Never one to start any trouble...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| helios Apr 20, 2008 6:37 PM EDT |
You know, I sat patiently through that presentation of high-powered movers and shakers, waiting for the words I needed to hear. They never came, so I took the mic and I made them spill out onto the audience. I said something to the affect that you can watch 5 Microsoft commercials in 30 minutes if you surf the cable channels but you could spend 30 days doing the same thing and never hear anything about Linux. I stated that they were users of the desktop, and with their deep pockets, I wondered when they were going to help finance a Linux awareness advertising campaign on the TV and Radio Airwaves. After all the high-powered mumbo-jumbo from Ibm and HP, it came down to something like: "We offer solutions not operating systems." I know for a fact that there was a Microsoft Employee in the audience because I was sitting three seats down from him and Tom King had been arranging an interview with him. That's just the kind of answer I expect from IBM and HP when there's an MS exec in the audience. Sure they dump tons of money into R&D, but I don't care about what they profit from. I care about people trapped in a Microsoft world breaking free. Apparently, the "corporate interest" isn't interested in freedom. But in the long run, I think we all know that anyway. Now it has been verbalized on record. h |
| tracyanne Apr 20, 2008 7:04 PM EDT |
Thanks Ken, that is the only thing I really wanted to know. Now I know there will be no help from the corporate world. We are on our own to develop and prove the market, at which time the corporates will suddenly become interested. |
| dumper4311 Apr 20, 2008 10:04 PM EDT |
Come on you guys, lets get a little perspective here. "Corporate interest" consists of one thing by it's very definition - profit. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as they behave in an ethical way. Quite frankly, it would be ridiculous to expect any for-profit company to ignore their shareholders demands and their own bottom line to help the world break free. As was mentioned, they do in fact dump tons of money into R&D. That's not enough? Then start your own business, profit based or non-profit, and push whatever agenda you care to. Helios, I know you work toward this end, and I have and will continue to support such projects as Komputers4Kids wholeheartedly. But bashing interests that benefit us - directly or otherwise - is bad for the "community" that you yourself have so often criticized as being fragmented, ineffectual, and self absorbed. As soon as the corporate interests can find a profitable model for promoting "freedom", rest assured they'll jump all over it. The simple fact is that they have the same problem we have - inertia. When I get someone using Linux, it's from word of mouth, one at a time. When people get tired enough of crapware, or infections, or not having control over their data, then they move. Until users reach such a point, there's a lot of comfort in the devil you know. You already know the difficulty of approaching a mass market with such a radical shift. All the marketing money in the world is worth nothing if you can't support the market you create. It's much easier for activists to provide this one on one support, and corporations are slow to change. When they get it figured out, and when there's enough of a market to make it profitable (enough people who WANT to change), then you'll see the support you feel we so richly deserve. Yes, I recognize the chicken-or-the-egg dilemma outlined in the above paragraph. Corporate interests simply haven't seen enough of a desktop market to push the marketing aspect . . . yet. That is changing with the help of the ultra-cheap PCs and laptops that have become popular recently. MS has recognized this as well, and is slowly working into this same market (as best they can). But this means we're left with our original obstacle - inertia. |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 20, 2008 10:18 PM EDT |
Quoting:That's not enough? Then start your own business, profit based or non-profit, and push whatever agenda you care to. Helios Funny that. It's exactly what he did :-) http://www.fixedbylinux.com |
| dumper4311 Apr 20, 2008 11:01 PM EDT |
@SM:
Please don't stop reading my comments there, and assume that's the point. I'm well acquainted with helios' efforts, and regard him as a hero in the Linux community. Eventually, I'd like to see IBM, HP or other buy out fixedbylinux so helios can retire a very well to do activist - or at least copy the work he's doing and further promote Linux use. When they figure out how to do that profitably, then we'll all see movement. I just don't think it's reasonable to bash or snub (mostly) ethical organizations that do help us - even if it's not in every way we feel we deserve to be helped. It makes them less interested in supporting (or interacting with) the "community" in the future. |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 21, 2008 2:24 AM EDT |
Quoting:Please don't stop reading my comments there, and assume that's the point. I did read the rest of you comment. I agree with your point (see a couple post of mine in previous threads about this subject). I just thought that in light of the rather rash comment you made towards Ken was worth pointing out that he in fact did start his own business. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 21, 2008 8:16 AM EDT |
