Perhaps I Should Change My Wallpaper To MS-Linux
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| Author | Content |
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| zenarcher Jun 09, 2007 4:54 PM EDT |
"Are you helping them establish an umbrella Linux distribution made up of all the Linux distros signing up to be a part of their ‘protection’? If so, congratulations on buying your new Microsoft Linux. Have fun over there with Novell, Xandros, LG, and whoever else believes the vaporous and non existing threats from a callow company trying to keep itself meaningful. For myself, my family, my friends, and my distribution...we shall never pay any company that brokers this patent protection deal with Microsoft...you can take that to the bank." Perhaps these agreements will end up creating Linux and MS-Linux, I don't know. But here's just a personal view from someone who uses Linux exclusively (or perhaps MS-Linux). And, I would guess that I'm not the only Linux user who loves Linux but isn't a pro at using it (even after two years). It's at least something to think about. With at least the last three versions of SUSE....and to a slightly lesser degree with Fedora, I stick a disk in my DVD drive, follow a simple install, which allows me to add several proprietary packages which make life easier, with little effort. Likewise, I've always found it easy to add a couple of third party repositories such as Packman and Guru...and have everything I am used to having and being able to do what I want with the computer. Fedora is pretty much the same....except a bit more difficult to get Java installed and a few other packages. In a short time, I'm ready to go and comfortable with what I have. On the other hand, four different times and versions of the highly acclaimed and "simple to use Ubuntu" have left me with nothing but disappointment. I've yet to figured out how to easily get everything I need. I wouldn't even consider trying Debian or some of the other distros, as I'd be completely lost. I have no doubt that I'd be weeks, if not months, trying to find proprietary packages I consider to be essential for my purposes, after installing one of the "pure" distros. Okay, I suppose a real Linux "purist" would say that I'm not very smart, if I can't figure it out or figure out how to get around using proprietary software. Maybe so. But, I'm not alone in the world. And new Linux users will come from a pool of people just like me....people looking for a real alternative to MS Windows, offering a secure and stable O/S environment.....and it seems that these "MS Linux" distros offer that. We're people looking for something usable, without having to become programmers and developers. I've installed SUSE and Fedora for several "average Windows" users and switched them over to Linux. Why? Because it was easy to include most everything, short of games, which allowed them to do everything they were used to doing with Windows....less the spyware, virus and BSOD experiences. They tend to find YAST and SMART easy to use, once I've set up a few repositories for them. Anyway, freedom is wonderful and one of the wonderful aspects of Linux. Purists have the freedom to avoid all proprietary applications, work around issues with purely open source software and avoid any company making deals with Microsoft or anyone else. Likewise, freedom also offers the average person distributions providing a simple means to do what they want, proprietary or otherwise. People who just want an easy to use Linux distro and aren't involved with the politics of it. I have no doubt that many LInux people will take exception with my position, just as many will find SUSE easy to install and use. |
| jdixon Jun 09, 2007 5:10 PM EDT |
> I have no doubt that I'd be weeks, if not months, trying to find proprietary packages I consider to be essential for my purposes, after installing one of the "pure" distros. Hint, Google is your friend. Almost any problem with proprietary packages has been found and solved by someone before, and the answers are almost always a quick Google search away. > On the other hand, four different times and versions of the highly acclaimed and "simple to use Ubuntu" have left me with nothing but disappointment... Well, you're probably not the only one. But as several people here will be happy to tell (in exquisite detail if you want), Ubuntu is not the best newbie distribution out there. :) Try PCLinuxOS, Mepis, or Blag if you want a quick, easy to use distro. That said, it doesn't sound like you've tried automatix (http://www.getautomatix.com/). Check it out before you give up on Ubuntu and Debian. > the last three versions of SUSE....and to a slightly lesser degree with Fedora... and it seems that these "MS Linux" distros offer that. While it's fair to refer to SuSE (yes, I prefer the old spelling) in that manner, Fedora is sponsored by Red Hat, and they've repulsed Microsoft's advances to date. > Anyway, freedom is wonderful and one of the wonderful aspects of Linux. Absolutely correct. It's your computer, and your choice of distribution. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. |
| bigg Jun 09, 2007 5:42 PM EDT |
@ zenarcher: One thing that is strange about your post is that Fedora is a "purist" distribution. The only thing keeping the FSF from promoting it is that there are a few items that are open but technically not "free software." On Fedora, opensuse (I hate weird capitalizations so it gets all lower case), or Debian, it's simply a matter of adding the right repository. Ubuntu is even easier than that. If you click on a link needing a non-free codec, for instance, it will ask if you want to install the codec and then install. There is also Automatix2 for Ubuntu and Debian. You are free to install whatever you want, but I don't really see much difference in the distributions on this dimension. |
| r_a_trip Jun 09, 2007 9:02 PM EDT |
