splendid idiocy
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick Apr 17, 2008 10:56 AM EDT |
Red Hat never had plans to develop a consumer desktop. Even back in the Red Hat Linux days they soft-pedaled the consumer retail desktop and positioned themselves as an enterprise company. It takes a special effort to ignore all the cool stuff in the blog posting they're referencing-RHEL, Fedora, XO/OLPC, and the global desktop thingy- and make a mountain out of a minor, throwaway comment. |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 17, 2008 11:21 AM EDT |
Whatever happened to the Red Hat Global Desktop? Even if they don't make any money off of it, it helps get Red Hat code out there, and get people using it who, when they do need to roll out servers, would be more inclined to use RHEL if they had some experience with the system. As it is, all these people using Ubuntu, should they ever be in the position to configure a server, might just use what they already know. It's like CentOS. It's a great way for someone to run Red Hat without paying for it. And if they suddenly need to roll out a server that's more mission-critical for an organization that has a few sheckles to its name, they might just go for RHEL because a) they know how it works and b) they need the support. So in that case CentOS is just a free advertising and marketing program for Red Hat. And giving current Red Hat customers something on the desktop that complements what they're running on the servers is also a good idea for the company, I think. |
| garymax Apr 17, 2008 12:22 PM EDT |
Red Hat just shot themselves in the foot. It couldn't be plainer: We don't do desktops. All the crap about the desktop market being a hard target to hit is just that: rubbish. If they wanted to they could easily provide a desktop, and, given their sheer size, they would have a good following and uptake. Now Canonical and their Ubuntu product will beat Red Hat to the desktop and become entrenched. Then when people need a server, they will reach for the Ubuntu server CD and go with what they know. Red Hat, by not getting a desktop to market, has abandoned the Linux desktop user and has left the door wide open for Canonical to walk right in and set up shop in their own back yard. Or is that server room? I know RH has a lot of market power now but in a few years time, as Ubuntu gets stabilized on the desktop, the server will surely follow. And it will be too late for RH. And don't get me started with Fedora. That is a test bed only and not even meant for production. |
| helios Apr 17, 2008 1:14 PM EDT |
Among Linux Users, yes Ubuntu et al is king, but so ok...one buntu user tells a Windows User, maybe he migrates, maybe he doesn't...and if he does, he may not stay...New Linux Users are a bit high maintenance...trust me on this one. If the mentor isn't present, chances are they will return to the devil they know vs the one they do not. Until Mark Shuttleworth defeats the Linux Dillema, fills the void between the customer and the Linux OS on the shiny new systems in the store, people are still going to reject it. The market needs to be "softened". They hear about Linux on radio, see it on TV...THEN they purchase a computer with Linux on it and they say "Oh so THIS is Linux". The mass return rate Walmart suffered from the recent cheap Linux machine sales didn't echo the above statement...it was more like... "What kind of crap is this?" And I know the word of mouth argument is going to come, and for those who offer it, I simply say this. We've been around for over a decade and we still are under a world market of 5 percent. At this rate, we should capture 30 percent of the desktop market by 2060. Sander, Dino, TC, TA DA...check my math. It is suspect at best. h |
| tuxtom Apr 17, 2008 1:32 PM EDT |
I feel a bit vindicated here. If I were in business for profit...which is the only reason I would be in business or I really wouldn't really be in business...I would have to agree with RedHat. The Linux desktop is not ready for the mainstream consumer market. It still takes a "power user" to be really effective with a Linux desktop without needing massive support. Even the Power User runs into occasional brick walls more that he shouldn't need to with a desktop OS. I'm very pleased with Linux as a personal Desktop, but I'm not pleased with the denial here that it is ready for Prime Time. Far from it. Even Ubuntu. I mentioned in a previous thread that I migrated my Father back to a Mac from his Ubuntu Dell...which he honestly tried to use and I honestly tried to support. Since he got his new Macbook and an external backup drive and 21" widescreen LCD everything just worked...day one...out of the box...with nary a tweak...and I have not had one support call (I did get a sweet 1420n laptop out of Linux's consumer-space failure, however). Linux cannot even come close to that. It DOESN"T just work for an average user...it becomes a royal PITA to support an average user. It's not that it's unfeasible "technically", it's unfeasible from a usability standpoint...it's just not uniform enough. Every distro and every piece of software...GPL or otherwise... running on it does things inconsitently. Where did those photos from my digital camera end up when I imported them? It