They think KDE 4 is ready?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| bigg Jun 29, 2008 7:33 PM EDT |
Reading the comments, I can't believe the KDE devs actually think KDE 4.1 is usable. I'm a GNOME user, but for goodness sake, is it possible to believe KDE 4 is suitable for getting work done? SJVN is correct - KDE 4.x is still a heap of cow dung. It's at best in an alpha state IMO. Not all the features are even implemented and not all apps are finished. |
| tracyanne Jun 29, 2008 8:11 PM EDT |
How in the h*** do you log in to this SJVN's bolg site to make comments? I'm d@mned if I can get in there to post, so I'll post my comments here. Steven I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. I keep trying KDE 4, and I can't for the life of me see that it's a better user experience for the user, namely me. The more I try to do something useful with it the more useless the new KDE desktop appears to be. aseigo, KDE 4 is a steaming pile of excrement. I can't even get new Linux users, the mom and dad types, who can barely send emails, and are afraid of their web browser, I do Linux installs for, to use the new Kickoff menu on KDE 3.x, they hate it. They prefer the old classic menu, because it makes more sense and has everything visible to them, even though they have problems controlling the mouse on it. They find the Kickoff menu obscure, and difficult, even though they have no trouble controlling the mouse on it. aseigo, what for example, is the point of the magnify functionality on the desktop? What exactly is the point of makeing the desktop background, and indeed the area from which one Magnifies and unmagnifies the desktop take up a quarter or an eighth of the screen's real estate? It appears totally pointless. |
| jezuch Jun 29, 2008 10:06 PM EDT |
I tried KDE4.soontobe1 this weekend and I came back to 3.x the next day, although I was hoping this won't be necessary. The last straw for me was Dolphin and its complete inability to select files using only keyboard... But my impression is that overall it's pretty good, but the small things are killing me, especially that it's a big swarm of small things. |
| theBeez Jun 30, 2008 12:12 AM EDT |
Well, sjvn first has to put his money where his mouth is. Note I wouldn't mind a fork, but to maintain a product like that you need a vast number of programmers and a dedicated community. And whether it be money or time, somebody has got to pay for it. I don't see sjvn doing it all by himself. If a sufficient number of users/programmers are available, an organization has to be created. Who is gonna do that? Maybe that is what sjvn wants to do. A call in the wild, like sjvn is doing now, is exactly what we've been rejecting from corporations all this time. You can't just say "Somebody has got to do something, but it isn't me". And what if e.g. KDE 4.3 proves to be something useful? Are all people abandoning the "Classic" project, knowing all their efforts have been in vain or are we facing another split in the desktop? Note Gnome was created because of KDE licensing issues, not because KDE was so different from what they (FSF) needed. IMHO there are issues, although if KDE4 proves to be going nowhere, I'll be the first one to applaud such a move. But like the release of KDE 4.0 and the removal of several features from the KDE 4.0 codebase and architecture, I still feel it is all a bit too early. |
| dale77 Jun 30, 2008 12:17 AM EDT |
A somewhat more positive view of KDE4.1 beta... http://polishlinux.org/kde/kde-41-the-annoyances/ It is exciting to see these guys putting a lot of effort into a new desktop. Perhaps they need more encouragement than criticism? |
| tracyanne Jun 30, 2008 12:40 AM EDT |
Quoting:Perhaps they need more encouragement than criticism? Perhaps they need to take a long hard look at what ordinary users are saying. |
| r_a_trip Jun 30, 2008 1:40 AM EDT |
Commenting on JSVN's blog seems to be impossible, I couldn't get it to work either. It seems the KDE4 devs don't see the severity of the problem they have on their hands. KDE4 has vision. KDE4 is radical. KDE4 has a lot of potential. KDE4 is still rough but will improve. All explanations of why people need to hang in, but it totally lacks understanding that people need a functional desktop for day to day use and (real or not) KDE4 doesn't seem to deliver that. I assume that the KDE4 team wants to deliver a usable DE for the maximum amount of people out there. KDE3 has been deprecated and the current KDE4 is rejected by large numbers. KDE doesn't have a clear upgrade path right now. It is a very dire position to be in as a project. No matter how good KDE4 could become in the future, people need usable software now. A usable KDE4 seems to be vaporware at the moment and that is causing unrest. Fedora is already pushing KDE4 and the other distros won't be far behind. So all the KDE users who aren't convinced by KDE4 see their favorite desktop go down the drain. I would be uneasy as well if Gnome deprecated 2.x and delivered a highly unfinished 3.1 as the replacement. |
| rijelkentaurus Jun 30, 2008 2:04 AM EDT |
KDE4: Vista for Linux. |
| jacog Jun 30, 2008 4:26 AM EDT |
I too have not been too thrilled with KDE4. It was a few "features" that just make me pause and ask "why?". I have a question though for people that have tinkered with it more than I have. Is it at all possible to configure (not code hack) KDE4 to behave in the same or similar way to KDE3.5-ish? If so, then I think we should urge distros who feel compelled to ship KDE4 to at least package theirs with a "Make like KDE3.5.x" option. |
| bigg Jun 30, 2008 4:37 AM EDT |
> overall it's pretty good, but the small things are killing me, especially that it's a big swarm of small things. That's exactly my take on it. When you start using it, you say "Wow, this is great!" Then after a few minutes you say "Cr@p, why'd they do that?" over some small issue. Then after a while you have had a lot of WTF moments and go back to what you were using before. |
| tracyanne Jun 30, 2008 4:37 AM EDT |
@ jacog, as it stands, it's unlikely. On the other hand I read in aseigo's blog, where he states, very disparagingly, that you will be able to. |
| jacog Jun 30, 2008 5:34 AM EDT |
This is like Death of a Salesman. At some point the KDE folks are going to come to a shocking conclusion... "Oh yeah, this actually stinks." |
