Only one problem with this
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| bigg Apr 27, 2008 7:44 PM EDT |
It gives the impression that the average user could do that in Windows. Sorry, no way, no how my wife or mother or brothers could do most of those tasks in Windows either. The only way is if someone had showed them how to do it earlier. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but there's no such thing as a magic OS that doesn't require you to learn, unless I missed the one that controls your brain. Kids go to school and they get addicted early on to using Windows. While moderately interesting, I'm not sure we learn anything from this experiment, beyond the not surprising fact that different OSes are in fact different. We should try to make Linux user friendly, but I don't see a lot of experiments with cars along the lines of, "Can a bicycle user who has never previously used a car drive a Toyota from Ohio to Texas without problems?" and then when they have trouble getting out of the parking lot, that means Toyotas are a failure. If an OS is so simple that it can be used without any prior knowledge, it's too simple for me. |
| cabreh Apr 27, 2008 11:05 PM EDT |
Not to mention this "bright one" author installs an OS for what seems to be a semi-illiterate computer user (in the sense of computer knowledge) and doesn't even set it up prpoerly for her. If I had done this when I moved my wife to Linux I'd be sleeping on the couch or something. It seems to me to be an article written based on the presumption of failure. |
| zenarcher Apr 28, 2008 2:09 AM EDT |
I agree with cabreh. I know the "wife factor," very well. My wife loves her computer, but she's a hair stylist and could care less about the technical end of computers. She doesn't even want to know. All she knows is that she wants it to "just work," and when it doesn't, I get a sticky note saying "fix it." I'm lucky if I get a description of the problem. Like most other "average users," she had become familiar enough with Windows to do what she wanted to do. Then, I came along and installed Linux. She wasn't real happy just dealing with different names for applications which performed similar tasks. But, with a bit of time and explanations, she became familiar with that aspect. The last thing in the world I would do would be to leave it to her to configure a new Linux installation. I set it up, configure it and she's good to go. That's not one bit different than I did for her with Windows. She did not have a clue with Windows about doing routine tasks, such as defragging the hard drive, updating anti-virus definitions or anything else. With Linux...she's happy, after learning a bit about names of applications and I'm happier not doing all the maintenance tasks I had to do with Windows, which she knew nothing about. But, there is a learning curve, with any change. |
| helios Apr 28, 2008 3:42 AM EDT |
To take this a step further, we conducted an unscientific experiment something like this but it was short, sweet, and indicative of just where the problems like this originate (BKAC). As we began talking to users and introducing them to Linux, we picked 10 people over the course of 2 weeks to do this. We told them how cool Linux was, gave them a visual reference via a tricked out laptop and then VERBALLY instructed them on how to boot and use a Live CD. Followups showed us that 4 out of ten never got the disk to boot. Why? When they put the disk into the tray, they did not reboot the computer as instructed but went straight to My Computer, found the CD in the Drive, Opened that UserSpace then clicked icons until nothing happened. They pronounced Linux as Teh Suk and threw the disk in a drawer or the circular file. Again...Gates isn't a genius for cobbling together an operating system. His brilliance is in recognizing that he only had to be a monopoly long enough to gain MindShare, not market share. He fully understood that the fines levied against him would be dwarfed by the profits made. Still though, this author does have some valid observations on the UserSpace and how it can be inproved. I am hoping against hope that someone takes heed here. This is destined to be /.'ed if it hasn't already been. h |
| cabreh Apr 28, 2008 5:41 AM EDT |
I too think it would be great if after the install everything the user wanted was available. But then we run into the non-free items. Flash for instance. If you really want the flash sites to work you have to use the non-free flash (hopefully this will change before long). The moment any particular distribution does this by default they will be torn apart by the people who wont use non-free software even if it kills them (that's supposed to be humor not flames). So, how do you get it to work for "everyone"? Microsoft doesn't have that issue and can ship with whatever they want. As well as have it pre-installed on the computer before the user sees it. Two very helpful items for them. |
| tracyanne Apr 28, 2008 1:28 PM EDT |
Quoting:). The moment any particular distribution does this by default they will be torn apart by the people who wont use non-free software even if it kills them Mandriva do it. |
| rijelkentaurus Apr 28, 2008 1:33 PM EDT |
Quoting: Microsoft doesn't have that issue and can ship with whatever they want. To be fair, that's not because of what MS ships, they only ship the OS, the OEMs add that onto the PCs that they sell in order to get third-party kickbacks. Do a fresh install of a Windows OS and you can't really do crap with it. Add the other programs, however, and crap becomes frighteningly easy..... |
| azerthoth Apr 28, 2008 2:44 PM EDT |
OEMs == computer ex-lax? |