took me some searching to figure it out myself. Too much of that is not ironed out and unless "Linux, Inc." wraps it up under one company it will literally take years to even get close....but of course the communists...er, Stallmans...would never let that happen (right TC?). Them's the breaks when you are experimenting with subversive, fringe economics. I'm not saying that's bad...it just IS. These "usability" things don't bother us here so much at LXer, but they sure as hell bother the average end-user and that affects the bottom line which affects the shareholders. Until it is profitable, the Linux desktop will remain a niche, which I think it should until it's ready...if it ever is. I'm not holding my breath....there is plenty of dough to be made in the server room in my lifetime...not to mention I despise end user technical support. Let the Windows crowd take care of that mess. I know this is blasphemous here at LXer, but reality is reality. "Cheerfully submitted from a Kubuntu desktop" |
| jdixon Apr 17, 2008 1:35 PM EDT |
> ...check my math. It is suspect at best. Depends on the growth rate, Ken. If we've gone from 2% to 5% over the last 5 years, that's a doubling approximately every 4 years. Say 5 for convenience, and assume a static (but exponential) growth rate and marketplace, neither of which is probably true. In that case, we get to 10% in 5 years, 20% in 10, 40% in 15, and 80% in 20. |
| jdixon Apr 17, 2008 1:39 PM EDT |
> Red Hat, by not getting a desktop to market, has abandoned the Linux desktop user... They did that when they dropped Red Hat Linux, years ago. |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 17, 2008 3:36 PM EDT |
Quoting:New Linux Users are a bit high maintenance...trust me on this one. If the mentor isn't present, chances are they will return to the devil they know vs the one they do not. Quoting:The Linux desktop is not ready for the mainstream consumer market. It still takes a "power user" to be really effective with a Linux desktop without needing massive support. I really don't get you guys. Are you doing it right? I moved my parents over to Linux a few years ago and I hardly get a peep out of them. I got three calls in the first week, one in the second and since then they only call me once every 6 months when a new Ubuntu is released and the update manager tells them to install it. And even that they can do by themselves. I just told them I want to be there in case something goes wrong. About a month ago I moved another friend to Linux, the one with the ATI card that had me fuming at the mouth. I got two e-mails in the first week and one today. Perhaps you guys are moving the wrong people to Linux? You seem to have a mindset that you need some computer skill to move someone to Linux. That's dead wrong. The most eligible people to move to Linux are the most computer illiterate ones. The dumber the better. It's the people that know how to operate Windows somewhat that cause the most trouble because they are stuck in their Windows ways. When they want new software they trawl the internet and try to donwload and install stuff. They fiddle with all the setting. They google for a solution to some problem and do what $RANDOM blog posts says without even thinging what they're typing or clicking on. They don't even know to check that the article is about the same distro they have. WIndows doesn't have the "distro" concept. So eventually they mess something up and they call you. Seriously. Try again. Find the most computer illiterate person you can find and move him/her to Linux. The kind of computer user who's too afraid to install software, even if it's point&click. The kind that calls you before they go try some $RANDOM article that Google dug up. The kind of user that you can preconfigure a computer for and who doesn't have to change a thing afterwards. The kind of person who has no bad windows habits to un-learn. Just like the server room (starting with LAMP) and just like the laptop market (staring with the cheap and slow UMPC) we need to conquer the desktop users bottom-up. |
| tuxchick Apr 17, 2008 3:50 PM EDT |
jdixon, RH abandoned the free-as-in-freeloader crowd. You might remember how forums were full of outraged cries of "no more free RH downloads? Well I'll show them- I'll use something else!" Yeah, whatever. It was a hard decision, and it paid off- Red Hat has been profitable and growing ever since. And they're doing it without any hybrid licensing where they close off the juicy bits and release crippled FOSS versions, or any other semi-scammy schemes that are so common. They're a major supporter of Linux development, and you can easily get freebeer RHEL clones. I suspect that the anti-Red Hat crowd will never be happy with anything Red Hat does. Supporting the retail market is significantly different from supporting the enterprise. I don't know why people are so outraged that Red Hat doesn't try to be all things to all users. Mandriva, Xandros, and Linspire all market to the consumer/home user crowd. (OK, so Linspire sux, but there they are.) They're competing against a zillion free Linuxes. I wish Xandros or Mandriva would get on retail shelves- they're both very user-friendly, and Xandros builds in all kinds of Windows compatibility that works out of the box. |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 17, 2008 3:54 PM EDT |