| mark_oz Jun 30, 2008 6:04 AM EDT |
@ jacog Your question: "Is it at all possible to configure (not code hack) KDE4 to behave in the same or similar way to KDE3.5-ish?" AFAIK, the answer is: yes you can configure KDE 4 to be exactly like KDE 3 was, if you want. AFAIK, this is a design aim of KDE 4. This article, for example, talks about the KDE 4 desktop: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080627-first-look-kde... "The folder view plasmoid, which is intended to serve as a replacement for the conventional desktop icon system, is also a lot stronger in this release. This plasmoid will display all of the icons for files in a specified folder. It now provides proper support for drag-and-drop copy/move operations and for right-click contextual menus. It also allows users to drag the icons into arbitrary positions and select multiple icons with a lasso. This means that it now provides full feature parity with a conventional desktop." OK, you ask, but how does it achieve "full feature parity with KDE 3"? Well, the answer is, you create a fullscreen folderview plasmoid with a transparent background, showing your ~/Desktop folder. Hey presto, a desktop with icons from your ~/Desktop folder that you can arrange however you like ... just like your KDE 3 desktop was. All of this complaint about KDE 4 is like this, it is truly a storm in a teacup right now. People simply haven't worked KDE 4 out yet ... and it isn't quite finished yet either, especially the Plasma parts. Wait till KDE 4.1 is released ... then ask "how do I get equivalent to KDE 3"? Someone should be able to tell you, or if you use a bit of imagination, you could figure it out for yourself. Mind you, getting the equivalent of KDE 3 is missing out somewhat on the extra power, flexibility, elegance and usability improvements of KDE 4. Just on this folderview plasmoid, for example ... sure you can make it behave just like KDE 3 ... but in KDE 4 you can also arrange several folderviews of different folders, and in conjunction with multiple desktops you can arrange a very powerful set of different desktops arranged around different tasks you might be doing ... as just one example. |
| gus3 Jun 30, 2008 7:32 AM EDT |
I'm sure that question has been asked too many times to count by now. If I were asking this in GNOME, I'd be developing a script to do the revert automatically in GConf2. |
| DrDubious Jun 30, 2008 8:01 AM EDT |
The way I look at it, the real underlying purpose of the KDE4 rewrite was to use QT4. Given that most of the complaining about the KDE 3.5.x series seemed to be about the lack of certain "eye-candy" special-effects, I tend to suspect that's what the developers assumed was most important to get working first in KDE4 (not realizing that the reason that was the majority of the complaints was because KDE 3.5.x has solved most of the functionality issues that people would otherwise be inclined to complain about.) So, we get KDE 4.0x as a "tech preview" with allegedly-pretty "shiny bubble" icons but far too little actual functionality and several missing key applications (for me: kmail, akregator, k3b, and amarok). I suspect 4.1 will still be deficient in functionality, though better than 4.0, and hopefully the developers will be ready to focus on putting back all the missing functionality ("right-click -> to current desktop", "create new folder" in the context menu in dolphin, ability to shrink the gigantic-shiny-bubble "panel" and scale the "widgets" so they're still visible, proper metadata display as 3.5 had...etc.) Seriously - at the end of the month, when 4.1 is supposed to finally be released, that's the time to start hammering hard on the devs to fix the functionality at bugs.kde.org. I suspect that unlike 4.0, they won't already be too busy with the next series to actually fix the problems... |
| jezuch Jun 30, 2008 12:06 PM EDT |
Quoting:KDE3 has been deprecated KDE devs swear that it's not true. Quoting:AFAIK, the answer is: yes you can configure KDE 4 to be exactly like KDE 3 was, if you want So, how do I enable file selection by INS/SPACE and with sane cursor movement in Dolphin? |
| tracyanne Jun 30, 2008 1:19 PM EDT |
@mark_oz, So tell me what is the point of the Zoom Out/Zoom In that is accessible at the Top RH of the 4.1 Beta (and previous) desktop? All it seems to do is make the wallpaper smaller. No one seems to be able to give me an answer to this. |
| hkwint Jun 30, 2008 2:49 PM EDT |
Quoting:No one seems to be able to give me an answer to this. Because you are asking to the wrong people. Find out who is in the KDE-usability team and drop them a mail. http://usability.kde.org/communication/ However, first read the mailing-list because your concerns might already have been addressed: http://usability.kde.org/communication/mailinglist.php They are the ones who decided about 50%+ of the KDE4-stuff people are complaining about, and I'm afraid most LXer readers are not able to motivate their decisions. After you have an answer, publish it here on LXer, that would be really helpful (much more helpful than complaining to a bunch of people of which a lot - like me - don't even _use_ KDE). That goes for all other complaints to: I would be very happy if you people told about these complaints to the KDE-usability team and wrote an article (LXer would be delighted to publish it as long as it's decent!) about their responses, discussions etc. I think the KDE-usability team would be happy to directly receive some feedback too and being able to answer - instead of being bashed at forums like this one. So that would make both parties satisfied I think, so please _ACT_ instead of complaining here! On the other hand, the KDE4 things people are complaining about is only the user-interface of KDE4. Nobody complains about the new dictionary / PIM / device integration / sound libraries KDE4 boosts. Probably most people complaining don't even now about what actually _IS_ KDE4. That's sad to see (again!). All complaints are about Phonon and Dolphin. Complaining about Dolphin doesn't make sense, since Konqueror and Krusader are still there. Complaints about Konqueror being changed in KDE4 with respect to KDE3 I can understand. So basically the only complaint is Konqueror changed between KDE3 and 4, and Phonon. Well, looking at the amount of work (and change) that went into KDE4, I'd say that's not much; only a small portion of