MS-Linux is not about the ease of use of a distribution. It is about being free of the shackles that MS provides for its "customers". These empty and shady patent deals have nothing to do with the software, but with forcing the same shackles on GNU/Linux users (at least they try to do this). That is what anybody with love for the GNU/Linux OS is objecting to. Being easy to use is not even part of the current uproar or do you think current GNU/Linux distributions are easy to use because MS had something to do with it? |
| bigg Jun 09, 2007 9:23 PM EDT |
> forcing the same shackles on GNU/Linux users (at least they try to do this) They can try, but software licensed under the GPL will always be under the GPL. They want to bully corporate Linux customers into paying to avoid a lawsuit. If someone were blackmailing me, I'd at least ask what pictures they've got. Of course, we're in the strange position where the blackmailer is paying the blackmailee to accept being blackmailed, without admitting to any wrongdoing, or even knowing what was the crime, so it's not so easy to follow. |
| devnet Jun 09, 2007 9:46 PM EDT |
r_a_trip hit the nail on the head. Being outside of the Umbrella that is MS. |
| zenarcher Jun 10, 2007 1:37 AM EDT |
I realize that Fedora is essentially pure, while SUSE is under fire for their MS deal. I used them as examples, since they are the two distros I find to install and work quite easily, while providing everything I want and need in a simple manner. Long ago, I used Mandriva (Mandrake at that time), but found both Fedora and SUSE more suitable for my wants and purposes. My real point wasn't as clear as I would have liked to have made it, I don't think. That point being that while purists will avoid any distro making agreements with MS, average people....new to Linux, for the most part, are going to choose distros which are easy to install, easily provide the proprietary applications they want and most likely aren't going to be concerned with the politics of the matter. Therefore, if the pure distros move ahead with new users, they are going to have to be much more "new user friendly." I've looked at some of the supposed "easy" distros (PXLinuxOS and such, but have just not been all that impressed....just personal preference, I suppose.) I do use Google extensively for help, as well as forums and have likewise found the SUSE and Fedora forums to be very user friendly. Incidentally, I tried automatix on three different occasions and completely hosed the installation. I've not experienced that behavior when adding solid repos such as Packman, Guru and the like, using SMART or KYum. |
| r_a_trip Jun 10, 2007 6:18 AM EDT |
Zenarcher, I understand what you are saying. It is a common way of thinking for a lot of people. ---* I just use what is convenient for me. I'll let others deal with the politics *--- There is only one problem with that way of thinking. GNU/Linux as an alternative only exists, because a lot of people understood that they had to resist the pressure to abandon their core principals. They got political and they saw the value of being "pure". If you don't care for the F/OSS tenets and don't protect them with your personal efforts, you'll lose the benefits that you now got from them. Once MS has all distributors locked in their patent deals, they will step up their efforts to control the future direction of GNU/Linux. If you and all other newcomers don't protect F/OSS, be prepared to face DRM, product activation, Linux Genuine Advantage schemes, per seat licensing, per application purchasing costs (you don't think OpenOffice.org will stay bundled for free, do you?), and an MS tax on all purchased new computers. Once again MS controls all aspects of computing, you don't have any place else to go and the diabolical beauty in all of this is that MS achieved it all with software they didn't even write. So are you going to be part of the problem or part of the solution? |
| zenarcher Jun 10, 2007 6:32 AM EDT |
I understand what you're saying. My point here is that new people coming to Linux more than likely don't understand it, nor are they going to delve into tech forums to learn about it. They just want something which is going to be easy to install and make the necessary packages easily available so the system will do what they want it to do. If the pure Linux distros don't figure out how to do that, there will be a large MS Linux base. I have the luxury of being able to read and search pretty much anything I choose, since I'm retired. Likewise, as a former professional journalist, I'm reasonable adept at searching out information. Not every computer user has that option. As I say, I've built many computers and switched many Windows diehards to Linux in the past couple of years....but I don't think a one of them really has a concept of FOSS nor the direction of GNU/Linux. Further....I don't think they really care. They are merely happy to have a stable and reasonably secure O/S on their computers. Until the problems being faced reach mainstream readers, rather than battled on tech forums and tech news.....I don't think much will change with "Mr. & Mrs. Average Computer User." They will take the simple route, whatever that may be. |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 6:33 AM EDT |
>So are you going to be part of the problem or part of the solution? There's a lovely empty phrase. Empty because it depends so much as what you view to be the problem and what you view to be the solution. I think many a self-styled friend of FOSS jumped into the problem category over the Novell deal. They, of course, would view me the same way. |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 6:39 AM EDT |
zenarcher - Never feel like you must apologize for doing something friendly to free software. Think of it like battlefield medicine. First you do triage. No matter what the ultimate treatment, you must stop the bleeding and get the wounded to safety. For free software, you must first get them in the door. |