Too much focus is placed upon paying back MS for their myriad of dirty dealings and being under handed, lying cheats. All by playing the same game by ethical standards. In the end, this is no more than mimicking an outfit that literally has money to burn. Advertising does not change minds, it just preserves the brand's presence. Forget the payback and righteousness, the reality is change is happening. At the low end, MS is being forced into the defensive, preserving an OS that is at odds with their current goals, i.e. to push Vista everywhere. They have met their user resistance there too. But neither option is going to be to MS's advantage. With Eee PC, buyers will finally see that the Windows is no longer the cost "free" of option. They get less of a solid state drive, by taking XP. Moreover, what happens when the buyers find that the XP is the Home edition, not the Pro that was expected? [I do not know for certain, but this Home edition may even be a more limited version, than the erstwhile Home available on more fully endowed PCs.] Next, against their wishes, MS had to extend the life of XP on OEM offerings another two years on current (Vista capable) hardware. This is simply not the route they wanted to take, it is strictly defensive and perhaps a gross error if again it is limited to only the Home edition. Their message is now mixed, and despite the cash flow their marketing is being thrown off balance. If you really want to affect this battle, forget the mass advertising. Cultivate the few you can support individually that want to try Linux and be there for support (without complaint) until they can fly on their own. Afterwards they take up the role as new mentors. Be selective, take on no more than you can handle without moaning. Also be agnostic on distribution. Or simply say at the onset, I can support you well on this distribution, but you have to ask others for when specific distribution questions arise. When the combination of Linux and the Mac reach 20%, it will be a new world. MS will never be the same. If your goal is wiping out MS, get a new hobby or start a religious sect for the satisfaction you are seeking. This is a technical issue where the former does not play well with rational argument. The issue is choice. That is, individuals are allowed to make the wrong choice. If Linux is to succeed (or different free OS), we need less posturing and become more helpful to those that really are open to change. I have seen too often complaints about those new users being dense or lazy. If true, be more selective of those you chose to aid, but do not abuse those that show genuine interest. The latter is pretense that will make certain the voiced goal will be no more than empty words, forever. |
| Scott_Ruecker Apr 21, 2008 8:41 AM EDT |
Quoting:f you really want to affect this battle, forget the mass advertising. Cultivate the few you can support individually that want to try Linux and be there for support (without complaint) until they can fly on their own. Afterwards they take up the role as new mentors. Be selective, take on no more than you can handle without moaning. Also be agnostic on distribution. Or simply say at the onset, I can support you well on this distribution, but you have to ask others for when specific distribution questions arise. Great advice that I have already been taking for some time now. I have several people I have switched over to Linux and like you said, I am providing support, without complaint, until they can fly on their own. A couple have already taken off. There is much satisfaction to be had in watching people you have exposed to Open Source software start their own journeys. |
| dumper4311 Apr 21, 2008 8:45 AM EDT |
@Sander:
I can see where the confusion came from; I should have been more specific, as I was addressing a point made in Ken's original post, not Ken himself. Note the period after "whatever agenda you care to." The next sentence, specifically directed to helios, was one of praise and support for his efforts. As for the comment being rash - isn't this exactly the same type of argument that the more fervently dedicated FOSS supporters are always making to those who find a flaw in their pet projects? "The code's free, make the changes you want yourself, or hire someone to do it, but don't whine about something you're not paying for." It seems to me that if that type of argument is to have any validity at all, it must work equally well in both directions. The "community" should be held to the same standards it demands of anyone else. Helios' actions are quantifiable evidence that this is plausible, and should be modeled and promoted where possible. The point of my rash comment was that we - as a community - have to be careful not to project ourselves as demanding anything we haven't earned or created for ourselves. An atmosphere of entitlement would make us no better than MS. If the code is truly free, we need to accept that it can be used in ways we don't always agree with. Otherwise it's just another license agreement, with a different set of restrictions on usage - which would kind of defeat the point of "freedom". |
| helios Apr 21, 2008 10:15 AM EDT |