what KDE4 encompasses. However, I agree, it's exactly the portion that makes it impossible for people to do their work in the way they want. Now, what would be the alternative? Putting the old GUI on the new KDE4 libraries I guess, or just keep on using KDE3. Anyway, I'm happy KDE didn't take the Microsoft approach (incremental backwards-compatible deterioration like with Vista and Win7) and went for a drastic change. As I understand the new code-base is much 'cleaner', easier to understand for new developers and modular because of some 'new' layers. So I think it's more future-proof than KDE3 was. Of course it's sad people complain about the (G)UI, and I wonder if only people who have used KDE3 before are complaining. If 'new' KDE users (who didn't use KDE2/3) don't complain about KDE4, then from a neutral point of view the only problem could be KDE4 doesn't have the same capabilities as KDE3, which still would be a valid complaint. Then the solution would be bringing KDE3's capabilities (such as Kicker etc.) to KDE4. If the new KDE-users also complain, then the 'usability' team did a bad job and Plasma needs to be (partially / fully) redone. Now, that's what I'd like to find out (and I'm going too once I find some time). |
| tracyanne Jun 30, 2008 5:02 PM EDT |
Quoting:If 'new' KDE users (who didn't use KDE2/3) don't complain about KDE4 I have new Linux users, who hate the new Kickoff menu, which is now available as an option (the default option, in the case of Mandriva) on KDE 3.5.9. They find it difficult to use, and when I give them the Classic menu they say they prefer it, even though they have problems, at first, using the mouse on it. Does that count? Obviously these people are not going to complain to the KDE team. |
| azerthoth Jun 30, 2008 6:34 PM EDT |
I have to agree, does a new user know to complain or where to complain that they don't like something or do they just say "it sucks" and in turn infer that all of linux sucks? How do you hear a new user when the normal reaction is to turn and walk away? |
| bigg Jun 30, 2008 6:56 PM EDT |
> who hate the new Kickoff menu Not hating it is a sign of mental illness. I've never seen a less efficient, well, anything on a computer. Vista is messed up, but that menu is far beyond any of the Vista screwups. And I could not just remove it - all I could find was a way to add the classic menu on the right side. At least I could remove the weird opensuse menu in GNOME and easily replace it with the traditional menu. I'm happy to not use KDE right about now. |
| tracyanne Jun 30, 2008 7:41 PM EDT |
Quoting:does a new user know to complain or where to complain that they don't like something or do they just say "it sucks" and in turn infer that all of linux sucks? Well in my case they complain to me, after all I'm the one who set their system up, and told them they had to contact me if they had ANY problems. In a couple of cases I picked up that they were having trouble with the Kickoff menu, but were blaming themselves, so I showed them the Classic menu, after which they said itwas much better. |
| tuxchick Jun 30, 2008 8:42 PM EDT |
My goodness, poor old KDE4 is sure taking a beating. Must be a slow news day. Anyone putting it on production machines is being a bit foolish- it's not ready, and the dev team keep saying it's not ready. It's a complete overhaul of KDE that's barely 8 months old- for gosh sakes folks, take some chill pills. This sounds like a gang of Windows weenies complaining that someone moved the any key and they can't find it. |
| gus3 Jun 30, 2008 9:14 PM EDT |
@tc: If it isn't ready, why doesn't it have a Beta tag, or even an Alpha tag? Why did they give it a release version (actually, 2 release versions) instead? |
| tuxchick Jun 30, 2008 9:29 PM EDT |
Well gus, it does:
http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-4.1-beta2.php
"KDE 4.1 Beta 2 Release AnnounKDE Community Announces Second Beta Release of KDE 4.1
June 24, 2008 (The INTERNET). The KDE Community is proud to announce the second beta release of KDE 4.1. Beta 2 is aimed at testers, community members and enthusiasts in order to identify bugs and regressions, so that 4.1 can fully replace KDE 3 for end users. KDE 4.1 beta 2 is available as binary packages for a wide range of platforms, and as source packages. KDE 4.1 is due for final release in late July 2008." I doubt that July 2008 is a realistic final release date. Regardless, it takes a special effort to not know that it's still a baby and needs a lot of work. |
| tracyanne Jun 30, 2008 9:44 PM EDT |
Quoting:Regardless, it takes a special effort to not know that it's still a baby and needs a lot of work. That's what I keep saying, KDE 4.1. Beta 2 should be alpha. and based on my experience of 4.1 Beta, 4.1 certainly won't be ready for prime time. |
| Laika Jul 01, 2008 12:57 AM EDT |
People need to chill down and have some patience. KDE developers keep telling that KDE4 will be more configurable and more poweful than KDE3 ever was, but it's just not quite there yet. So please calm down and take a look at what has changed between KDE 4.0 and 4.1, and then you should be able to see more clearly where KDE4 is heading. The KDE4 user interface has already improved a lot since the introduction of 4.0 about six months ago. There's no doubt that KDE 4.1 will be faster and much more stable than 4.0 was. In KDE 4.1 Beta you can already configure the size of the panel, you can choose whether you want to use the Kickoff menu or the traditional style menu, and you can get desktop icons with the Folder View desktop widget. Also, more applications (like ktorrent and k3b) now support KDE4. And, of course, KDE4 looks much better than KDE3. Huge improvements have taken place in the underlying technology from KDE3 to KDE4. But it will probably take at least until 4.2 or 4.3, maybe even longer, before the KDE4 user interface is ready to take full advantage of these improvements. But KDE developers are definitely on the right track (as the added configuration options between 4.0 and 4.1 clearly testify) and forking KDE at this point of time, when the user interface improvements and configuration options have just started flowing in to KDE4, sounds like an immensely ill-advised idea. |
| jacog Jul 01, 2008 1:18 AM EDT |