| zenarcher Jun 10, 2007 6:59 AM EDT |
Thanks for the comments, dinotrac. Yes, if I find a friend or customer (I do a bit of computer work from home), frustrated with Windows, I let them play with one of my Linux boxes and do what I can to switch them over. Of course, the first question is always, "Can I do everything with it I can do with Windows?" Well, no....not really....but again, many things are also much easier for me with Linux. There are tradeoffs and I imagine there always will be. Often, I'll start them out with a dual boot setup and many have asked me to remove Windows after some time. I've just found that SUSE is pretty comfortable for most of them to use....MS agreements or not. Personally, I play with a lot of distros. Currently, my main system runs SUSE 10.2. Between my wife and myself, we have five computers running in this house. My wife is absolutely non-technical and hates change of any kind. But, she's very comfortable with SUSE. I do maintain one Windows XP system, only because I need it. About all it's used for is updating and working with maps for my Garmin GPS, which cannot be done with Linux. Likewise, my wife has a couple of games on the Windows box, because she won't give them up. I started using MS with DOS 5.0 and only wish I had started with Linux long, long ago. The past couple of years have been a real learning experience, but the effort has been well worth it. |
| r_a_trip Jun 10, 2007 7:03 AM EDT |
I now see where you are coming from Zenarcher. You are aware of the problem, but you see the newcomers are not aware, which is true. Newbies can not be bothered with the "why" of things, they are having trouble enough as it is with the "what" of things. That is why experienced GNU/Linux users must use their knowledge to steer newbies clear of potential pitfalls. This includes steering them away from solutions that hold the potential to lock them to MS again. Dinotrac, all phrases are lovely empty when you ignore the context in which they are given. The problem here is MS trying to divide and conquer. Anyone supporting weak distributors who sign patent protection deals are part of the problem. Anyone abandoning those distributors are at least making the point clear that such deals are not wanted. Maybe not the end all be all solution, but at least better than just throwing the towel into the ring. |
| devnet Jun 10, 2007 7:27 AM EDT |
Imagine this scenario... You're a small distro maker who has an up and coming distribution. You have a day job where you do job X from 8-5pm everyday. When you get home, you ramp up your bandwidth by developing your distro. Microsoft approaches you and offers you patent protection from being sued....since you have about 2 thousand dollars in the bank, no time, a family, and only 2-3 computers...the type of money they're offering is a huge amount. You could develop that distro for 3-5 years on that type of cash and even make a 64bit version...it's enough to get by for quite some time. So, what's to prevent this person from taking that money? What happens when money is thrown at a problem (linux) by MS? I'll tell you something...whenever we had a problem in business and we threw money at it...the problem didn't go away. It just got bigger. There is no difference here. No matter what MS does, the problem won't vanish. Linux has the upper hand in this instance...but the community can choose to help MS throw money at distros by not caring...or do the opposite. It's up to them. |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 7:42 AM EDT |
>.but the community can choose to help MS throw money at distros by not caring...or do the opposite. It's up to them. Hmmm.... Let's look at this rationally.. It sounds like you are saying that moving great hunks of money from Microsoft's pockets to the pockets of Linux distros -- a move that cannot alter the terms of the GPL or any other free license -- is a bad thing. I find that hard to accept. |
| Libervis Jun 10, 2007 7:46 AM EDT |
Maybe the "why" of things can give you the motivation to pursue the "what" of things. You make good posts here r_a_trip. When you really value freedom then you see clearly what may shackle it and what may not, which is why those who value freedom wont do deals with Microsoft nor would trap themselves with proprietary software of any kind. And you value it because you love it, because you are free and don't want to lose it, which is where the motivation comes from to get you over a few issues you may have with the freedom respecting software. But once you lose sight of that, you're easily manipulated into giving your freedoms up for whatever feels attractive enough at a given moment. |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 7:48 AM EDT |
>When you really value freedom then you see clearly what may shackle it and what may not, which is why those who value freedom wont do deals with Microsoft nor would trap themselves with proprietary software of any kind. What a bunch of crap. I value freedom very much. Microsoft doesn't value it in the least. If a big pile of money goes away from somebody who doesn't care about freedom to somebody who does, I would bet more freedom-enhancing activities are likely to take place. |
| Libervis Jun 10, 2007 7:50 AM EDT |
dinotrac:Quoting:It sounds like you are saying that moving great hunks of money from Microsoft's pockets to the pockets of Linux distros -- a move that cannot alter the terms of the GPL or any other free license -- is a bad thing. It depends on the purpose. Why was this money given and what are the implications you had to accept to accept the money? In reality which we are all witnessing, this money does not alter the terms of the GPL, but it does alter the mood of the community and the industry as a whole. It injects unfounded fear into it, still a very real disincentive to change for the better. |