With Eee PC, buyers will finally see that the Windows is no longer the cost "free" of option. f you really want to affect this battle, forget the mass advertising. Cultivate the few you can support individually that want to try Linux and be there for support (without complaint) until they can fly on their own. No. You are not taking into consideration the "Linux Dilemma". It was exhibited on a grand scale during the major merchandise return of the Linux PC's at Walmart. People had NO idea what "this crap" is on their computers. People need to "hear and see" Linux first...there needs to be product recognition. Then it's "oh...THIS is Linux" wnen they see is as oppossed to "what is this crap." I've seen it over and over and over in the past three years. Why do you think I push the marketing so hard. I see the need every day. Without market recognition, the moms and dads of the world are still going to wonder what "this crap" is on their computers. We've got a long way to go within our own community. Word of mouth has gotten us what...? a 4-5 percent market share? Hell by the time my 15 year old finishes college, we should be up to a screaming 13-15 percent. I personally built and installed 116 computers for disadvantaged kids last year. I still take calls from them and their parents from time to time, so yes, they will need help...but you have to give people some credit for solving their own problems. I've increased my faith in people by the problems they've been able to solve on their own. But 4-5 percent market share for all the work we've done to this point? If you are happy with that, who am I to judge. |
| tuxchick Apr 21, 2008 10:22 AM EDT |
Quoting: "We offer solutions not operating systems." Nice bit of double-talk there. Musn't offend the delicate Redmond sensibilities. What do these "solutions" run on- non-operating systems? |
| techiem2 Apr 21, 2008 10:26 AM EDT |
lol@TC
I suppose you could call windows a non-operating system..... @Helios Do you have a small button/logo/whatever that we could stick on our web sites to link to the Lindependence day page? And what would be the proper place to link to? |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 21, 2008 10:33 AM EDT |
The Asus Eee, Everex Cloudbook, HP Mini-Note, Shuttle KPC, even the poorly marketed Dell desktops and laptops -- all should do worlds of good for Linux. I'm all about the low end (insert joke here). And what's better for the low end than all the free software you can eat (without resorting to thievery ... which is what Windows and Mac users do in a habitual way)? When Dell says "Ubuntu," all of us geeks know what they're talking about, but Dell, HP, Asus and others need to educate potential users about the idea of a DISTRIBUTION, with many thousands of free, vetted packages at their fingertips. It's value you can't get with Windows. And for most of the users, most of the time, it's a better deal. You think that a rush to Linux on the low end of the computing business won't get Apple a little worried? They don't want the low-end desktop business (nor the mid-range ...) but when their iPod customers start getting mad about iTunes (necessary but plenty evil, I think) not running, maybe they'll port it over ... eh, probably not. But people like Helios educating whoever will listen about the freedom vs. what-we-have-now argument -- that's worth a whole hell of a lot. Unfortunately, most people don't know that there's an alternative to the Windows/Mac proprietary world and that being nickel and dimed for things like virus protection (and needed upgrades to software they've already overpaid for) is just plain wrong. There was a time not too long ago when I had no idea what the "modern" Linux world was all about. Sure, I had used Unix in college many years earlier, and I knew that Linux existed, but the whole idea of a full distribution with all the free software you need? I had no idea. Once I burned Knoppix, and Puppy, then Ubuntu, Debian and a bunch of others, a whole new world opened up. Before that, I'd never heard of an ISO, a bootable CD, or any of the arcana that one needs to deal with before they get going with this stuff ... Even Ubuntu isn't doing it right -- they need to market what Ubuntu (or any Linux distro, for that matter) can do, not just its name and its community. |
| helios Apr 21, 2008 11:07 AM EDT |
techiem2 I will have one designed tonight OR...we can just go with the logo on http://www.fixedbylinux.com It's simple but catches the eye. Just the red and blue LINdependence 2008 text. If we have any one graphically talented as opposed to my graphically challenged self, I'm pretty easily impressed. h |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 24, 2008 2:23 PM EDT |
This is part of the assertion I made when I advised against grandiose plans: Their [MS's] message is now mixed, and despite the cash flow their marketing is being thrown off balance. Actually the picture for MS may be even worse. Now the quarterly figures are out, MS once again beat expectations (drained another hidden project?), but look at the places where they are losing: Microsoft said revenue in its client division, which includes its Windows operating system software, fell to $4 billion from $5.28 billion in the quarter. Microsoft's other core unit, the business division that includes its Office software suite, also saw revenue fall in the quarter, to $4.75 billion from $4.83 billion. The online services division posted a revenue increase to $843 million, though its loss widened to $228 million [Above, verbatim copy] Entertainment is up, which I assume means primarily the XBox and games. Reflect on that for a moment. Windows is deflating, if not in raw numbers, then is rate of return. If the those numbers reflect a more knowledgeable base, they may suffer on the office applications where they get an even higher return than on the OS. Notice the profits are down, not vanishing. If you really want to compete with a monster of that size, do it from a firm foundation. |
