Oh no! Better start ripping all that Java out
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 4:08 AM EDT |
Microsoft interoperability pact and now a Windows OEM? What kind of nefarious Microsoft patented stuff will we see in Java now? |
| tracyanne Sep 13, 2007 5:22 AM EDT |
ROFLMTO |
| hchaudh1 Sep 13, 2007 6:25 AM EDT |
As far as I can tell, Java has its own eco system. It is neither an implementation of a Microsoft sponsored standard, nor is it a copy of it. On top of that, Sun does not control Java anymore, at least not to a great degree (OpenJDK). So, no, I am not ROFLMTO. |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 6:48 AM EDT |
>On top of that, Sun does not control Java anymore, at least not to a great degree No less than Novell controls mono. |
| Libervis Sep 13, 2007 6:52 AM EDT |
Dino and Tracy, are you here to laugh out loud at people you disagree with or are you here for a reasonable discussion. Judging from this thread you're here for the former. hchaudh1 made a good point to which you only partially responded, as usual, to fit your view. Get a life! |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 6:55 AM EDT |
>Dino and Tracy, are you here to laugh out loud at people you disagree with or are you here for a reasonable discussion. Laughing out loud, absolutely. I know better than to come here for reasonable discussions of topics with religious undertones. >Get a life! No need, already got one. Better still, I have one that doesn't require jamming my head a foot deep into the sand. |
| Libervis Sep 13, 2007 7:07 AM EDT |
OMFG do you even read your posts man? Where the hell did we talk about religion? And what are those "religious undertones" *exactly*? I should have expected that you will try to pull another "religion" non-argument. This is really becoming the lowest point in a conversation: "When everything else fails, brand them as religious lunatics and everyone will step back." I said it before and I'll say it again. Trying to put religion related connotations on your opponent in a debate is a sure fire sign that the party in question is starting to rely more on FUD rather than rational arguments to defend its position. I've even expressed elsewhere that I am not *that* hot on the heels for this subject anyway, that it is just a conversation in which I accept I might change even my own positions. Where the fsck do you see religious undertones here? God damnit! There is your religious undertone!!! |
| hchaudh1 Sep 13, 2007 7:14 AM EDT |
@dinotrac I didn't even say a word about Novell or Mono? Why are you always either 1. defending Novell/Mono or 2. turning every post into a "Mono good, me pragmatic, you rabid fool" type of discussion? I saw something wrong with your logic and pointed it out. |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 7:30 AM EDT |
>I didn't even say a word about Novell or Mono? You certainly didn't. I did. My post is a direct reference to some of ridiculous rants about mono that have circulated around here in the last few days. My response to your post was less a response to you than an extension of my post. As to defending Novell/Mono, I could give a rat's behind. I don't use mono. In fact, mono has been more a pain in the butt for me than anything else because beagle is a mono app and I hate it. I do use opensuse on one of my machines (the others have flavors of Ubuntu, but I'm considering giving pclinuxos another shot), but that's not exactly Novell. What I do defend is the truth as I see it. I've seen a flat-out lies, logical inconsistencies, backtracking and all kinds of stuff that boils down to hatred and paranoia. People hate Microsoft and are afraid of what it'll do. I get that. It's a legitimate feeling based on a lot of nasty history. My personal dislike of Microsoft is why I don't use their stuff unless forced to. Nevertheless, I am very fond of facts, reason, and honest arguments. So sue me. >I saw something wrong with your logic and pointed it out. Au contraire. You saw a point worth making and made it. |
| Libervis Sep 13, 2007 7:43 AM EDT |
Oh, the truth, reason and honesty loving dinotrac, in your speech above you still didn't manage to respond to hchaudh1's second actual question: Why are you "turning every post into a "Mono good, me pragmatic, you rabid fool" type of discussion?" Of course, you said you don't care about Mono so much (interesting, neither do I so it's apparently not much of a variable here). However you do have a tendency to "bite" so to speak, and bite people's credibility, not arguments. Because this simply was not anything else than that: Quoting:I know better than to come here for reasonable discussions of topics with religious undertones. It's sarcasm, but with implications which are beyond the usual self-justification of sarcasm as such. Not only do you offend those who believe you are referring to (within the context of current ongoing discussions), but you are potentially insulting everyone else on LXer too. For you know better than to come here for a reasonable discussion, noone here is capable of making one - except of course - yourself. |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 8:01 AM EDT |
libervis - Feeling a little vulnerable, are we? |
| Libervis Sep 13, 2007 8:12 AM EDT |
Heh you are incredible. You just keep going on. If you could just listen to yourself you'd know just how little sense that question made (just as much as the whole "religion" connotation). But hey, keep fooling yourself if it suits you. What else can I say. |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 8:25 AM EDT |
>Heh you are incredible. Yes I am, and incredible feels good. |
| jdixon Sep 13, 2007 8:37 AM EDT |
