where do the blocks come from?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick Dec 31, 2007 11:18 AM EDT |
I was hoping a discussion would magically emerge on why some folks simply refuse to learn. Well it didn't, so here we go! I'll admit I'm being judgmental on this- I judge that anyone who uses a computer every day in their work, or buys one to use at home, and doesn't invest any effort in learning to use it competently is a waste of space. You don't have to be gung-ho computer geek to develop a basic competence. It's not limited to computers. We can cite examples all day of this sort of behavior- being mystified by tasks like hanging pictures or patching holes in walls, having zero clues about what lies under the hood of a vehicle, never reading a label or manual or instructions of any kind and then getting mad when things go wrong. And thus we (in the US) have this huge untidy wad of weird and senseless laws designed to protect people from themselves, and you can hardly unwrap a stick of chewing gum without having to rip through a sheet of terms and conditions in 4-point type. Maybe it's a question of upbringing and expectations. My grandparents and great-grandparents were immigrants and homesteaders. They had skills deluxe- running farms, putting up and maintaining structures, making clothes, making foods from raw materials (homemade wine and cheese, mmgood), fixing machinery- etc., you get the idea. They never had the luxury of collapsing into a whiny heap and crying "wah wah, I can't possibly do that." They valued education, and I remember my grandmother talking about her first visit to a public library- that was an event. All that knowledge for free. It's even easier now- you don't even have to leave your house to visit a universe of information. This mindset was, thankfully, passed down through the generations. I have no idea how to milk a cow or make wine, or do like my dad and be an ace gunsmith or play a gazillion musical instruments, but I know I could learn. So is that the difference? Just being willing to try? |
| 53skiddo Dec 31, 2007 11:47 AM EDT |
Not only are folks becoming less and less interested in knowledge for knowledge's sake, they're becoming more and more proud of their ignorance. There's no impetus to learn when everyone around you feels the same way. |
| Bob_Robertson Dec 31, 2007 1:30 PM EDT |
> they're becoming more and more proud of their ignorance. There's no impetus to learn when everyone around you feels the same way. Public School. |
| tracyanne Dec 31, 2007 1:42 PM EDT |
No not public School. Simply the way children are taught in a formal setting, Oracle to the acolyte - rote, imagination and free inquiry are not encouraged. |
| Bob_Robertson Dec 31, 2007 2:18 PM EDT |
Thanks, Tracy, that's what I said. |
| theboomboomcars Dec 31, 2007 3:12 PM EDT |
It may stem from the fact that instead of reading books to children, parents are sitting them down in front of the tv. Growing up my house was one of the few on the block that actually a book shelves with books on them. We have a generation of people that are joining into the workforce etc. That there only exposure to reading is text books. They have denied them selves to ever engage their brain, thus when asked to do so they refuse. I am in my final year of college, studying to become a teacher, and it baffles me the lack of independant thought that it brought to class discussions. There is a decided lack of logic and reasoning and most of what is said is just regurgitated from the text or a web site, no expouding or application of the information just a verbatium repetition of what was read. This may be the fault of public education, but I think it lies on the layer above that. I know growing up my parents engaged us kids in discussions and other activities that caused us to think. I know from spending time with the neighbor hood kids that this is not always the case. If parents got more involved in the mental development of their children I think the children would have a greater interest to learn. But just watching TV with no discussion of what is going on, whether what the characters are doing is good or bad, other ways to handle situations, different ways to accomplish the goals, etc. People will not develop the necessary skills or desire to learn. I went through the public education system in America and I some how picked up how to learn and the desire to do so, so the fault cannot be completely placed on public education system. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 01, 2008 10:20 AM EDT |
