Damnng with Faint Praise again.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Bob_Robertson Sep 06, 2007 6:54 AM EDT |
"Oh, I would stop using Windows tomorrow, but I just _can't_! It's so _painful_! There are so many things I cannot _do_!" Now show me an CIO that has been handed a preliminary report by an energetic staffer saying in effect, "Dump Windows", who reads these "switching to Linux, or trying to anyway" articles. Were I CIO, I would be completely put off. "Gee, not ready yet." Best FUD money can buy. |
| dinotrac Sep 06, 2007 6:58 AM EDT |
So Bob, are you saying that people shouldn't try to wean themselves from Windows, or that they shouldn't care what happens to the business when they try? I know that my wife cannot presently do her job without Windows. I also know that her employer could, by investing time and money, end that dependence. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 06, 2007 7:41 AM EDT |
Hahaha, Dino. It's taken a while, a sadly long while, but I have come to the conclusion that you really are not trying to pick fights. How about this: "Bob, how else would you suggest writing about the problems of switching to Linux from Windows?" Let's see. First things first, I would start with the successes rather than the problems. I would outline where and how things improved. For instance, changing from MS-Office to OOo: Less formatting problems and learning curve than changing to a new version of MS-Office, and now the file formats are open and we won't have the problems opening them that we have had when documents created with older versions of Office are no longer supported. Since OOo runs on ever OS we have, even those users who still have legacy applications that must run on Windows can get all the benefits of OOo. Or hardware: When the time came to consider PC software, we knew we would have to change out the hardware also. But using Linux rather than Windows we have all the benefits of the latest software and most recent security fixes, but without having to change out any hardware at all. Etc. Just like "Gee, we turned up this web server in no time at all, on hardware we already had sitting around" stories from 1998. Ya see, even in my glowing positive story, I freely admit that there are people who use Windows because the software they need only runs on Windows. But I do not call that normal and then talk about the abberations where F/OSS was able, by some miracle, to fit all my needs without trying. > I know that my wife cannot presently do her job without Windows. I also know that her employer could, by investing time and money, end that dependence. It has occurred to me that "Windows" is secondary. People use applications, and what those applications run on defines what OS is going to be used. So what really concerns me is why "her employer" isn't using OOo rather than MS-Office, &etc. How about when someone says they need to do something, the question is first "Have you attempted to use the F/OSS applications that do that" rather than "Do you have the application license price in your budget?" The vast majority of already installed Windows-based PCs have no need to be replaced. What needs to be up to date are the applications, and that can be done without new hardware just to run new Vista, just because someone wants to run new Office. I enjoy "Moved to Linux" stories. What I don't like are "Oh, I would move to Linux, but gee, then I'd have to get out of my chair" stories. |
| number6x Sep 06, 2007 7:56 AM EDT |
Linux does not have the feature that CEO's count on most in Windows. You know the one, where they hold their laptop over their head and shake it vigorously to reset the screen? I'm sure you have seen the PHB in Dilbert make use of this advanced patented feature. Until Linux can implement ease of use on this level, it will not be ready for the enterprise. Excuse me, my boss has just gotten their mine sweeper window under their solitaire window and is calling me to straighten things out. I have to go. |
| dinotrac Sep 06, 2007 8:02 AM EDT |
> I enjoy "Moved to Linux" stories. What I don't like are "Oh, I would move to Linux, but gee, then I'd have to get out of my chair" stories. What I'd really enjoy are "You can move to Linux" stories. I'm not sure exactly what they'd look like, but I'm convinced that a lot of companies who "can't", not only could, but should. They would have to make some realistic assessments, starting with efforts to get a handle on what Windows and Windows based applications is really costing them. They would try to rank order the difficulties and cull out the red-herrings. They would not shy away from real problems, like software Windows-only software from outside vendors for which no acceptable non-Windows substitute is available. They would point out hidden benefits that don't show up in the business, but valuable to the company. My favorite reasonably recent example was a story on the Christian Science Monitor's switch to Linux. From an article by Jack Loftus on searchopensource.com: Quoting: With open source however, it is the developer's neck on the line, and therefore a new breed of employee had to be introduced that would default to investigating the solution to a problem as opposed to picking up a phone to find someone to blame, Edge said. What a lovely thing: Yeah, it ain't all that easy, but you get something for your trouble, and that something benefits your business. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 06, 2007 10:09 AM EDT |
It's easy to talk about educated developers, since the source is open and available to learn from. I hadn't actually linked it to "educated support staff". One thing I've liked about F/OSS: If I fix it once, I can fix it again. With Windows, it seemed as if it was a dice-roll. What worked to fix a problem today might very well not work tomorrow. |
| dinotrac Sep 06, 2007 10:12 AM EDT |