I think people would be complaining a lot less if hte original 4.0 was called a pre-alpha release, the current 4.1 as the 4.0 beta, and whatever we are getting after 4.1 as a possible second beta. The current versioning system is creating the illusion that it is ready for use. |
| dinotrac Jul 01, 2008 1:19 AM EDT |
>People need to chill down and have some patience. KDE developers keep telling that KDE4 will be more configurable and more poweful than KDE3 ever was Really? I don't know about that. KDE 4 is beginning to look an awful lot like code masturbation. Developers convinced they are masters of the universe decide to deliver The Next Great Thing and pity those poor stupid users who just don't get it. SJVN is getting crap from some people, but the last time I saw something like this was nearly ten years ago when the Mozilla folks decided that the old code base had to be tossed and something new and whiz-bang had to be started. The facts are a little different, but the developer-first, screw the needs of the user, who cares how long it takes to play with our shiny toys because we don't give a rat's behind mentality seems much the same. Oh -- and that fork. Seems to me that Netscape/Mozilla basically stood back and let IE take over the internet until somebody effectively forked the project (whether or not you wish to call it a fork) with Firefox. Who knows? We may one day get over all of the lingering effects of a browser monopoly. But then, I'm sure the developers had a lot of fun. |
| mark_oz Jul 01, 2008 2:14 AM EDT |
> I have new Linux users, who hate the new Kickoff menu, which is now available as an option (the default option, in the
> case of Mandriva) on KDE 3.5.9. They find it difficult to use, and when I give them the Classic menu they say they
> prefer it, even though they have problems, at first, using the mouse on it. Once again ... although the new kickoff menu is the default in the panel the old KDE 3 style menu is a default plasmoid. If you prefer the old KDE 3 style menu, make it a plasmoid on your desktop, delete the KDE 4 kickoff menu from the panel, and drag the old KDE 3 style menu from your desktop on to the panel in its place. This will get you the old KDE 3 style menu "feature parity" on your desktop panel. If you (as admin) wish to make this the default for all your new users ... after making this change for one new "template" new user, as root copy that new "template" user's ~/.kde directory back to /etc/skel and change the permissions. If you want to do this for a whole batch of new users ... here is a howto for you: http://www.howtoforge.com/user_password_creating_with_a_bash... ... all you need to do is create one new "template" user under KDE 4, install a nice new theme for that user (the default one for KDE 4 is a bit ugly, with that black background and too-thick panel), change the desktop to a nice folderview setup for that user, re-size the panel, replace the kickoff menu for the old KDE 3 style menu for that user ... once you are hapy, copy that "template" user's setup back to /etc/skel . Now create a list of real new usernames that you want to add, and setup a batch scipt as is explained in the howto. In a few minutes you can setup new accounts for even hundreds of new users in any way that you like that is not the same as the distributions default new user configuration ... but is more like KDE 3 was if you prefer. |
| tracyanne Jul 01, 2008 2:45 AM EDT |
@mark_oz I wasn't asking for advice on how to do this. I've already worked that out on the beta of 4.1 that I've got. As seems to be the case with the KDE devs, you missed the point. I was pointing out that users both new to Linux and KDE, don't like the Kickoff menu, because they find it unintuitive and difficult to use, and in contrast they find the Classic menu easier to use.. but they find it easier to use because it's more intuitive. The point is not how do I replace the Kickoff menu, the point is the Kickoff menu seems to be intuitive only to the KDE devs, and you I suppose. To the rest of us, mere mortals, it's not. As for myself, personally, the Kickoff menu requires too many mouse actions to get anything done. For example to to open drakconf from the kickoff menu. I have to click on the Menu button, to get the menu to pop up, mouse over the applications tab (sometimes it loads the applications menu immediately sometimes it takes longer, in which case I click the mouse to load the applications menu) then I have to scroll down tools and click the mouse to get the Tools menu to load, then I have to click on System Tools to get the System Tools menu to load, then I have to scroll down to "Configure Your Computer" (drakconf) and click on that to load the application. With the Classic menu I click on the menu button to make the menu pop up then I simply move the mouse until it highlights tools, and the Tools menu pops out, I then move the mouse until System tools is highlighted and system tools menu pops out then I move the mouse until "Configure Your Computer" is highlighted, then I click the mouse to launch the application. That's two mouse clicks and no scrolling. It even takes less time to actually describe than it does to describe doing the same thing with the Kickoff. The Classic menu is highly intuitive, and requires less work to get where you want to be. The Kick off menu is frustrating and slow, and requires too much extra work to achieve a result. I can even navigate the Classic menu with a single mouseclick, Mouse down to open the menu, and finally release the mouse to launch the application. To be fair, I have one new Linux (and therefore KDE) user who really loves the Kickoff menu, she likes it because she has more control of the mouse with it (she's 72), not because she considers it intuitive. |
| mark_oz Jul 01, 2008 3:17 AM EDT |