| Libervis Jun 10, 2007 7:51 AM EDT |
dinotrac:Quoting:I value freedom very much. Microsoft doesn't value it in the least. Did I say you don't? Look at the big picture which included more than just the direction of the money flow and more than just you and your values. ;) |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 8:01 AM EDT |
>It depends on the purpose. Why was this money given and what are the implications you had to accept to accept the money? Implications don't bother me. Terms do. Heck -- I wish I could tell you how many times I've been called a shill for Microsoft as it is, and, believe me, I'm still waiting for that first check. I would never sign a deal that limited my ability to act freely and to support free software in any way I pleased. What others might imply is beyond my control. |
| Libervis Jun 10, 2007 8:38 AM EDT |
Dinotrac, I probably didn't read all your posts on LXer regarding these deals, but I find myself wondering whether you actually defend them or not? Anyway, terms matter most, for sure, but you can't ignore the implications that the terms carry if they are widely recognized and interpreted as a cause of a bad thing, which is in this case the inducement of unfounded fear. Implications may not matter sometimes, but it depends on the context. And in the context of these deals, Microsoft's only weapon are in fact exactly *implications*, not the real meat of the issue, because on the real things they would lose. They are fighting the war of abstracts which manifest themselves into invisible but very meaningful feelings, ones which affect the industry because they affect the decisions of those who have them, which include CEOs and ordinary windows users who don't know the ins and outs, see the headlines and draw their conclusions merely on the *implications* of those headlines. |
| Libervis Jun 10, 2007 8:42 AM EDT |
Quoting:Heck -- I wish I could tell you how many times I've been called a shill for Microsoft as it is, and, believe me, I'm still waiting for that first check. Just to be clear, I am not saying that as soon as someone receives money from Microsoft one is an MS shill. I am also not saying that every time there is a money flow from MS to GNU/Linux that it must be a bad thing. What I am saying is that we just have to consider the context and whether the implications involved can hurt the community or not, in addition to the terms and well.. amounts of cash. ;) |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 8:44 AM EDT |
>but I find myself wondering whether you actually defend them or not? I have no problem defending the Novell deal. I think they probably made a good choice for the company. And, under the GPL at the time, they were within the terms of the license. I am far less familiar with the Xandros and LG arrangements, so I don't have much to say about them. However, if they didn't have to make any more concessions than Novell did and made a pile of cash in the process, then I might be ok with them. The question for me would be how they keep going in light of V3. Maybe it's less of a problem in embedded land, though I don't know why that would be. One hope's LG's lawyers know what they're doing. As to Xandros, I didn't even know they were still in business. Perhaps they're just grabbing at a little cash before turning out the lights. If so, I'm ok with it. |
| jdixon Jun 10, 2007 9:44 AM EDT |
zenarcher: > I've looked at some of the supposed "easy" distros (PXLinuxOS and such, but have just not been all that impressed....just personal preference, I suppose.) Probably, yes. Preferences vary widely between users. After all, I use Slackware. :) > Incidentally, I tried automatix on three different occasions and completely hosed the installation. Well, that can happen, but you're in the minority. However, I can't argue with results. It sounds like SuSE and Fedora are best for you, and you'd best steer clear of Debian based distros. Have you tried Blag, which is based on Fedora? You can apparently find it at http://www.blagblagblag.org/ |
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 10, 2007 10:29 AM EDT |
While I have moral qualms that prevent me from using SUSE personally, I have performed extensive testing of it professionally, and I have to say it is very very smooth and easy. Technically, it is an impressive distribution. |
| zenarcher Jun 10, 2007 11:26 AM EDT |
jdixon....no, I haven't tried Blag. I'll have to take a look at that. I have tried CentOS, which seems to be pretty good, if one isn't interested in "bleeding edge." I kind of enjoy messing with bleeding edge things, which is why I keep one box just for playing, as I often trash it, but it's no big deal, since I'm probably going to try something else, anyway. I have no doubt I'm in the minority with automatix....I've done a bit of forum reading on it and it seems many are quite satisfied, although some others have also shared my experiences with it. Aladdin_Sane......yes, SUSE is very smooth and easy, at least in my experience. It is the one and only distro I've used where I my softRAID array was automatically detected at install and easily understood for setting up. Moral qualms are a very understandable issue. I have many of them myself, in many different areas. I spent several years in my working career writing editorials and those issues were often at the heart of my opinions. Again, reading many different articles and news releases, I do see, for whatever Novell is doing, a lot of moving in their direction both by schools and businesses. I think their ease of use has much to do with it, as well as they seem to be quite "educational friendly." There has been much discussion here about money...and what price one will set to be bought out. That, I believe may be the real focal point for many