| rijelkentaurus Apr 28, 2008 3:23 PM EDT |
And Linux==computer Pepto! |
| cabreh Apr 28, 2008 10:12 PM EDT |
@tracyanne
>Mandriva do it. I guess some distribution communities don't mind. But did you see all the noise just because Ubuntu wanted to include proprietary video drivers to make life easy for users? Maybe it's because Ubuntu is Debian based the therefore a lot of people believe they need to be true to the Debian philosophy? I don't know. I just know a lot of people were upset. I personally want Linux to work for me and use the hardware I have fully. So, I have Nvidia and ATI proprietary drivers installed. Others wont do that and I respect their choice. As long as I can have my choice too. @rijelkentaurus >To be fair, that's not because of what MS ships, they only ship the OS, the OEMs add that onto the PCs that they sell in order to get third-party kickbacks I agree to a point. But, you might be hard pressed to find a name brand OEM that doesn't also include some form of Microsoft Office with their computer. That is financed by Microsoft to keep market share. The other applications like flash and such would be either installed by the OEM or a simple click install. I know most distributions now make it this easy as well. Some don't. And Apple doesn't make it real easy for all distributions to install it from their site. I guess we do have a way to go yet. |
| tracyanne Apr 28, 2008 11:13 PM EDT |
@ cabreh Mandriva have Mandriva Free, which is FOSS only, like gUbuntu. Mandriva One which is a Live CD version complete with Free beer Proprietary applications like Flash (which they have the proprietors permission to include), Mandriva One is Free as in Free Beer. Powerpack which is a Commercial version which contains everything that Mandriva can release, including Server and Development Tools and those Proprietary softwares they have permission to include. Mandriva don't include anything that requires they pay licensing fees for. Links to PLF are well documented, so one can easily obtain FOSS versions of CODECS for Win32 etc, and they now also include an installer for the Fluendo Codecs for Win32 etc. |
| jacog Apr 29, 2008 12:07 AM EDT |
Sometimes it's tough being shackled by freedom. And I am running Mandriva now also. Yay me. (Well, it worked great for two days - I installed it fresh on Sunday, and now it fails on bootup... erm... ok, must be something stupid I did, yup - hope so. ) Anyhoo, for some people freedom and choice means having no freedom or choice. I am free to choose whether I want to use open of proprietary software. I am free to boot into Windows - I have a choice. Freedom is not being glared at judgementally every time I choose to use a closed product. That's leaning towards tyranny. |
| rijelkentaurus Apr 29, 2008 3:17 AM EDT |
Quoting: But did you see all the noise just because Ubuntu wanted to include proprietary video drivers to make life easy for users? You are only half correct. Ubuntu got in hot water for wanting to enable those drivers by default. With Mandriva (and PCLOS) you are asked if you want to include the non-free drivers (something like "There is a proprietary driver available. Do you want to use it?"). Including them or an option for them would have caused little problem, but they were wanting to take the choice away. |
| bigg Apr 29, 2008 4:01 AM EDT |
> I personally want Linux to work for me and use the hardware I have fully. > Ubuntu got in hot water for wanting to enable those drivers by default. That's right, and I think that the largest component of it was Mark Shuttleworth's attitude that he was going to do things his way and didn't care what anyone else thought. At least for the latest releases of Mandriva you don't always get a choice about using the proprietary nvidia drivers. If you use One you get the proprietary driver in all cases. The problem is that on one of my machines the proprietary driver simply doesn't work. On another machine, with a TV tuner card, the TV picture jumps and flickers and is unacceptable. I've never had trouble with the vesa driver. It's not religion in my case. Using free drivers is the way to go because you can fix problems when they happen. The vesa and nv drivers have never failed me. If someone wants additional functionality, that is very easy to enable with a few clicks of the mouse in recent versions of Ubuntu. |
| rijelkentaurus Apr 29, 2008 4:55 AM EDT |
Quoting: At least for the latest releases of Mandriva you don't always get a choice about using the proprietary nvidia drivers. If you use One you get the proprietary driver in all cases. Is that the current One? The 2008.1 PowerPack gave me the choice, I chose to use the Nvidia drivers instead of nv. I agree about nv and vesa...you know you're getting X up and running if you use those, and you can enable the proprietary drivers later. It's very handy. |
| jdixon Apr 29, 2008 6:08 AM EDT |
> But, you might be hard pressed to find a name brand OEM that doesn't also include some form of Microsoft Office with their computer. If you consider Microsoft Works to equivalent to Microsoft Office. Otherwise it's usually a $150 or so option. |
| techiem2 Apr 29, 2008 8:48 AM EDT |
An these days they often just include the trial version of Office 2007 to get you locked in.... |
| number6x Apr 29, 2008 9:30 AM EDT |