> ...but you are potentially insulting everyone else on LXer too. Dino knows that some of us aren't that easily offended, Libervis. I always try to listen to what Dino says, as he usually has good reasons for his statements, but that doesn't mean I agree with him all the time. |
| Abe Sep 13, 2007 8:52 AM EDT |
@Dino,
Quoting:I know better than to come here for reasonable discussions of topics with religious undertones.Stop this religious connotation nonsense man, even MS dropped it long time ago already. You are grounded for a 2nd time and the week isn't over yet. Quoting:What kind of nefarious Microsoft patented stuff will we see in Java now?What does this have to do with Java anyways? Nothing Sun became a MS OEM, like many others. So what, IBM sells systems with Windows too. What is the difference. What does this have to do with FOSS. To come to think of it, using VMWare, Linux acts as a host for Windows, So what? Does that make Linux bad? Quoting:ROFLMTOTracyanne, Dino, Your arguments don't make sense and aren't convincing, your minds have been contaminated and can't see the truth. You aren't anticipating checks in the mail, are you? |
| phsolide Sep 13, 2007 8:53 AM EDT |
You should go ahead and rip out all that Java: Java sucks. It hit's the "unsweet spot" between an "in the trenches" utility language like C, and a high-level language like Python, Perl, sh-script or Haskell. Also, with every release they make it more and more like Dinosaur++ I mean C++, the COBOL of the 90s. The only reason to use Java is that you can hire (or already have hired) $10/hour downtrodden Windows code-monkeys to produce your schlock-o "enterprise" software in a Big Ball of Mud design pattern. Java lets people replace "design" with Garbage Collection. And it shows. This rant was brought to you by C and Python. |
| jdixon Sep 13, 2007 8:55 AM EDT |
> You aren't anticipating checks in the mail, are you? That's uncalled for, Abe. Yes, Dino can be a bit caustic, but he doesn't deserve that, and tracyanne has been fairly civil in her disagreements. You should apologize. |
| Libervis Sep 13, 2007 8:56 AM EDT |
jdixon:Quoting:Dino knows that some of us aren't that easily offended, Libervis. "Some of us", yes, not all of us. While I agree that Dino makes quite a few reasonable statements and I've even agreed with some he made regarding the Mono discussion, I just think that bringing up religion into the strategy of defending his position is utterly crossing the line. I mean what sense did that possibly make? It's not even so much that I find religion or religious people as such annoying. It doesn't have much to do with that at all. It's that I never believed religion has anything to do with Free Software yet some people just keep pounding that connotation right into those who defend a particular opinion with a decent amount of conviction, and as this shows, even when there is no *strong conviction* as well. So what else am I supposed to think about such statements than that they are designed to discredit, because, you know, when somebody is religious about something pertaining software, he must be a bit wacko and worth dismissing. The thing is, I don't care whether that is true or not because I DO NOT think software has anything to do with religion! So, again WHY do we keep hearing that meme being used over and over again, if not as a FUD attempt??? |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 9:01 AM EDT |
>Java sucks Aye, captain, it does. I remain impressed by enterprise types who are sold on Java, even as their java applications grow bulkier and more expensive to maintain without ever becoming something that reasonable people would call good. Not surprised, mind you. After all, it's enterprise types who do stupid things like standardize on the Exchange server. Stupid here, stupid there, stupid everywhere. |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 9:02 AM EDT |
>You should apologize. Not to me. This thread was intentionally tweaky, meaning he who is tweaked need not apologize for tweakiness. |
| Libervis Sep 13, 2007 9:06 AM EDT |
Dinotrac, you ask me if I'm feeling vulnerable. Of course the very question has a hidden implication about me, which is why I said it doesn't make sense. But I'll tell you what I feel. I feel sick and tired of bumping into the same old FUD when trying to have a decent discussion about something related to Free Software. We talk, we disagree and we disagree some more but sometimes keep going before we both believe we have something more to add and then what happens.. boom... "you're incapable of being reasonable because you are obviously religious about this" ... The wording changes, but it's always the same old thing. So tell me, how am I supposed to have a reasonable conversation when presented with such a nonsensical anti-argument? It's literally a show stopper. It's a sign that the one I'm conversing with will stoop to levels below normal conversation. So excuse me if I just can't take that calmly anymore! |
| Libervis Sep 13, 2007 9:10 AM EDT |
dinotrac:Quoting:This thread was intentionally tweaky, meaning he who is tweaked need not apologize for tweakiness. Yes, but it wasn't all just in good fun. It had a target, and those targeted well know who they are, just as you do. That isn't just "tweaky", it is simply unfair and anti-social. You can't hope to do something like that and expect everyone to join your laughing bandwagon. All things considered, the way you come across to me is as often reasonable and very intelligent, yet abusive of those traits and manipulative. I'm sorry for that. |
| hchaudh1 Sep 13, 2007 9:13 AM EDT |