>The point is not how do I replace the Kickoff menu, the point is the Kickoff menu seems to intuitive only to the KDE devs, and you I suppose. To the rest of us, mere mortals, it's not. As for myself, personally, the Kickoff menu requires too many mouse actions to get anything done. For example to to open drakconf from the kickoff menu. I have to click on the Menu button, to get the menu to pop up, mouse over the applications tab (sometimes it loads the applications menu immediately sometimes it takes longer, in which case I click the mouse to load the applications menu) then I have to scroll down tools and click the mouse to get the Tools menu to load, then I have to click on System Tools to get the System Tools menu to load, then I have to scroll down to "Configure Your Computer" (drakconf) and click on that to load the application. Oh I agree. Wholeheartedly. Personally, I prefer Mint Menu. http://www.distro-review.com/review-linux-mint-5-elyssa (there was one KDE version of Linux Mint that was great). Or Tasty Menu http://www.notmart.org/tastymenu/index.html ... or, as I say, even the old style KDE 3 hierarchical menu. ... or even the new launch thing in Ubuntu MID http://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=ubuntu_mid_804&image=ub... ... or you could do something like what I did in KDE 3 ... I added an icon in kicker which started each of the main sub-level menus using the "add this menu" option of kicker. All of these possible approaches are better than the default kickoff menu in KDE 4. The point I am making is that the menu that you use is not fixed in stone, it is replaceable ... even the default KDE 4 build offers you at least one replacement, and Plasma itself is by far the easiest desktop to "build your own stuff" for. So bellyaching about the menu, even though it is admittedly poor, and talking about a "fork", is rather a case of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". Just set it up how you want ... not how the developers ship it. In very short order, "trendy" distributions (such as Mint or Sabayon) will start offering KDE 4.1 with a far better setup (as default) than is being offered by the KDE 4 developers. http://www.seopher.com/articles/review_of_linux_mint_bianca_... http://www.sabayonlinux.org/mod/screenshots/ When that happens, the more mainstream KDE distributions will also start offering better setups ... and the default (bad) KDE 4 setup we see now will fade into the background of history. There was a TV show once featuring a Jewish tailor, I believe the title was something like "never mind the quality, feel the width". KDE 4 is a bit like that ... don't bitch about the default setup (even though it is admittedly awful) ... but look rather at what you can achieve with the power KDE 4 brings you ... After all, Sabayon and Linux Mint KDE edition are both currently far more stylish than the default bland KDE 3 desktops are ... |
| tracyanne Jul 01, 2008 3:22 AM EDT |
Quoting:but look rather at what you can achieve with the power KDE 4 brings you ... As far as I can see, from the Beta of 4.1 I'm using, nothing particularly useful. I'm not just complaining about the Kick off menu, yes it's horrible. I'm not seeing anything like the claims made for KDE 4.0. |
| tuxchick Jul 01, 2008 7:09 AM EDT |
There is no such thing as an intuitive menu. People are used to the Classic menu- no intuition involved. There is nothing intuitive about computers, period- they're a completely abstract, artificial environment. All the KDE4 complaining is based on two things: it's different, and it's not ready for prime-time. SJVN went a little further than most folks on actually spending some time with KDE4 and poking around its different features, though I think he's premature in calling it an irredeemable pile of poo, or whatever words he used. |
| dinotrac Jul 01, 2008 7:33 AM EDT |
>though I think he's premature in calling it an irredeemable pile of poo If you distill what he's saying, I think his concern is less about irredeemability than the interest of the developers in redeeming it. |
| jezuch Jul 01, 2008 8:50 AM EDT |
Quoting:Complaining about Dolphin doesn't make sense, since Konqueror and Krusader are still there. That's not exactly true, because Konqueror and Dolphin use exactly the same widget for the list of files. So at least my pet peeve of file selection is not solved by Konqueror. |
| tuxchick Jul 01, 2008 10:05 AM EDT |
Good point dino, that sounds right. Still, all the carping strikes me as overmuch. It seems the KDE4 devs have a certain vision, and it's going to take time to implement and refine it. I know, change is horrifying and wrong, and we should never ever give anyone a chance. :P |
| tracyanne Jul 01, 2008 1:33 PM EDT |
Quoting:There is no such thing as an intuitive menu. People are used to the Classic menu- no intuition involved. There must be, some of these people haven't owned computers before. I have a copy of 4.1 Beta running on a VM on my laptop, I try to do things with it every day, I'm not not seeing any useful functionality, and I'm not seeing the really exciting things that the KDE devs talk about. For example, according to comments in aseigo's blog you can make a plasmoid, whatever in the hell that means, the giant icon things, full screen and fully transparent. So I locate what appears to be a tools option on the semi transparent bit that inconsistantly pops out one side or another (there's an icon for a spanner, that says tools to me), open the tools window, and there is almost no functionality to be had, no way to make this thing go full screen, no way to make in transparent, it just sits there taking up screen space, on all desktops (there appears to be no way to make it appear on one desktop only), like any other icon only considerably bigger, until you remove it . Then there's this Zoom In/Zoom Out that makes the desktop background smaller, gee that's useful. And I don't use Icons in KDE 3.5.x, so the concept of NO icons as is touted for KDE 4.x is not a new idea as far as I'm concerned. The task bar, you can add and remove icons from it getting them in the right place is difficult. You can actually replace the kickoff menu with the classic menu easily - there must have been such an outcry of contempt fot the kicikoff menu that the KDE devs made easy switching to the classic menu a priority. No Carla, it's not that it's new, I was really excited that there was going to be new ways of doing things, I've read the overblown claims made by the KDE devs, and then been slapped in the face by reality. My complaint is that 4.1 is not even close to ready for prime time. I was hoping, after all the rhetoric from the KDE devs, that the beta would have at least some usable functionality so that I could try out some new ideas for my desktop, but I'm sadly disappointed. You can't do anything useful. At best the KDE betas are Alpha. |
| tuxchick Jul 01, 2008 7:36 PM EDT |