I, also, put in my time in the public school, but spent most of it in a state of open rebellion. What did I have time to do? Read. Read, read, read. Even with the TV, and boy did I spend a lot of time in front of the TV, when I was 12 I moved to where the TV reception was awful. So I had more time to read, and read, and read. Reading for pleasure does seem to be one of the defining factors. |
| herzeleid Jan 01, 2008 10:35 AM EDT |
> Reading for pleasure does seem to be one of the defining factors. I've always loved curling up with a good book by Dostoyevsky or CS Lewis or Michael Crichton to while away a rainy day. That reminds me, Neil Stephenson wrote an interesting little book called "in the beginning was the command line", and one of the points he made was that the kinds of people who are comfortable with the written word are the sort who can be comfortable with unix, and those who are uncomfortable with the written word are the sort of people who fear unix. Speaking of Stephenson, he gives a thinly veiled nod to linux in his epic historical sci story "cryptonomicon", definitely a must read for any self-respecting geek. |
| pat Jan 01, 2008 11:19 AM EDT |
Only when there is mutual respect and positive encouragement can there be any way of getting someone to learn something new. And if you want to know why no one wants to discuss why people refuse to learn (which I believe to be a false premise), then write about that, leave out the insults and name calling. |
| moopst Jan 01, 2008 11:36 AM EDT |
I second herzeleid's recommendation of Cryptonomicon. I found Neil's cynical sense of humor to be very much like my own. As for TV, I currently do not pay for cable or satellite and when the analog signals go away in '09 - I might not even bother to get a digital TV or converter box. |
| azerthoth Jan 01, 2008 11:43 AM EDT |
@pat, a rose by any other name ... being politically correct does no one any good either. Call a spade a spade and if it hurts their poor little feelings then there must be some truth for the barb to stick to in the first place. When one is blunt one is seldom misunderstood. |
| pat Jan 01, 2008 3:18 PM EDT |
Anonymous Azerthoth, I really hope you stick to only dealing with machines and not people.. You can be honest and not hurt someones feelings, it has nothing to do with being "politically correct", an over-abused term by people who want to disagree, but just can't come out and say it, so much for being blunt. Anyway, if I'm truly interested in helping someone, the last thing I want to do is generate hostility, so being blunt, as you say, is not really an option. If I'm describing the people I'm trying to help as blockheads after the fact, I'm either in the wrong business, or I maybe I've got some other personal issues that I haven't addressed. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 01, 2008 3:45 PM EDT |
_Cryptonomicon_ was, to me, just too long. But then I've been quite the fan of SciFi, so it doesn't really matter me the _why_ of using organ pipes as a temporary RAM device, I don't need a 20 page explanation. Just say it works and let it go. Yeah, "Finnix". I caught the reference too. _In The Beginning Was The Command Line_ is a great essay... "And on the other side of the street, they're making tanks. Not slow, hulking iron things, but fast, fully modern Abrams M1A1 main battle tanks that get 100 miles to the gallon and carry your entire family. For free. At any moment there are dozens of them sitting out front of numerous dealerships, with the keys in the ignition, free for the taking." The essay itself is available to anyone, for free, from Stephenson's website. |
| gus3 Jan 01, 2008 4:27 PM EDT |
@pat: Trying to teach someone who doesn't want to learn is sometimes perceived in itself as hostility. Viz.: --the car owner who knows more than the mechanic --the self-diagnosing patient --the myriad lawyers on Slashdot This perception has nothing to with the actual attitude of the person doing the talking. A lot of people think that dangling their money in front of me makes them my boss. A lot of people are wrong. If they want my services, they can get out of my way and let me work; otherwise, they can find some other whipping-boy. |
| pat Jan 01, 2008 6:19 PM EDT |
You can always say no to the money Anonymous Gus3. If the clients expectations are unacceptable, don't take the business. Of the scenarios you mention, none have anything to do with trying to teach someone, one is a service provided, the mechanic doesn't teach the person anything since the mechanic is not doing something the person would do in the normal everyday usage of a car, two can be handled by a doctor professionally, and three is just nonsense. |
| helios Jan 02, 2008 3:38 AM EDT |