> With Windows, it seemed as if it was a dice-roll. That's the difference between being able to get at and understand the problem and being forced to scatter-shoot until you come up with something that works. My year as a technical writer made me appreciate how much the users of Microsoft Office really work at it. Not only do they learn the things they can reasonably be expected to learn, but they build a catalog of don't do that's and "try this"'s to work around all the bugs and, um, undocumented features. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 06, 2007 10:53 AM EDT |
> they build a catalog of don't do that's and "try this"'s to work around all the bugs and, um, undocumented features. Of such shared experiences are "culture" and "society" made. Something like the English Common Law, I would say. |
| NoDough Sep 06, 2007 11:49 AM EDT |
Quoting:One thing I've liked about F/OSS: If I fix it once, I can fix it again. With Windows, it seemed as if it was a dice-roll. What worked to fix a problem today might very well not work tomorrow.Actually, I've had (sort of) the opposite experience. Windows systems require me to baby-sit them daily. The fixes are usually fresh in my mind because I have to do them so often. Linux systems, OTOH, may require me to study a solution in order to implement it properly. Then it just works without needing my attention, sometimes for years. When a change is (finally) required, I've forgotten what I did to get it working in the first place. On a slight change of topic; My work is a Microsoft shop. Somewhere between 15 and 20% of my time is spent dealing with licensing issues. Furthermore, implementing solutions is often delayed by days or weeks while I wait on license keys to arrive. This is really not where I want to spend my time. My employer is contemplating a switch from MS Office 2003 to OO.o. There are several factors making this attractive to them (with my input, of course.) 1) Cost: MS Office 2003 licenses cost between $150/seat and $300/seat. OO.o cost is $0/seat. 2) Admin: Zero time dealing with, or delayed because of, licensing issues with OO.o. 3) Training: MS Office 2007 has a completely different interface than MS Office 2003. Also, it has a different default file format. This means our conversion must be wholesale, and our users must be re-trained. If we _must_ throw stone 3, why not kill birds 1 and 2 while we are at it? |
| mvermeer Sep 06, 2007 12:02 PM EDT |
> What I'd really enjoy are "You can move to Linux" stories. Yes! But more than that, "You can do better with free software" stories. I've moved lots of people to Firefox already, and a few to OOo. Much of the satisfaction is in registering the surprise that something that good can be that free, and the slight anger at having been kept in the dark for so long. Many people / companies could switch to Linux 100%. But lots more even can make a partial switch to some half-way station. We shouldn't underestimate that. Use OOo, FF and TB, and you're already almost there -- who knows what an OS is anyway ;-) Main thing is breaking through psychologically. |
| NoDough Sep 06, 2007 12:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:...the surprise that something that good can be that free...Heh. I remember the first time my brother saw Linux. He said, "THIS is FREE?!" That was in 1997. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 06, 2007 12:24 PM EDT |
Since I re-read _In The Beginning Was The Command Line_ by Neil Stephenson recently, I can pull something he said out of thin air here. He said he had written down every one of his "troubleshooting" sessions in notebooks. He had some 3 or 4 notebooks _full_ of fixes and such. I wonder how many "HowTos" were written because someone realized that if they didn't write it down they would forget later? (as opposed to a conscious decision at the start) > If we _must_ throw stone 3, why not kill birds 1 and 2 while we are at it? A perfectly logical and effective way of looking at it, and as an engineer I'm completely convinced to give it a try just from that. After all, if it blows up, you can always just go buy Office2007 anyway. But does it convince the boss? My immediate question for you is, have you given him/her a copy of OOo to try out? What do they personally think of it? |
| dinotrac Sep 06, 2007 12:43 PM EDT |
>If we _must_ throw stone 3, why not kill birds 1 and 2 while we are at it? There are some other issues that may or may not apply to you: 1. Do you exchange documents with the outside world that must be completely accurate in their presentation? This does happen, but it is incredibly rare. Even legal documents allow a certain amount of discretion. Besides, even Office will only give you identical results if you have all of the fonts installed, haven't mucked with templates and macros, are using the same version, etc, etc. 2. Do you make heavy use of Excel? Excel really is a good spreadsheat and the spreadsheet is OO's weakest link. 3. Do you exchange things with the outside world that are macro intensive? Internal documents with macros can be revised once, but ongoing exchanges can be a problem. |
| jdixon Sep 06, 2007 2:51 PM EDT |
> So what really concerns me is why "her employer" isn't using OOo rather than MS-Office, &etc. Well, it's not just Office. In a typical business of more than average size, there's business planning software, human resources software, accounting software, customer relations software, intranet websites, etc.; all of which are built to interface with Windows, IE, and Office and won't work with OpenOffice or Firefox. |
| Sander_Marechal Sep 06, 2007 2:57 PM EDT |
Quoting:Linux does not have the feature that CEO's count on most in Windows. You make it sound so funny, but there's a hidden truth in there. With Windows you can hard reboot and 8 times out of 10 your problem goes away (but even then you end up with at least 2 new problems that *won't* go away every day). With Linux, rebooting has usually no effect. You're really going to have to fix it. |