Well tracyanne, I agree that it has a lot of rough edges. I just think the KDE4 bashing has gone way overboard. People are attacking it like it's communists coming to steal our precious bodily fluids. Whether it's alpha or beta is a bit of a nitpicky argument, I think- the point is it's not ready for prime-time, and nobody associated with KDE has yet claimed that it is. Quite the opposite, in fact. "Release early, release often" is how it's done with most FOSS projects, and hopefully users give useful feedback to the devs, instead of writing big scary click-generating articles about how awful it is and how it will never be any good. Time will tell if it's irredeemably sucky; it's way too early to write it off. |
| tracyanne Jul 01, 2008 8:05 PM EDT |
Quoting:hopefully users give useful feedback to the devs I'd like to. But I can't do anything to give feed back on. And in response to SJVN's blog, aseigo, and probably other devs as well - can't remember who else is a dev, did claim that you can do useful things with the beta, and indeed in his blog aseigo talked about the really exciting things he's doing, one of which was what I tried to duplicate. I thought that would be really useful, as it's similar to how I use the VM, and some other applications, locking them each to one of my 9 desktops, so having desktops kitted out in different ways, depending on what functions I'm performing on that desktop, seems like a neat extension to that way of doing things. |
| azerthoth Jul 02, 2008 7:24 AM EDT |
Wow, only using KDE casually, my main WM being Fluxbox most of the time, I am used to the features tracyanne just listed already being there. Not to start a WM/DE debate, each has something positive and negative to be pointed out, but I would have thought being able to command an application to open on a specific desktop each time it starts with whatever options (minimized, no border/wm decoration, etc) would have been a standard a long time since. |
| NoDough Jul 02, 2008 11:00 AM EDT |
Quoting:People are attacking it like it's communists coming to steal our precious bodily fluids.Oooh, I hate communists. I spit on them! Hey! Wait! Come back here with my saliva! |
| tracyanne Jul 02, 2008 12:53 PM EDT |
Quoting:but I would have thought being able to command an application to open on a specific desktop each time it starts with whatever options (minimized, no border/wm decoration, etc) would have been a standard a long time since it is. I was talking about extending that, as is claimed to be possible by the KDE devs. For example aseigo made the claim in his blog that it would be possible to create a different plasmoid thing, those giant icons, for each of my desktops, such that it covered the entire desktop, and was fully transperent, and each could, foe example be populated with other plasmoids, icons, that were specific to that desktop. I wanted to try that. It doesn't work. I'm wonder which year that will be included in the KDE 4 desktop. |
| azerthoth Jul 02, 2008 1:20 PM EDT |
Ah I see, I misunderstood/misread the comment. As I understand it now (if I actually do), yes that would be a terribly handy piece of functionality. Basicly drop an overlay onto the workspace and poof, task reconfigured desktop. Thinking about it though, writing a bash script to read current desktop configuration and stash it away and then reconfiguring it to a task specific configuration and then back again, is fairly straight forward. Heck, thinking about it, you could guify the whole process with multiple configurations right now with nothing more than zenity/kdialog with a save function and list function etc etc in KDE3.5 . The only thing I can see that would be a possible challenge would be saving the location of an icon on the desktop, as I have never had the need to store/recall that information. |
| hkwint Jul 02, 2008 3:13 PM EDT |
Quoting:At best the KDE betas are Alpha. However, nowhere in the world is there a definition of Alpha or Beta. That's what the KDE team took advantage of, and so did the Linux kernel devs. If they published their current Beta's as Alpha's (in the case of Linux: If they published their beta's as 2.7.x), you and SJVN wouldn't have tested it probably, which goes for a lot of other folks. In that case, there wouldn't be much feedback, in contrary to the situation now. So, that choice was made on purpose by the KDE team (and the Linux kernel devs). Please read the story at http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=73552950251341&mkt=nl-N... (Sorry, it's only in Mircosofts cache, Google blocks it, even from the internet archive). Quoting:There is no such thing as an intuitive menu. People are used to the Classic menu- no intuition involved. Uhm, okay, if new 'computer users' think it's easier to work with the KDE3 start menu than with the default KDE4 one, then the usability team did something wrong. |
| tracyanne Jul 02, 2008 6:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:If they published their current Beta's as Alpha's (in the case of Linux: If they published their beta's as 2.7.x), you and SJVN wouldn't have tested it probably Actually I would have. My expectations would have been lower. Mandriva release Alphas then Betas then Release Candidates. My expectations of each differ. I am usually, however, pleasantly surprised by the Mandriva Alphas. |
| tracyanne Jul 02, 2008 6:23 PM EDT |
Quoting:then the usability team did something wrong. I think they did. |
| hkwint Jul 03, 2008 2:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:Actually I would have. My expectations would have been lower. That's really great. You are the kind of person the KDE-team would have needed. However, they were very afraid nobody would test those Alpha's and therefore they dubbed them Beta's. That could mean trouble in the future, because the expectations oft their future Beta's will be even lower I guess. |
| krisum Jul 03, 2008 2:45 PM EDT |
Quoting: That's really great. You are the kind of person the KDE-team would have needed. However, they were very afraid nobody would test those Alpha's and therefore they dubbed them Beta's. That could mean trouble in the future, because the expectations oft their future Beta's will be even lower I guess.Unfortunately this is a poor tactic. It seems to have had the worse effect of loss of (substantial number of) user's confidence in KDE development process and direction. |
| tuxchick Jul 03, 2008 3:10 PM EDT |
So let's string up those KDE devs, since they ruined so many lives.