leave out the insults and name calling...... whooo boy! This is a reserved and restrained effort by ms TC...trust me on this one. If your sensibilities were bruised by this, I will not be the one to recommend some of her more pointed comments. And who are we kidding here. It's political correctness all of the time in this country and there's no disguising it...you can call a lump of coal a diamond if you want, but when you pick it up, your hands are still filthy. The last thing a pc'er wants, at least here in Austin, is what they advocate identified as PC...it scares them to death...it pulls the covers right off of them. PC is going to be the downfall of this nation...along with the whiny crybabies TC so astutely points out. Other than that, I really don't have much of an opinion on the subject. h |
| thenixedreport Jan 11, 2008 10:36 PM EDT |
"PC is going to be the downfall of this nation...along with the whiny crybabies TC so astutely points out." It's also the fear of thinking for one's own self. A good portion of the problem does stem from the public indoctrination (school) system. No Left Behind in this country has also been labeled "No One Gets Ahead." Another issue is less parental involvement in the lives of their children. They expect TV or something else to do the parenting for them (not always the case, but common nonetheless). Here's an assignment just for fun... 1.) Watch Idiocracy (rent it if you have to...). That movie alone may open your eyes. 2.) Compare the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto to the American Constitution AND what currently exists in that same country today. That may give a few more ideas as to where the blocks are coming from in addition to how to overcome those blocks. If people can't master technology, others can use that technology to control them. |
| Scott_Ruecker Jan 12, 2008 12:31 AM EDT |
Quoting:Watch Idiocracy (rent it if you have to...). That movie alone may open your eyes. Awesome Movie!! Too Funny!! |
| ColonelPanik Jan 12, 2008 8:31 AM EDT |
Home schooled three, ones a lawyer :( Ones a nurse :)
And one is a game playing slacker °_°
Most of their pre-teen life there was no or limited TV. Yeah, they read. Okay, lets put helios in charge of education. TC can be our PR person. Bob_R will do commerce azerthoth, I guess he should build snowmen? Scott, please take notes. The rest of you mill around smartly. But all seriousness aside, WTF happened? ameriKa went from hero to hated in 30 years. Is that a record? Can Linux save us? No, Linux cannot save us but the kind of people that do Linux CAN save us! |
| azerthoth Jan 12, 2008 9:09 AM EDT |
heh, thanks colonel. and #nixedreport Quoting: Political Correctness is based on the assumption that you can pick up a turd by the clean end. |
| dobbie606 Jan 23, 2008 6:12 PM EDT |
Morons shouldn't own computers! G'day prof tuxchick, -many thanks for Your splendid rant -UncleDave has been venting his spleen on this topic every sunday for years... --> this is from a fan of SoundBytes.org, ' the longest running computer show in the known universe', a compilation of their segment,'Uncle Dave's Story Hour' 'Alright kiddies, it's that time once again...' http://udsh.net/udsh_071223.mp3 cheers, dar dobs |
| tuxchick Jan 23, 2008 6:25 PM EDT |
"This damned guitar was tuned when I bought it" Ahh yessss..... :) |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 24, 2008 5:36 AM EDT |
> But all seriousness aside, WTF happened? ameriKa went from hero to hated in 30 years. Oh boy, I could answer this. Really I could. But I don't want TC and Sander to get mad at me again! |
| Sander_Marechal Jan 24, 2008 5:40 AM EDT |
That's why the LXer forums have a private message system. And why there's e-mail :-) |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 24, 2008 6:16 AM EDT |
Did I mention that I did first-line tech support for Apple back around the launch of System 7? "What do mean! Of course it's plugged in! Do you think I'm stupid?" "No sir, just starting at the biginning so nothing is missed. Can you verify that the machine is plugged in?" "It's under my desk hold on... {censored}" click. |
| hkwint Jan 24, 2008 6:48 AM EDT |