companies. The very nature of our political and economic system is based on money, pure and simple. Sadly, in my life I've seen a much greater move in even placing the value of an individual on what they have in material wealth to establish their worth. Has the individual who drives the new BMW contributed more to the betterment of mankind that the one driving the 1985 Ford? Maybe so....maybe not. But, that's the set of values we, as a nation have established. The concept is far reaching. What does it take to get elected to public office? A worthwhile platform, or cold hard cash for advertising and promotion? Most often, a candidate's potential to win an election is based on the size of their "campaign war chest," and more often than not....that's how it works out. At the moment, we're living in an extremely corporate friendly environment. Corporations such as Microsoft have enough money and political campaign donations to even exert pressure on government policy. Look at the amount of pressure they have been able to exert on states exploring the .odf format for state government documents. Look at the time prior to the current corporate friendly administration we now have, when the federal courts were ready to split Microsoft's power. Then, a change in government administration to a more corporate friendly one and the previous court decisions and stance were suddenly reversed. Money talks....all the way from the top right on down to the bottom. Those who hold out based on principle are to be admired, but they really aren't playing on a level playing field. Here's a classic example of the corporate friendly influence concept I've mentioned: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/business/10microsoft.html?... Sorry about the editorial, but I think it's a major point when talking about businesses having a price at which they will "sell out." |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 11:35 AM EDT |
>I think it's a major point when talking about businesses having a price at which they will "sell out." In this case, however, it's a straw man. The implication is that Novell has somehow compromised some core values in signing the deal with Microsoft. They didn't. They signed a business deal that helps them, helps Microsoft, and doesn't hurt anybody. One small part of the deal has been deemed unfriendly to the goals of free software, though it was consistent with the terms of every free software license at the time the deal was signed. That clause may be regrettable. Novell may have been able to save its hard-bargained (and lucrative) without agreeing to it, although we can only speculate to that. But...it sure doesn't seem like a sell-out to me. A real sell-out requires some kind of intent beyond going along with something that doesn't seem so bad. |
| zenarcher Jun 10, 2007 11:56 AM EDT |
I agree that from what I've read, the terms of the Novell deal were consistent with the free software licensing at the time. Then again, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm sure Novell had a string of lawyers involved before signing on the dotted line. I've even read some discussion where legal analysts feel the agreement, as signed, may very well come back sometime in the future to bite Microsoft. As with pretty much any legal contracts, some level of ambiguity will be debated for a long time to come and the full impact of the agreement may not be recognized for many years. Legal professionals still debate the "intent" of the Bill of Rights and the U.S. Constitution, more than two hundred years after it was written and it was meant to be a straightforward and simple document of the people. As you have so aptly pointed out....."we can only speculate." |
| jdixon Jun 10, 2007 11:56 AM EDT |
> I have tried CentOS, which seems to be pretty good, if one isn't interested in "bleeding edge." CentOS is a recompile of RHEL, which is by definition not "bleeding edge". Fedora is Red Hat's bleeding edge distribution. Which is probably why you prefer it. > Those who hold out based on principle are to be admired, but they really aren't playing on a level playing field. They never have been. There's little new under the sun. |
| zenarcher Jun 10, 2007 12:05 PM EDT |
Yes, CentOS is certainly not bleeding edge. I have considered it for my wife's computer, since she absolutely detests any sort of change. If I really want to start something around here, all I have to do is mention that a new release will be coming out.;) She's pretty typical for an average computer user....she just wants it "to work." When it doesn't, I find a post-it note on my monitor saying, "Fix it!" Whatever that may mean. I get computer customers all the time who don't even know that Windows is a Microsoft product. For that matter, I've had them who think "Internet Explorer" IS the Internet. It's not easy to explain to most of them that the spyware and viruses they suffer from are, for the most part, self-inflicted injuries. Those are the ones I really try to switch over to Linux. Generally, if I can get them to try applications such as Firefox, OpenOffice and such on their Windows machine, the transition is much easier, as they have basic applications they are now comfortable using. |
| devnet Jun 10, 2007 12:16 PM EDT |
Dino, Using your logic...money is changing hands and everyone wins. Women and children should be dancing in the street. We know this isn't the case though don't we? When money exchanges hands it is for goods or services or both. In this case, it supposedly is for collaborative work done with technology. The thing is, that could have been accomplished for free and without Microsoft losing anything (via any different open source licensing which would allow source code to still be controlled yet still open). So we know this isn't about the technology and collaborative work...there is another agenda. When you can have something for free and still pay for it and you're in Microsoft's position it makes me wonder what you'll expect later on...either what you'll expect to get away with, how you'll expect to be portrayed, or what you'll expect for favors from those you paid. |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 12:24 PM EDT |