Honest to gosh, I haven't seen this kind of over-reaction in I don't know how long. Let's count all the evil things they did: 1. Port everything over from Qt3 to Qt4 2. Perform a complete overhaul of a desktop environment that contains hundreds of applications 3. Try out some new design concepts, while preserving the option for users to do things the old way 4. Maintain the old stable 3.5 series for folks who don't want the new one yet Yep, that's a capital offense. |
| tracyanne Jul 03, 2008 6:42 PM EDT |
Quoting:1. Port everything over from Qt3 to Qt4 I don't have a problem with that, in fact I was quite excited when I read about their intentions to do so. Quoting:2. Perform a complete overhaul of a desktop environment that contains hundreds of applications I don't have a problem with that, their stated intentions seemed quite exciting, when originally published. Quoting:3. Try out some new design concepts, while preserving the option for users to do things the old way Except that neither works as claimed, even in the 4.1 Beta, where, so it is claimed by various KDE devs, that one can already do a lot of really exciting things... one cannot. At the very least that is disappointing. Quoting:4. Maintain the old stable 3.5 series for folks who don't want the new one yet That is expected. Why would anyone complain about that? |
| tuxchick Jul 03, 2008 7:02 PM EDT |
tracyanne, my point is not that users are complaining about things not working, or being disappointed- they're acting like it's a hanging offense. The venom is unbelievable. I'm almost ready to believe what a poster said in another forum, that it's an organized astroturf campaign to make Linux community look bad. |
| dinotrac Jul 03, 2008 7:24 PM EDT |
> The venom is unbelievable. The venom is utterly believable. Have you browsed around and seen the reactions of assorted KDE developers? If I were to summarize, it would seem to be "How DARE YOU not be thrilled with our little God's Gift to Computing." I realize we should be grateful that unpaid volunteers (which, btw, does not describe all of the KDE developers) would do anything for our benefit, but... there is such a thing as reciprocal obligation. When you take something on good that is relied on by hundreds of thousands -- maybe millions -- of people, you assume a certain responsibility to treat your task as more than just a "neato project". I don't see that sense of responsibility in many of the comments I've seen from developers, something which I'm sure fuels many a squirt of venom. |
| azerthoth Jul 03, 2008 7:29 PM EDT |
We are our own worst enemies with Microsoft coming in a not even close second place. Not that it's an unprecedented event, when MS first took off and claimed its place as the preeminent OS the Unix wars were going on and tearing each other up, so no one noticed the new player until it was to late. So now as we move into a position where we can start making a credible threat to every aspect of MS's business, we show our roots and turn upon each other once again. Toss in a few Type A personalities, a handful of grade A morons, a seasoning of vocal users and opinionated devs, stir well, and there you are. A lot of scrambled eggs just shy of an omelet. |
| tuxchick Jul 03, 2008 9:26 PM EDT |
So dino, if I understand what you are saying, it could be paraphrased as a "poopyhead smackdown."Quoting: Toss in a few Type A personalities, a handful of grade A morons, a seasoning of vocal users and opinionated devs, stir well, and there you are.azerthoth, it sure looks that way. |
| gus3 Jul 03, 2008 9:32 PM EDT |
Concur w/ dinotrac. As evidence, I offer the following two links (language warning, and NSFW!): http://troy-at-kde.livejournal.com/17753.html http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3535 In fairness, I should quote from the latter: Quoting:When I say we don't need users, I am talking by definition about people who do not contribute to KDE: they do not report bugs, they do not write documentation, they do not translate, they do not promote...they simply use our software.Even a bug report is a contribution. Be a contributor. |
| dinotrac Jul 04, 2008 3:12 AM EDT |
Fine - Think what you will. In most of life, when people screw up, those who rely on their product get a little testy, to say the least. The KDE devs aren't being unhygienic (so far as I knows) and infecting us with hepatitis or e coli or salmonella. They're not leaving sponges or surgical implements in our bodies. They're not making defective brakes or even tainted dog food. All right, then. I guess everything is roses and apple dumplings and only the worst kind of gloomy gus could fail to see that. |
| tracyanne Jul 04, 2008 4:25 AM EDT |
I've just downloaded KDE 4 Beta 2, I'm running it on my virtual machine right now. You still can't do anything useful with the new desktop stuff. There is still no way of changing the configuration of these damned widgets (the giant icon things the KDE devs call plasmoids), in fact the functionality, or lack thereof is exactly the same as Beta 1. In fact the only functionality I can find is that which is available on KDE3 - all the things you can do to windows on KDE 4 are the same things you can do on KDE3. With the exception of the Giant Icons (the plasmoids), and the fact that you can make the desktop background image take up less of the desktop, and the fact that the taks bar is a fixed size, and can't be hidden, the KDE 4 desktop is pretty much the same as the KDE3 desktop. So what should I report as a bug report? |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 04, 2008 6:36 AM EDT |