I would like to defend all the "enterprisey" developers out here because I am one. It always amazes me how a lot of the people out here just dismiss devs like us. Given we don't work on cool, "Look mom, I am done with a blog generation software in 10 minutes" type apps. But a lot goes into running all those big old iron boxes with all their legacy code, wayyy too many interlinked systems and streams of data, disparate technologies and all of that. I have met a lot of brilliant people in such settings and no, its not that they are all uncool, suit/tie wearing pointy haired types, just good coders who happen to work on a very different set of problems. OK, maybe not a lot, but still many are. So, say what you may, I will always defend my enterprisey brethren (or sistern). BTW, I think Java is an extremely good platform (notice I said platform and not language). |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 9:15 AM EDT |
>Stop this religious connotation nonsense man, even MS dropped it long time ago already. Now Abe, you really must consider the context. I am not talking about FOSS being religious in nature. That's just silly. The mono discussion of the last few days has been a strange mix of fact, reason, and who knows what. People who argue for choice any other time are asked why we need choice here. People brought up java, which, in my mind, should get tax-exempt status as a religious cult. It is, of course, merely my opinion, but much -- not all -- of the discussion took on the tone of fearful fundamentalism -- clinging fearfully and irrationally to your dogma no matter what the facts may show, even to the point of losing faith with your god. And I say that as a person of faith. In recent weeks, it has come out that even the revered Mother Theresa struggled with her faith, questioning the existence of God. That's what real faith is. If God is there, learning more will only get you closer to Him. If he's not, the faith is misplaced anyway. Some people seem to have more faith in the power of Microsoft than in the power of free software. Those people should be buying tickets for the ClueTrain. If Microsoft could crush free software, it would have done so before now. Instead, free software is growing, growing, growing, while Microsoft is findint it's Vistas severely limited. |
| Libervis Sep 13, 2007 9:20 AM EDT |
Quoting:It is, of course, merely my opinion, but much -- not all -- of the discussion took on the tone of fearful fundamentalism -- clinging fearfully and irrationally to your dogma no matter what the facts may show, even to the point of losing faith with your god. And I say that as a person of faith. There's just one problem. Not everyone (far from it) agrees with that opinion (I've even numerous times said I do not stand by my current position unchangingly), yet you act as if your opinion constitutes as a fact while formally saying that it is just your opinion. Because of that you find it OK to laugh and throw around questionable connotations at those you disagree with. Newsflash, there is more to world than Dinotrac. |
| hchaudh1 Sep 13, 2007 9:30 AM EDT |
@dinotrac I don't know much about all that faith stuff (and Mother Teresa! Where was that from?) you said up there, don't really care. But I think the problem with leaving things to faith (or fate) is that by the time, truth wins, there's someone else coming over the horizon to screw you over. I would like to ask though? Why should Java get a tax exempt status of a religious cult? Just asking because maybe I am in the wrong business here. Feeds my family wonderfully though. Maybe you should open the doors to the infinite wisdom that you withhold that so many here are bereft of. And no, just saying people who happen to be working in a company that uses Java as a technology are mindless corporate drones dosen't quite cut it for me. I get it, Java is old and Ruby is oh so cool and dandy, but still, I have yet to see a platform that can do 50% of what Java does (not trying to diss anyone here, but I really think so). Its about the targeted problem, not many many floats you can turn per second. |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 9:31 AM EDT |
hchaudh1 - Nobody needs to defend enterprise developers around here. I worked in Fortune 500 shops for years (heck -- Fortune 1 at one time) and nothing but the utmost respect for them. It's the bosses I wonder about. >I think Java is an extremely good platform And you could very well be right. The java projects I've seen have not impressed me, but I can be a tad harsh. You may have noticed! |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 9:39 AM EDT |
>Why should Java get a tax exempt status of a religious cult? Just asking because maybe I am in the wrong business here. It may be different where you work, but I've found that Java people seem to speak their own language. Really jarring sometimes. As a former lawyer, I still haven't gotten used to people discussing contracts in a development context. I've also noticed that Java tends to evangelize and creep and grow. We have java, therefore you should have java and all of our systems should have java. We should become a veritable information Starbucks. At least the techs know what they're talking about. Some managers seem to think java is the corporate IT Messiah. Same thing for .Net where it's the preferred flavor. Mind you, I say this all tongue in cheek. I am not and have but barely ever been a java developer. I am in no way qualified to make a technical assessment of java. Maybe my "love" for C++ (not the language so much as C++ gurus utterly determined to demonstrate their mastery of the magic) is spilling over. After all, applied technology is a combination of technical + human factors. |
| jdixon Sep 13, 2007 9:51 AM EDT |