I guess a lot of people suffer from the 'Everything is already discussed, written and invented; and what difference do I make anyway?' syndrome. Only listening to people who did actually learn stuff and not contemplating it for yourself works remarkably well these days. Also anxiety about all kind of things that might go wrong - and the laws coming with the anxiety - prevent people from experimenting. I always see this when people new to a computer start using it: They are so afraid to mess up things, they are too anxious to try out new things, which is why they refuse to learn new things. Telling them how to change the configuration on their PC is like telling them the best way to perform a somersault during bungee jumping. Also, with all the complex choices people have to make today which force them to learn new things, they might be tired of learning. If you have to choose car insurance, you have to 'learn' and find out about the rules etc, if you buy a house you have to learn how mortgage works, if you buy a new computer you have to find out what all these terms mean and learn about specs, if you go on holidays to a country where a language is spoken you have to learn a few words in that language, if you want to drive you have to learn the traffic rules, you have to learn how the video recorder works, and on and on and on. I had health insurance from the state for a while, and didn't have to care about it, it just worked; no reason to worry. OK, maybe the insurance terms weren't all those well, and people who were privately insured were helped quicker and better, but I didn't have to read any terms. Than, 'state health insurance' was abolished, and I had to learn because I had to choose a new insurance from over 20 possible companies who offered at least 5 different insurances. I spent hours trying to compare terms etc., just to be sure I didn't end up paying too much or with bad insurance. Sitting in front of the TV and ordering fastfood doesn't require learning and is a nice way to pass time after you read about 'insurance terms' for two hours. It requires less energy than trying to learn Chinese after these two hours; and what you just learned about insurance can be processed by the brain. In the past there were no car insuranes, mortgages, computers, video recorders, traffic rules and most people didn't have money to go on holiday. Therefore, in the past it was easier to choose for yourself what you wanted to learn and what not. Nowadays, to make all the choices someone has to make in a 'free market world' you are just forced to learn. The more one can choose, the more one has to learn. Compare installing Gentoo (the 'free market model') to installing Ubuntu. Sometimes the free market works, sometimes it doesn't, but this isn't the place to discuss. Fact is, the more free the market becomes, the more choices people have to make, the more they are forced to learn, and the more they become tired of learning. Personally, I believe people who live in a very regulated society where choices are pre-made for them can easier learn a lot more about a certain topic, because their mind isn't filled with mortgage terms, health insurance terms, how to choose a new car or video recorder and so on. As an example: If I had used Ubuntu insead of Gentoo, I wouldn't have been forced to learn all kind of problems the Gentoo-choices raise (the more choices, the more possible combinations, the more that can go wrong), and instead I could have learned how to make animations using GIMP or SynFig, play the guitar or learn Chinese. Now, however since I was forced to learn how to 'fix' my EVMS system which I had chosen myself but had messed up, I spent a lot of time trying to learn how to fix it. After all this forum reading about EVMS I'm too tired to learn GIMP. That must be why the OLPC doesn't come with Gentoo but a very simple pre-made desktop: If those children had to learn Gentoo they would be too tired and lack time to learn language and arithmetic. |
| theboomboomcars Jan 24, 2008 8:02 AM EDT |
Quoting:"if you buy a house you have to learn how mortgage works" This is a very important thing, that many people over the last few years overlooked when purchasing their houses.(At least here in America) Foreclosures are at an all time high and our local news station did an interview of some people who were going through the foreclosure process and they said they don't know what happened. They bought a really expensive home with one of those loans that has a really low introductory rate for the first few years, then the rate jumps up. So even though the couldn't really afford the home, they could afford the payments at the low rate, but as always happens interest rates went up then they could not afford their payments anymore. It seems if they could have spent some time learning what they were getting into they could have saved themselves some aggravation, humiliation, and losing their home. It is strange that otherwise intelligent people seem stupid when it comes to learning something that is just a bit different from what they are used to. At least there is hope, Linux usage is growing, and I don't think it's just because you can get it for free. |
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