devnet - Using my logic, that is true. But, remember, I attached strings. I believe that the Novell deal was a good deal for Novell. Even if it completely sinks SuSE it may be a good deal for Novell. Let's not forget that Linux barely tops 10% of Novell revenues. It is appropriate to be suspicious of Microsoft, but the precedent has been set: Steve Jobs took a lot of heat for taking $150 million from Microsoft ten years ago. Last I looked, Apple's done OK. |
| Libervis Jun 10, 2007 12:58 PM EDT |
Dinotrac: Good for Novell perhaps, but what about the GNU/Linux community? Sure it'll survive, but that doesn't mean we should let them slow our progress down any way they like nor does it mean we must cut Novell some slack for being basically a traitor of the community which made it possible for them to earn that 10%. Am I supposed to justify the deal by merely the fact that Novell will in some way benefit from it? What about the GNU/Linux community as a whole? What about RedHat? What about all the other vendors? Novell payed the tax, shouted how it isn't really a tax, but "whatever" says MS, "you others in the field now pay up like Novell did or we'll sue". That's the picture and Novell could have refused to do this to the GNU/Linux community. There is no excuse in sight here. |
| devnet Jun 10, 2007 1:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:Let's not forget that Linux barely tops 10% of Novell revenues. Let's also not forget that it's their fastest growing product as well... Let's also not forget that the 150 million in apple was an investment...there was no talk of patent indemnification or eye pee. |
| jdixon Jun 10, 2007 1:33 PM EDT |
> There is no excuse in sight here. Sure there is. Normal human incompetence. Novell was snookered. Now, recognizing that means that Novell has some obligation to make matters right, and they haven't done so. Whether this is more incompetence or willful refusal to see the truth is something I'm not capable of judging. It may be that they've decided to let the GPLv3 take care of the matter for them. |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 2:42 PM EDT |
> but what about the GNU/Linux community? The deal hasn't done one blessed bit of harm to the FOSS community. Not one bit. See my comments elsewhere on why companies should cease to care about the FOSS community. One mis-step and you're the devil. Novell gave a lot and supported a lot. One small clause in a larger agreement, and they are the devil. With friends like that, you might as well make deals with Microsoft. >Am I supposed to justify the deal No. You don't matter for crap and neither do I. Novell management was supposed to justify the deal based on what it could do for the company. That's their job. |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 2:44 PM EDT |
>that means that Novell has some obligation to make matters right, What obligation? They have clarified their position on the deal. They have clarified that no admission of infringement was involved. They have expressed regret over the outcome. What do you think they should do? Frankly, they've been a lot nicer about the community's nasty reaction than I would. |
| Libervis Jun 10, 2007 2:56 PM EDT |
Quoting:The deal hasn't done one blessed bit of harm to the FOSS community. Not one bit. Maybe I should clarify. The harm is to the cause of a movement in which a large part of the community belongs. Community is, after all, formed around certain common interests which mostly also includes the cause, whether this is an ideological Free Software cause or more expedient Open Source one doesn't matter. Microsoft's FUD campaign seems to end up hurting both, because we are basically forced (if we care, and we do) to disprove the lies which are supposed to mislead people away from our cause. Quoting:See my comments elsewhere on why companies should cease to care about the FOSS community. One mis-step and you're the devil. Novell gave a lot and supported a lot. One small clause in a larger agreement, and they are the devil. With friends like that, you might as well make deals with Microsoft. You know, that's interesting. I thought the community, the *people*, are supposed to be the ones whose voice should be heard for a world to be a better place, rather than some top down management. I thought that this was the whole point of the Free Software movement and a larger movement for freedom and equality to which it fits, to restore the rights and freedoms and influence to the ordinary people in the community, so that they can have a say in how the world works. So if Novell can't accept this and instead expects the community to, against its nature, act a blind eye on some things just because they did some other good things before, what's the point? You know how I interpret the processes that the Free Software movement is stirring? As the mere "consumers" being turned into full blooded participants in a society: a community. A community of people who care, who will shout when they see a wrongdoing and applaud when they see good being done to them. The consumer. That is the breed which should be dieing in favor of a respected customer and community member - each one of us, and each citizen of the world. So I'm sorry, but I just can't accept your reasoning about companies not having to listen to the FOSS community. I believe just the opposite. A fair business should be one who is there to serve the community with utmost respect, ESPECIALLY when it is this community which provides a product that your business depends on. |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 3:04 PM EDT |