The fact that Dell didn't seem to make sure its own hardware was supported in the Linux configuration it chose and shipped is a sad commentary. I don't have any of these in my possession (being cheap and all), but I'm hoping for better things from HP's new Mini-Note (SLED) and the Asus Eee (Xandros). If these companies can manage to get the OS to the point where all the hardware is supported, all the applications are there, and it all works, that will go a long way toward redeeming Linux in the eyes of many. Not having installed Windows in a few years now, my last install required a few drivers from the motherboard maker to get the whole thing working. On this same hardware, many Linux distros do a lot better. And maybe, just maybe, more hardware vendors will start supporting Linux. Gotta get that geek mindshare, you know. |
| rijelkentaurus Apr 17, 2008 4:14 PM EDT |
Quoting: I really don't get you guys. I've had the same experience, Sander, I never have to support my Linux folks, stuff just chugs along and works. Quoting: They're a major supporter of Linux development, and you can easily get freebeer RHEL clones. Which is why they don't need to bother with a paid desktop OS, plenty of people use CentOS, etc, and Fedora (yes, a testbed) is very VERY VERY widely used both as a desktop and a server, and so they get a lot of free and useful beta testing for the flagship product. Quoting: I wish Xandros or Mandriva would get on retail shelves- they're both very user-friendly, and Xandros builds in all kinds of Windows compatibility that works out of the box. I have installed Mandriva 2008.1 PP on my work laptop (dual with D'ohs XPee) and it really rocks. A hardware vendor (dang it, Sun, give up on Solaris on the desktop!!!) needs to buy them and use Mandriva as their OS the same way Apple does with OS X. That's going to be what pushes Linux farther into the market, very much as is happening with things like the Eeepc (or whatever the heck it's called). |
| jdixon Apr 17, 2008 5:15 PM EDT |
> jdixon, RH abandoned the free-as-in-freeloader crowd. Yes, but the also abandoned the free troubleshooting and support network which had existed around it. I think that's shown in the quality of Fedora vs. the old Red Hat Linux releases. I have no real problem with their decision; businesses exist to make money (and the value of the 15 shares of Red Hat I own is a nice reminder of their success), but I'm not going to pretend it was other than what it was. Red Hat chose the enterprise over the home user. That's their call, but I'm a home user, not an enterprise. The won't support me so I don't support them or recommend them for home use. |
| tracyanne Apr 17, 2008 6:32 PM EDT |
Quoting:Seriously. Try again. Find the most computer illiterate person you can find and move him/her to Linux. Exactly Sander. My own move from Windows to Linux was terribly fraught, I kept trying to do things the Windows way. I was Only when I sat down and spent some time working out why what I was doing that was wrong that I actually got somewhere. Adn it's not as if I'm doing huge amounts of CLI stuff, 99% of my Linux usage is GUI based. The problem I had was I was trying to do Windows things, and they either made things worse or simply got me no where. |
| dinotrac Apr 17, 2008 6:34 PM EDT |
TC -- What you said. People who don't pay have no right to complain when you cease to offer a product. If there were money to make, Red Hat -- not to mention SuSE -- would be offering end-user desktop stuff. Hasn't happened. Why begrudge the fact that they've found a way to stay in business, make money, and continue to contribute to FOSS? |
| jdixon Apr 18, 2008 5:40 PM EDT |
> People who don't pay have no right to complain when you cease to offer a product. I didn't use Red Hat, but I did support and recommend it. I would still recommend it for enterprise level jobs, but not for home use. |
| hkwint Apr 19, 2008 6:06 AM EDT |
Quoting:It's the people that know how to operate Windows somewhat that cause the most trouble because they are stuck in their Windows way Indeed. Looking at the ones afraid of the 'AntiVir' screen (what is it? Why does it pop up?), not knowing how to manage ZoneAlarm (darnit, why doesn't it just work?) and not understanding malware (great, a new toolbar!), and the ones not understanding where the HP windows-scanner software puts there scanned images (you see, that's not only for Linux! Even I had a hard time finding them) and not knowing how to minimize Windows even after five years of using Windows, they are the easiest to convert. The ones not being able to work with Firefox even on Windows and asking for IE; and the ones saying Linux is secure because nobody uses it: Forget about them for the coming five years. However, I had a lot of success with a friend of mine - almost a Windows guru - who used free /open software on Windows already, like PHP, FileZilla and Firefox. Especially after we made a script on his hosted Debian gameserver which restarts if users delete a file - which means he doesn't have to manually restart the gameservers and his users having to call him - he was very glad. |
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