| helios Apr 25, 2008 3:00 AM EDT |
If you really want to compete with a monster of that size, do it from a firm foundation. Completely agree. Now do you have any suggestions as to how to get that "firm foundation" of about 40 million users motivated to market this thing we do? One person or even a group of like-motivated people are not going to have much of an effect unless someone wants to climb to the top of the Golden Gate Bridge with me and hold the other end of the banner. I'm fairly well exhausted from my unsuccessful efforts. I am banking heavily on LIN08 to at least generate some interest. h |
| gus3 Apr 25, 2008 6:56 AM EDT |
And please, no vandalism. IBM got in big trouble in 2000 when they spray-painted little 3-icon logos on sidewalks around San Francisco. |
| jdixon Apr 25, 2008 8:15 AM EDT |
> I'm fairly well exhausted from my unsuccessful efforts. Ken, fixedbylinux seems to me to be the best idea you've come up with so far. |
| helios Apr 25, 2008 9:39 PM EDT |
LOL...jdixon...10,000 monkeys, broken clocks twice a day...enough mud thrown against a wall... these all seem to take a place in my mind as a I read your comment. and sincerely...thank you. I think we have hit the right tone here but I will attribute that to Sander's tempered approach and obvious talent. Once we get the 1st months blanket advertising costs accumulated, this freakin' thing might just blow right open. Anyone seen the blurb of footage from our cd handout last summer? Exhibitor is Tom Cameron from Redhat, Tom King, myself, Mark Unwin, "Sister" and a bunch of other Linuxistas from the area handed out disks in front of the Wheatsville coop...mild success ensued, nothing earth shaking but this reaction was just the tip of the iceberg to what we experienced that day. Hey...let's do it again in Felton. h http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEu9za0ubTk h |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 29, 2008 6:36 AM EDT |
helios, Regarding your question: 'Now do you have any suggestions as to how to get that "firm foundation" of about 40 million users motivated to market this thing we do?' No, I have stated I disagree with the approach. The best response I have is in an extract of an email: [From lwn.net http://lwn.net/Articles/279895/#Comments on the named article by the writer's alias llisted below) The Great Ubuntu-Girlfriend Experiment (Content Consumer) Posted Apr 28, 2008 18:22 UTC (Mon) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] "What doesn't, she complains about, and I fix like a good little sysadmin." [quote from another post] " ... users who were enthusiastic about Linux at the beginning, but gave up when they got into trouble and the only computer-savvy people at hand knew some Windows and no Linux. ..." (end of extract) I am troubled by your approach for several reasons, but the above succinctly points to a big flaw in your approach. Those attracted by advertising are unlikely to be motivated enough to help themselves let alone others. That is what I meant by building a firm foundation first. As an example of building a firm foundation, the recent announcement seen here and elsewhere as a projected 53 Million (educational) Linux desktops in Brazil is more substantial. If you discount those numbers as I do, that would still give a firm 10% of the figure you mention [http://lwn.net/Articles/279627/]. Using analogy (and beyond* its worth), you are proposing direct, frontal assault on the strongest positions of a world class power. I think the better model is asymmetric warfare where the attacks are at lightly defended or weak points. These attacks are not decisive, but they cause pain. That is, pick a niche and carve out an area that appears to be enduring gain. Nonetheless, being prepared to perform a hasty, strategic retreat when the behemoth claims its lost turf. Or maybe not, this is not really a war. So if Linux owns some embedded space or some cell phones, there is no need to retreat. More likely Linux could become wide spread without any recognition by those that use and/or carry the devices. I sense that would not satisfy you. Winning may be very different than your vision. Moreover, the change in percentages need not be that large. Furthermore, I think the corporate desktop is the better target, since it could build the support ecosystem that could be later contracted to support a wider population of users. In other words, Red Hat, Canonical and others trying to break into the corporate market may be the better tact. You are certainly free to reject my views, however, do not presume I am obligated to support yours. * Argument by analogy is by definition fallacious [but it does not mean I am wrong]. |
| DiBosco Apr 29, 2008 3:02 PM EDT |
>> Winning may be very different than your vision. Moreover, the change in percentages need not be that large. Furthermore, I think the corporate desktop is the better target, since it could build the support ecosystem that could be later contracted to support a wider population of users. In other words, Red Hat, Canonical and others trying to break into the corporate market may be the better tact. |
| DiBosco Apr 29, 2008 3:03 PM EDT |
I think this is the key. When companies start using Linux (and with it applications like Open Office), people have no option but to use it and get used to it. Linux will then quickly become mainstream. (Sorry for double post, something's gone wrong with my first reply.) |
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