>The harm is to the cause of a movement in which a large part of the community belongs. Now you may be getting a little closer. I don't agree that any harm has been done to the cause, but that wording can support a defensible position. > I thought the community, the *people*, are supposed to be the ones whose voice should be heard for a world to be a better place, rather than some top down management. You don't think Novell -- comprised of people, in case you haven't noticed -- can be a member of the community? It's certainly contributed more than most community members. How about IBM and its people? Red Hat? >A fair business should be one who is there to serve the community with utmost respect ESPECIALLY when it is this community which provides a product that your business depends on. This community? I wonder. Where was the respect and compassion for Novell, a community member that certainly contributed a lot more than you or I have? Novell should have been treated like a family member who screwed up. Even one who screwed up badly. Instead, this so-called "community" got out the knives. |
| Libervis Jun 10, 2007 3:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:I don't agree that any harm has been done to the cause Maybe not. I could argue that it ended up strengthening it, but this may very well be exactly because the community reacted the way it did. However, the deal was potentially harmful and if the community just ignored the whole thing the harm may have manifested itself. However, much of the consequences are still pending. The mounting fear campaign is something we must deal with now, a campaign fueled by the kinds of deals like with Novell and Xandros. Quoting:You don't think Novell -- comprised of people, in case you haven't noticed -- can be a member of the community? It's certainly contributed more than most community members. How about IBM and its people? Red Hat? Yes, all the companies are just groups of people. Novell, Red Hat, IBM and others are just official labels for these groups. That said what Novell contributed is not to be treated as something comparable to a contribution of one man, but a contributor of a rather big group of people. And that said, the average contribution of a Novell member might not be all that much bigger than an average contribution of any other equal number of people outside of Novell. Quoting:This community? I wonder. Where was the respect and compassion for Novell, a community member that certainly contributed a lot more than you or I have? Reiterating the above, Novell is a group, not a person, hence its contributions shouldn't be compared to only yours and mine, but in fairness to an equal number of other community members. :) When you make a distinction between people and an entity they represent it is easier not to generalize so I would agree that a bit of compassion for many of the people associated with Novell is in order. Many of the employees didn't even know about the deal before it came. There are only a few people, likely, which may be held accountable for it so the question is what to do about them? I personally didn't look at Novell's CEO as some sort of a villain even immediately after the deal and especially after reading him say that they don't admit violations, but the fact remained that they (the management) did something for business purposes which is against the cause of the community. Any rage that followed may have been misdirected to specific people, but the cause was the deal, not even the whole deal but a specific part of it. That is where the rage comes from and what its primary target is. That said I'm not saying the community is perfect nor that the people in it are all full of wisdom and whatnot. People when enraged often easily misdirect it and generalize. I agreed from the start, for example, that abandoning OpenSuSE was out of line. These people are by far not guilty of anything. But, the harsh criticism against the deal itself must remain, and should continue to be loud as long as the deal continues to be valid. We are now waiting for Novell to do something about that big mistake that they made (the top management who are responsible at least). It hasn't been undone yet. All of this in no way suggests that companies shouldn't listen to the community. They do however bear a greater responsibility to the community when their collective power is bigger (making their collective moves much more relevant and of higher impact), which is another angle I could have approached from (if we assumed Novell was a person, it would be a very powerful person and hence with greater responsibility and accountability). |
| jdixon Jun 10, 2007 4:59 PM EDT |
> What obligation? The obligation of someone who's actions have had an undesired effect to make things better. > They have clarified their position on the deal. They have clarified that no admission of infringement was involved. They have expressed regret over the outcome. I haven't seen any regret, at least not from those in charge. Do you have a cite? A statement to that effect from the CEO with a promise to work to make things better and not to make any further such mistakes in the future would go a long way with me. I can't speak for anyone else. Of course, I still wouldn't use SuSE. :) > What do you think they should do? I wish I knew Dino. If I did I'd write the CEO and tell him. I'd like nothing better than for Novell to fix this mess they inadvertently started. However, not being either a lawyer or a CEO, much less a combination of the two, I'm not certain how to do so. |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 5:07 PM EDT |