I don't think articles like these have the success in promoting fear that they used to. You can search you-tube for 'Ubuntu install' and find examples of experienced and inexperienced users installing the distro. The cross section of people using Linux day in and day out has shifted to include more casual and mainstream users. Ubuntu has played a part in this as have other 'user friendly' distros like Mandriva, and PCLOS. Live cd's have had a major impact allowing people with some interest to try without commitment. The trend is obvious that Linux is no longer the domain of geeks alone. The credit for that goes to the creators of these distros as well as the many users who just try. 5 years ago this guy wouldn't have been using his girlfriend as a test subject in a Linux install and use test. And for every FUD article like this one there are 3 or 4 'My Grandma uses Linux' articles. This tide has turned. |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 29, 2008 10:25 AM EDT |
Telling somebody to go into the BIOS and change their boot sequence is a tall order. Couple that with not only the concept of running a live CD, but also creating a bootable CD from an ISO on a system (Windows) that is purposly inhospitable to just such an activity ... I don't know quite how to make it easier, and I don't know exactly what the Wubi utility does, but a dependable installer that works from within Windows -- and without burning a CD -- is what is needed to take Linux (or any alternative OS) the extra mile. That and educating the other 99.9999 percent in why they might want Linux instead of Windows. And ... then there's the iPod problem. (Once I stop using my iPod as a backup drive, I will try Banshee, Amarok or gtkpod, and I'll know more.) |
| helios Apr 30, 2008 8:50 AM EDT |
I've only ran into a few people that didn't understand how to do the bios switch but the ones I have encountered considered it a major surgical procedure. Then again, we have those technically-challenged people all over. I am working with a woman who after two weeks of tutoring, cannot get the left click/right click thing down. I brought it down to the simplest of terms. Right click asks or gives choices, left chick chooses and executes those choices. sheesh. And Amarok? It is a superb replacement for itunes. GTKpod is also excellent, but Amarok is more of a one stop shopping experience. I don't "do" music but rarely anymore, but when I do, Amarok is my weapon of choice when I do need an ipod tule. Atunes is my all-round player for other applications. |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 30, 2008 9:37 AM EDT |
I need a two-button mouse for the Mac ... I'm tired of the Option key ... |
| Sander_Marechal May 05, 2008 12:50 PM EDT |
Quoting:Followups showed us that 4 out of ten never got the disk to boot. Why? When they put the disk into the tray, they did not reboot the computer as instructed but went straight to My Computer, found the CD in the Drive, Opened that UserSpace then clicked icons until nothing happened. They pronounced Linux as Teh Suk and threw the disk in a drawer or the circular file. Use a better Live CD (different distro). Most Live CD's are for Linux folk, not Windows folk. You're pitching CDs to Windows folk so use a Live CD that has Windows autorun enabled. They insert the CD and some kind of application is started that tells the user what to do next. Quoting:Telling somebody to go into the BIOS and change their boot sequence is a tall order. Couple that with not only the concept of running a live CD, but also creating a bootable CD from an ISO on a system (Windows) that is purposly inhospitable to just such an activity ... Actually, thanks to the wonderful world of Windows software piracy, there are many people out there who know how to burn ISO images. Plus, many computers come configured with things like Nero instead of the built-in Windows burner and they understand ISO images as well. Changing the boot order is a far taller order. Isn't there some BIOS stuff that we can use to tell the computer to reboot from CD? We wouldn't even need to change the boot order. Better even that we do not (don't mess with the users settings). It would be nice to feed Windows a Linux CD, some app starts up from autorun that says "Hi, I'm Linux. To read more about me, click >herehere |
| Scott_Ruecker May 05, 2008 1:22 PM EDT |
Hey!, look who's back from vacation.. Are you alive and well Sander? |
| Sander_Marechal May 05, 2008 2:48 PM EDT |
Yes, soft-of :-) Greece was great but I had a cold when I flew back. I couldn't clear my ears during landing and had a lot of pain in my sinuses (which I could clear, eventually). My ears still haven't cleared. Doc says it can take over a week :-( Other than that, I had a blast :-) |
| rijelkentaurus May 05, 2008 5:03 PM EDT |
Quoting: Changing the boot order is a far taller order. At the splash screen of a Dell, hit F12 to bring up the boot source selection prompt, then choose CD...it won't matter how the BIOS is set. Most other brands have a similar setup, you just have to know what it is. We sell Dells. |
| Sander_Marechal May 05, 2008 9:05 PM EDT |
That works for Dells. What we'd need is a reliable way to do that on most (if not all) computers. Programmatically, from inside a Windows application. |
| gus3 May 05, 2008 10:01 PM EDT |
@Sander: Would you really want to trust a Windows application to modify your BIOS settings? Or, for that matter, an application on any platform? One wrong guess at your hardware and BIOS revision level, and your system is toast. I'd enjoy looking at a program to make a best guess at what the current BIOS settings are, but changing them would be strictly off-limits to all but myself, via the BIOS menu. |
| Sander_Marechal May 05, 2008 10:09 PM EDT |
I agree. That's what I said above in my longer post: Don't change the user's settings. But it would be nice if there was a way to tell the computer to reboot from a certain device without changing the boot order in the BIOS. That's what I meant. |
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