no! :) |
| tracyanne Aug 05, 2008 1:29 PM EDT |
The cheapskate is still asking people to give him a computer http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2741 , and airing his ignorance as well. |
| tuxchick Aug 05, 2008 2:03 PM EDT |
Quoting: I sort of expected a vendor representative to write and offer a unit, but that did not happen. This may tell more about the state of this market than anything else. Actually it means that vendors aren't reading his column in hopes of finding freeloaders to give things to :). This whole deal is silly- he knows as well as anyone that the way to get review units is to contact vendors and ask. You also ask them for information, and maybe get an interview out of the deal. Laptops (and phones and cameras) are hot items, so they don't loan them to just anyone- the vendor will want an actual review to appear, in a timely fashion, on a site with more than a half-dozen readers, and pets don't count. Then they will want their stuff returned, again in a timely fashion, and in good condition. Sometimes you can buy review units at a discount. If you have a reputation as a mooch you won't get review items. I don't believe he is serious about getting a Linux laptop to review- it's just a dumb stunt. |
| Steven_Rosenber Aug 05, 2008 4:21 PM EDT |
1) Get laptop (just about any will do). 2) Install distro of your choice. 3) Use it. It's not all that hard, or I wouldn't be able to do it. I blog, too. Nobody's offering me any free laptops, either. |
| Steven_Rosenber Aug 05, 2008 4:45 PM EDT |
I wrote this reply to Dana's most recent blog entry: Bottom line, if you're writing about Linux and open source, then you owe it to yourself and your readers to spend some time doing Linux installs and seeing how they work. Get yourself a PC -- any PC -- and start downloading ISOs and burning them to CD, and start seeing how the various distros work and what you like. Ubuntu, Debian, Mandriva, PCLinuxOS, Slackware, ZenWalk ... and a few hundred more. There are plenty of choices. The future may very well be in preloaded Linux PCs, but the present is very much an install-it-yourself era, and Dana, I think you need to buy into this concept and get off the pot. Link: http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10535-0.html?forumID=1&thread... |
| tuxtom Aug 05, 2008 11:54 PM EDT |
WOW!!! Seems I created quite a stir here. Not sure if that's good or bad, but it's happenin' so I'll roll with it. Opportunistic obnoxious git? That's sounds so pompous, even comical...us 'mericans don't talk that way. However, it could very well be true. (I'd love to hear myself called that in Afrikaans) Troll? I'd be a liar if I told you I didn't dabble with the verb at times, but I'm not the noun. Inane? Usually, around here anyway. Depends who you talk to. It's contagious. Everybody's got it at one time or another. Much of the context behind my remarks goes back to a lengthy discussion several months (over a year?) ago with tracyanne where she openly denigrated open source development tools in favor of Microsoft Visual Studio, vehemently condemning the entire broad spectrum of FOSS as sub-par. She drove her point home very hard. By the end of that discussion (which wasn't going in her favor), she had resorted to justifying her position by soliciting sympathy for her employment circumstances, making it seem as if there were a gun put to her head to develop on Microsoft because she lived in AU. (On a related side note: a google of "australia linux jobs" will keep a person as busy as they want to be. There's gotta be a diamond or two in there. Beats reading Dana's blog, huh?) BTW: I'd love to pull up the old thread but this inferior FOSS technology here on LXer won't let me search by user, date or keyword. Darn PHP. Oh well, thanks for the credit card numbers. Back to the topic: You might think this wouldn't be THAT big a deal, even if it were somewhat offensive to this audience. Now here on LXer, Linux is not just a hobby...it is the end-all, be-all of computing. ANYTHING Microsoft is 100% evil. Any mention of the company or its products deserves a swift, critical retort. The Prime Directive is 100% domination, and Microsoft's gotta go...like, yesterday. (I find this immature and unrealistic, yet it is pervasive and omnipresent here at LXer and perpetrated most prolifically by those who deny it, particularly those who hate PHP.) How can someone be loyal to LXer...Linux itself...and be loyal to Microsoft at the same time? 2 + 2 != 5 Does not compute, does not compute, must say something, must say something... A nerve was really struck when I read her comments above. I guess I still have a bad taste in my mouth from that previous discussion many months ago. I wish I never had that discussion. I wish I never read her true thoughts and feelings on the subject. I wish it went away and never came back. But wishing doesn't change a thing. Tracyanne is part of this community, everyone likes her...I like her. She seems sincerely interested. She likes her Mandrake, fer sure. Good stuff. Yet, she is sleeping with the enemy: not because she has to...but because she believes the enemy is SUPERIOR. I thought to myself: "Elitist about Microsoft, now elitist about Linux? Didn't she say she didn't have the time to learn FOSS development and that it was inferior, yet now she's gonna call people down on their take on Linux?". That was my reaction. I'm not defending it, I'm explaining it. I can't change it. It happened. Call me all the names you want...I am not calling anyone here names, mind you. This is a matter of principal, not etiquette. I just bared my soul to you, however despicable you may find it. I'm actually a sweetheart. Candy for everybody!!! http://www.tuxtom.com |
| tracyanne Aug 06, 2008 12:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:I don't believe he is serious about getting a Linux laptop to review- it's just a dumb stunt. I tend to agree, I think he'd take one if it was given to him, I think he's trying to freeload. In all this time that he's been writing about Linux, not once has he had a Linux box, not even as a second computer, and now that his Windows box has died he wants someone to give him a one. |
| gus3 Aug 06, 2008 12:37 AM EDT |
Memo to Dana: Just because the software's free, doesn't mean the hardware is. That, and learn the difference between "free speech" and "free beer." |
| jacog Aug 06, 2008 2:28 AM EDT |
Holy wall of text, Batman. |
| Sander_Marechal Aug 06, 2008 2:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:BTW: I'd love to pull up the old thread but this inferior FOSS technology here on LXer won't let me search by user, date or keyword. Use google. It has the entire forum indexed and is actually pretty good at it. Just enter your keywords and slap "site:lxer.com" at the end of your query. If you get too many results from news articles, also slap an "inurl:forums" in there. Is this the one you're looking for? http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/26820/ |
| jdixon Aug 06, 2008 2:43 AM EDT |
> but this inferior FOSS technology here on LXer won't let me search by user Eh? Searching on tracyanne gives you 8 hits. Clicking on the tracyanne in "posted by tracyanne" in any of those links pulls up her entire posting history (73 stories). > On a related side note: a google of "australia linux jobs" will keep a person as busy as they want to be. You really have no idea how big Australia is, do you? |
| tracyanne Aug 06, 2008 2:49 AM EDT |
Quoting:You really have no idea how big Australia is, do you? Yep, My state Queensland is bigger than Alaska, and Texas would fit inside Queensland several times. |
| tuxchick Aug 06, 2008 6:19 AM EDT |
Quoting: Just because the software's free, doesn't mean the hardware is. lol gus3. See, that hippie commie Linux junk has ruint everyone's values! Now they expect freebies all over the place. |
| gus3 Aug 06, 2008 7:56 AM EDT |
Quoting:See, that hippie commie Linux junk has ruint everyone's values! Now they expect freebies all over the place.Nah, only the pundits whose business is to talk and type. They talk about, and talk about, and talk about, with little or no serious research. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!