| tuxchick Sep 06, 2007 3:04 PM EDT |
This whole "must exchange digital files with other users so we are stuck with MS Office" business is a big fat red herring. If they're inside your company, then put everyone on OOoooo or KOffice. Problem solved. They make it sound like random strangers with very complex Word docs or Excel spreadsheets all full of custom VB macros are sending them files- for what purpose? this part is never explained- and demanding 100% fidelity through whatever mysterious acts are perpetrated upon the files. As if. What happens in the real world is poorly-trained lusers are composing two-line emails in MS Word and then attaching .doc files to Outlook messages. Or writing Web pages in Word, or using Excel as a database, or using Publisher to make "pretty" business letters. It's nuts. The vast majority of this crud will translate to ODF easily. For the rest- well, better keep some copies of MS Office around for awhile, and work on a long-term migration plan. There is a problem with digital archives, though again it's overstated. Most of them could be deleted unexamined, and no one would ever care. And, as has been said so often already, MS doesn't even maintain compatibility with itself, so those archives are already at risk. So why stick with MS? Even FOSS advocates don't understand what's really going on, and don't know how to counteract the stupid stuff. |
| rijelkentaurus Sep 06, 2007 5:06 PM EDT |
Quoting: Linux systems, OTOH, may require me to study a solution in order to implement it properly. Then it just works without needing my attention, sometimes for years. When a change is (finally) required, I've forgotten what I did to get it working in the first place. Heaven forbid you document your procedures.....oh, okay, sometimes I'm guilty of it too, so I can't toss a stone at you for it. However, the argument is indicative of bad administration practices, not some grand difference between the OSes. I agree on the licensing issues, and not only with MS, but with supporting software such as antivirus or backup software. Licensing+time for me to license it+time for me to register it+time for me to install it+time for me to troubleshoot the crappy install+time for me to configure it==mucho $$$$$$$$. I think it's so funny that installation of an entire OS with software in Linux takes about as much time as formatting a disc in Windows...and time is money, whether a client is paying for it or your own company is paying for it. |
| NoDough Sep 06, 2007 5:13 PM EDT |
Quoting:But does it convince the boss? My immediate question for you is, have you given him/her a copy of OOo to try out? What do they personally think of it?Didn't have to with my boss. He had already tried it and was convinced it could do the job in all but the most extreme cases. There is, however, a higher up that will have to be convinced. Quoting:1. Do you exchange documents with the outside world that must be completely accurate in their presentation?Yes, but our policy for years has been to exchange documents in PDF format. So, no problem there. No exchange of macro or VBA documents occurs. Quoting:2. Do you make heavy use of Excel?We have identified 2 spreadsheets that will require some work. These are the only two documents (which we have found) that make use of VBA. Also, there is one VBScript that uses COM objects to extract data from existing Excel spreadsheets and build a new spreadsheet. This will have to be rewritten. Quoting:3. Do you exchange things with the outside world that are macro intensive? Internal documents with macros can be revised once, but ongoing exchanges can be a problem.No. |
| NoDough Sep 06, 2007 5:30 PM EDT |
Quoting:...the argument is indicative of bad administration practices...Perhaps. However, the configuration is documented. It's the knowledge of the program's function that I tend to forget. Therefore, how to reconfigure the program to affect some new behavior requires me to re-educate myself. Also, I'm certain that being in my forties has no connection with my recall problems. 8^> |
| azerthoth Sep 06, 2007 5:44 PM EDT |
Just think NoDough, in a few years you'll be able to hide your own Easter Eggs too. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 06, 2007 6:33 PM EDT |
Oh please, don't talk like 40s is "getting on", I have enough worries about age. The first thing I noticed is that my toes hurt. Now an x-ray has shown the beginnings of arthritis in my left knee, and the specialist is convinced that the cartilage (or ligament, as long as she knows the difference I don't have to) is cracked and going to need to be welded back together. If this is 44, what the $%^&* is 66 going to look like? Will I have to sell my motorcycle? |
| dinotrac Sep 06, 2007 7:07 PM EDT |
>Also, I'm certain that being in my forties has no connection with my recall problems. 8^> I was in my 40s once. I don't think losing your memory is a big problem, but, to be honest, I can't recall. |
| Igor Sep 06, 2007 11:00 PM EDT |
I've stopped using any flavor of MS Windows back in 96/97... and I do not regret. Yessss, I do more than just browsing or reading e-mail... a lot more... for example , I do IC design |
| gus3 Sep 06, 2007 11:26 PM EDT |
Quoting:With Linux, rebooting has usually no effect. You're really going to have to fix it.When my mom asked for a Linux system for Christmas: "What will you do when it crashes, and I won't be around to fix it?" "I know it won't crash as often as Windows." She got her Christmas wish. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 07, 2007 3:02 PM EDT |
My Mom takes delivery of her new Linux laptop next week. :^) |
| jacog Sep 09, 2007 1:01 AM EDT |
My wife uses it at home too, but perhaps just due to my influence. She just started working on a screenplay using a great open source screenwriting tool called Celtx. |
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