>I wish I knew Dino. Honest and to the point. The kind of answer everybody likes and rarely gets. It is also the correct answer. They can't go back in time and they sure don't want to give the money back. Methinks the real answer is to learn from their mistake and do the best job of distributing Linux they can while making whatever contributions they can make. Time heals most wounds. If Novell doesn't show a repeated tendency to do the wrong thing, they will be ok. I'm still bit a frosted, however, that the community has been so kind to Dell and its latest initiative -- a company that has really been disdainful to FOSS folk and is a Johnny-come-lately while roasting Novell over the coals. |
| Libervis Jun 10, 2007 6:33 PM EDT |
Well wasn't Novell once quite disdainful for GNU/Linux as well? Quite a few companies which are behind GNU/Linux have such history so.. I don't see such a big difference on that front. Cheers |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2007 7:00 PM EDT |
>Well wasn't Novell once quite disdainful for GNU/Linux as well? Novell has a tortured history towards Linux. They were the parent to Caldera, and that didn't turn out so well. However, as parent to SuSE, they've been involved in some goodness that should have earned at least a little love. Dell may reach that point soon, but, so far, they are just dipping toes. |
| DarrenR114 Jun 11, 2007 9:46 AM EDT |
Something that occurred last week involving Dell: The owner of a small company in Iowa called me in FL (I've been friends with his son for decades and I've even stayed overnight at his house) last week because his MS-Windows server wouldn't boot all of the sudden - they shut it down before thunderstorms hit and when it came back on, it kept giving a FAT32.dll error and something about the registry. After talking on the phone with the Dell tech and having on-site service (there wasn't anything physically wrong with the harddrive, just the MS-Windows install,) it was suggested to Joe, by the Dell technician, that he try using a LiveCD with Linux to see if he could get the data off the drive before re-installing MS-Windows. So, I've been trying to tell the guy over the phone how to download the ISO for DamnSmallLinux and burn it onto CD using MS-Windows, but he's having trouble following the directions at the DSL website (and they are specific to his particular CD burning program even!!) As far as I can tell there is no active Linux group nearby that I can refer him to. Bottom line: Dell is NOT out of the Linux doghouse as far as I'm concerned - not with the way they've left this guy high and dry. They made a suggestion and didn't give Joe any help as how to follow through on that suggestion. Looks like I'm going to have to byte the bullet and send him an already burned CD by mail. And *then* I'm going to have to teach him how to mount drives and do copying - all of this over the phone. |
| jdixon Jun 11, 2007 9:56 AM EDT |
> And *then* I'm going to have to teach him how to mount drives and do copying - all of this over the phone. Don't current versions of KDE have a remote control feature built-in? I seem to remember somesuch from my many ramblings about on the web. If you both have broadband, you may be able to take remote control of the machine and show him rather than telling him. |
| softwarejanitor Jun 11, 2007 10:07 AM EDT |
DarrenR114 -- you don't mention where in Iowa your friends are... but there is at least one Linux user group in Iowa I could point you to: CIALUG (Central Iowa Linux User Group) in the Des Moines area. http://www.cialug.org I believe there are some Linux user groups elsewhere in the state, the CIALUG guys can probably point you to them if need be. |
| DarrenR114 Jun 11, 2007 10:17 AM EDT |
@softwarejanitor ... I wish they lived in Central IA ... but alas they live in Eastern IA ... the CR area. There's a http://crlug.org but the mail I've sent to their contact has been undeliverable (temporarily unavailable for three days in a row.) I'll be calling the company in Hiawatha that sponsors that group - so wish me luck. |
| DarrenR114 Jun 11, 2007 10:22 AM EDT |
@jdixon ... I thought of that idea, the problems with that are: 1. getting him to open up the correct ports on the router 2. getting him to load the LiveCD with the proper "Remote Access" packages enabled. 3. getting the information I'd need to be able to log in remotely. IF there was someone with a modicum of an IT clue (this guy is not stupid - he just knows his business - Auto recycling - and not the IT business) then that would probably be the best route to go. |
| jdixon Jun 11, 2007 12:06 PM EDT |
> the CR area. The closest person I know is in Burlington, and they're not too mobile. :( > ...the problems with that are... Understood. If all else fails, try to get ssh set up. That will at least let you get into the machine and look at things, and it's a single port to open. |
| tracyanne Jun 11, 2007 5:50 PM EDT |
Quoting:One mis-step and you're the devil. Novell gave a lot and supported a lot. One small clause in a larger agreement, and they are the devil. With friends like that, you might as well make deals with Microsoft. Now that Novell have made it clear what they agreed to and what they did not agree to, and the same with Xandros, I think it's becoming increasingly clear that Microsoft's alleged 235 patents are more Microsoft vapour. They are not doing deals on these alleged patents, they are doing deals on patents they have in their proprietary connectivity standards, the 235 patents are FUD, quite possibly because Microsoft know that this is the easiest way to stir up the hornets nest that is the Linux community. As Dino points out the community is a fickle friend, everything is seen in terms of black and white. As I've said already, I believe Microsoft seeks to control Linux through the use of interoperability, by attempting to make Linux vendors dependant upon Microsoft's proprietary standards, and by controlling access to those standards. In addition, I believe they see this as a means of ensuring income off of Linux. |
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