Bug reports: (start with things that don't work) I hit this [button || icon || menu item || ...] (be specific so they can reproduce the problem, i.e. include all the steps) I expected this: ... I got this: ... [for example: "nothing happened", "locked", etc.] Give a fairly complete description of the hardware of your test machine. Really important: the OS, version, and in your case what it sits on. The virtual machine software details could be critical, if a process is failing that the developers have seen work under other conditions that could be the key to a possible solution. Post it where the KDE developers expect flaw reports. Don't become immediately offended if you see follow ups saying it was solved or "taken care of". That happened to me when I reported a flaw in the Safari 2.0.x browser on the webkit list. I knew it was reproducible, and upon questioning they really meant it was discovered previously and in the new version already corrected. When I was at most a casual tester of Firefox (pre-release 2.0) I would mention problems I knew most were not encountering and to my surprise saw quick fixes. I was too busy to test 3.0, but I began running from Alpha 1 missing only one that slipped by. I ended at beta 2, because my OS is too old to run the newer betas. Work with the KDE people and they may skew it towards your preferences. |
| tuxchick Jul 04, 2008 9:24 AM EDT |
Good advice, TxtEdMacs. Bug reports are filed here: http://bugs.kde.org/ Yes you have to register. Just like for virtually all bug trackers. |
| tracyanne Jul 04, 2008 1:48 PM EDT |
But it works, it just doesn't have any of the functionality I was lead to believe would be there. So what do I file as a Bug report? |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 04, 2008 2:19 PM EDT |
Simple, fill in the function, cite the source that made you expect it and ask why it was not implemented. I expected this (functionality) I got (not the functionality expected) |
| tracyanne Jul 04, 2008 2:21 PM EDT |
I'll give it a go. |
| helios Jul 04, 2008 3:37 PM EDT |
I'm not sure I recognize the guy's name but one of the KDE devs quit. I am assuming it was over this bloodbath but then I've made some fairly silly assumptions lately. Oh...and far be it from me to ever take a thread off topic... Talking about the kickedbutt menu...oh, sorry; the kickoff menu, it reminds me of a reaction I got from a seasoned KDE user not too long ago. Every time I set up a new kde environment, I set two panels. One regular panel at bottom and one set to "tiny" at top. I build a set of system trays for the one on top, grouping the apps I use most into clusters. I also keep my dictionary field up there as well. Now on the bottom, and usually down close to the clock, I right click the panel, click "add applet" and put a "run command" field in there. It's pretty slick. You can type the app name, hit enter and you don't touch the menu. You can type "gg:remember no space between the colon" and hit enter. It opens a google tab with your search results. Want to search google images? Type ggi:picture of you not putting any space betwen the colon". It functions too as an alt-f2 button basically but I used to be able to actually get it to function as a terminal. I would type in something like man amarok and it opens a terminal window with that already working. What's extra nice is that it remembers your previous commands in a dropdown so if you are using say, Gimp several times a day and don't have an icon set up for it, you can just execute it from a previous use in the run command. I use yakuake now so I don't open too many terminals. For all the drama and controversy in the kde dev community now, they've sure done some nice work for us. Agreed...it was not correctly released (kde4) but you watch...they'll get it straightened out and kde4 will be better for the experience, and thusly so will we. I just hope too many egos and feelings are not terminally damaged in the process. h |
| jdixon Jul 04, 2008 3:47 PM EDT |
> but you watch...they'll get it straightened out and kde4 will be better for the experience, I expect you're correct. I'm just not sure how long that's going to take. From the current status, I'd guess KDE 4.3 or 4.4. Fortunately, I mostly use XFCE, so it doesn't really affect me. |
| tracyanne Jul 05, 2008 1:49 AM EDT |
Ok so I've put in a report that pretty much says what I've been saying. We'll see what sort of response I get. |
| thenixedreport Jul 05, 2008 10:30 PM EDT |
I also posted a response of my own concerning a backlash against one of the developers of KDE for voicing their frustration. It's like a person can't let off some steam and let others know how they feel. Then the "ungratefuls" come out in droves to mow 'em down. Yeah boys and girls.... real mature there (note: the comment does not include the members of this forum). |
| tracyanne Jul 06, 2008 12:26 AM EDT |
Ok I have an answer to one of my questions: http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2007/07/desktop-zooming.html http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Plasma/FAQ#What_is_the_Zoom... I don't buy the use cases, as I see no good use for icons on my desktop, be they traditional icons or the new giant plasmoid icons. But that is the answer to my question. |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 06, 2008 7:37 AM EDT |
Tracy, Everyone hates KDE 4.x ... [url=http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3757241/KDE 4.1 Beta 2: Two Steps Forward, One Step Back.htm]http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3757241/KD...[/url] Or at least he [says] so. Have to stop here, spilled coffee on the keyboard. Shutting down and dying out. Over and out. [edit in the brackets] |
| tracyanne Jul 06, 2008 1:21 PM EDT |
Byfield is wrong, at least where this user is concerned, It appears that I may have to wait until at least 4.2, as I understand a reply I received ftom Aaron Seigo, before I see any of the exciting functionality I've been looking forward to. |
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