> "Some of us", yes, not all of us. You should note, Libervis, that I'm one of those people Dino targeted with his comments. Dino knows that I have absolutely no use for Mono or Moonlight. He also knows that I trust Microsoft as far as I can throw their headquarters. He probably even thinks I'm being irrational on the matter. He may even be correct. Not all decisions need to or should be made using logic and reason alone however. Microsoft is not to be trusted, and their olive branches are likely entwined with poison ivy. I don't need logic or reason to determine that, only knowledge of Microsoft's past history. |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 10:04 AM EDT |
>I don't need logic or reason to determine that, only knowledge of Microsoft's past history. Ah ha!!! Smoked you out, you High Priest of anti-Billism! |
| Abe Sep 13, 2007 10:06 AM EDT |
Quoting:That's uncalled for, Abe. Yes, Dino can be a bit caustic, but he doesn't deserve that, and tracyanne has been fairly civil in her disagreements. You should apologize. No need for an apology, Dino and Tracyanne (I hope) know that wasn't a serious comment and I know better to be serious about it. But if it makes you feel better, I apologize. Mind you, that doesn't make their arguments better or have any validity, in my opinion of course. |
| hchaudh1 Sep 13, 2007 10:08 AM EDT |
I think I agree with you on this. I have seen a lot of big company devs are not very competent. I think its more because usually these companies send their COBOL/Delphi programmers on a month long training and have this notion that suddenly they will be kick ass programmers, which is simply not true. Mostly what I have noticed is that, in a team, there are a couple of good programmers which lead a few not so good programmers. I am not complaining as long as people follow certain guidelines and have code reviews. Legacy code is a different thing alltogether. I think I know what you mean when you say "discussing contracts in a development context". I think its because with Java (as with any other FOSS platform), the choices are immense. Just look at the choices we have for XML parsing alone. And each comes with its pros and cons, development times, impact on further design etc. Its never as simple as, "I want to transform this XML file into this other format ASAP" which might be true for some other platforms. So yeah, while it sucks, its not that devs do this because they are incompetent or pushing an agenda. You lay out the choices with their respective weights and see what the client decides. It is easier on platforms where there is not much choice, or things are locked down tight, not so with Java or FOSS in general. Plus, another thing that bears on contracts a lot is the competency and knowledge of the dev team itself. If they are good in Java but not e.g. XSLT, do your transforms in Java (which takes time because XML parsing is not a native functionality of Java). But if you have a good XSLT guy on board, your dev times are cut down immensely. And I know what you are talking about evangelizing a programming language. Techs will always do that. Look at the time spent on threads here or /. etc. That's why a good business team is essential to lock down the requirements, SLA's etc. A bad business analyst will screw the project and the team and I speak from experience. |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 10:09 AM EDT |
>But if it makes you feel better, I apologize. You mean there AREN'T any checks coming in the mail? Darn. |
| jdixon Sep 13, 2007 10:10 AM EDT |
> ...you High Priest of anti-Billism! Only a lowly wayward follower, Dino. I've never aspired to the priesthood. :) |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 10:15 AM EDT |
hc - Very cool discussion. I only wish I were that smart. I was actually referring to contracts as in Design by Contract, which, upon further investigation, is not even a native java construct. Curses!! |
| hchaudh1 Sep 13, 2007 10:28 AM EDT |
Aaahhh...ok. :-P If you mean locking down the design before development starts, I don't think that is a problem with Java folks alone. Yeah, it is a bit of a mixed bag. It makes sense sometimes considering that these big company projects usually deal with multiple systems and teams and design and SLA's have to be hashed out before any actual work can start. But as long as they don't dictate technology and coding practices and just stick to their interfaces etc., I am cool with that. |
| hchaudh1 Sep 13, 2007 10:29 AM EDT |
But I don't get why is that not a Java construct. Design by contract is the reason why we have interfaces and abstract classes etc. Or maybe I am missing something big time here. |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 10:30 AM EDT |
>Only a lowly wayward follower, Dino. I've never aspired to the priesthood. :) So modest today!! |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 10:31 AM EDT |
>But I don't get why is that not a Java construct. Design by contract is the reason why we have interfaces and abstract classes etc. Sorry, I wasn't clear. That is not a construct unique to Java. As I understand (only after Googling), it originated in Eiffel. |
| Abe Sep 13, 2007 11:09 AM EDT |
Quoting:You mean there AREN'T any checks coming in the mail?Nope, and you might as well forget about the sun tan you were going to get while at the conference in sunny Aruba. |
| dinotrac Sep 13, 2007 11:23 AM EDT |
>Nope, and you might as well forget about the sun tan you were going to get while at the conference in sunny Aruba. I am SO depressed now. |
| tracyanne Sep 13, 2007 2:03 PM EDT |
Christ this thread has meandered on. I like the bit about the cheques, I'd actually like one or two for my advocacy of Linux, elsewhere. |
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