PatentNRun anybody?
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| ABCC Jun 06, 2007 8:28 PM EDT |
How much longer until Lindows capitulate and sign an 'interoperability and patent agreement' with our dear friends in Redmond? They've always talked the talk, but will they walk the walk (of shame/the plank)? |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 2:22 AM EDT |
ABCC - So, why would they do that? |
| tracyanne Jun 07, 2007 3:32 AM EDT |
Yes I'd like to know the answer to that question too. |
| peragrin Jun 07, 2007 4:33 AM EDT |
take a look at these MSFT deals. when all is said and done MSFT is paying Novell and most likely xanadros hundreds of millions of dollars. MSFT then spews some more FUD. MSFT sued Lindows, and then paid Lindows $20 million to change their name to Linspire. every time MSFT goes to court, they pay. Win lose or draw MSFT hands over some cash. |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 4:57 AM EDT |
>Win lose or draw MSFT hands over some cash. Which has what to do with the question? BTW -- You should make some small effort to understand the Novell-Microsoft deal. The patent provision was a last minute throw-in by Microsoft, done at at point when most of the deal was negotiated. It absolutely was an attack on free software, but was not the point of the deal from Novell's POV. The question before them: "Is this or is this not a deal-breaker" They may have made the wrong call (or may not have). However, I just can't bring myself to be too harsh on the executives of a struggling company that make a decision to save a deal that had been months in the making and would provide them hundreds of millions in cash as well as interoperability aid that could directly benefit their main products (not Linux, btw). |
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 07, 2007 5:35 AM EDT |
>>So, why would they do that? dinotrac: Asked and answered in a previous thread. Linspire acts as a moth attracted to money. I said before that they would be the next one to deal, and while many disagree, my opinion hasn't changed. |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 6:27 AM EDT |
>Linspire acts as a moth attracted to money. I said before that they would be the next one to deal, and while many disagree, my opinion hasn't changed. In other words, they are evil people of whom you don't approve, and, therefore, must be planning to do a deal. |
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 07, 2007 6:40 AM EDT |
No, I've nothing personal against Linspire. But I can detect and interpret behavioral attributes. |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 6:50 AM EDT |
>But I can detect and interpret behavioral attributes. So long as its nothing personal. |
| Abe Jun 07, 2007 8:54 AM EDT |
Quoting:You should make some small effort to understand the Novell-Microsoft deal. The patent provision was a last minute throw-in by Microsoft, done at at point when most of the deal was negotiated. Dino, I think we fully understand the goals of both Novell and MS in their deal, and your point doesn't justify anything. The fact is, the deal is made beneficial to both but very harmful to FOSS and everyone else who distributes FOSS. That is against the merits of FOSS and totally unacceptable. The community is not willing to sacrifice everything FOSS stands for just for sweet Novell and beloved MS to survive and flourish on the account of everyone else. Yes Novell is doing the best for itself and to keep growing its business (or they think they are) and no one is blaming them for that. On the other hand, we need to remember that FOSS was not created for companies to make a big business out of FOSS on the account of others. There are rules and guidelines that everyone has to abide by, and they are going to change with time depending on the situations and with the threats. if they want to use FOSS, they better understand that and not try to tweak it or look for loop holes. If they are not ready or willing, no one is twisting their arm, they just don't have to use it. It is simple and straight forward. No buts or ifs. Either they comply, or they are better do something else because these rules are not open for comprimise. I don't think that is hard to understand or comprehand, is it? |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 9:26 AM EDT |
>but very harmful to FOSS and everyone else who distributes FOSS. People keep repeating this, but nobody has managed to come up with any actual harm. Seems to me the biggest damage has been done by FOSS Chicken Littles wasting time and energy over pretty much nothing. |
| NoDough Jun 07, 2007 9:53 AM EDT |
Din: Agreed. I'm not educated enough on this topic to say it doesn't harm FOSS, but I would certainly like to see someone explain how it does. |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 10:01 AM EDT |
NoDough - I've heard lots of slippery slopes and hypotheticals, but no actual harm. The biggest problem so far seems to be the involvement of Microsoft. Methinks FOSS (if not all FOSS people) is stronger than that. |
| Abe Jun 07, 2007 10:14 AM EDT |
Quoting:People keep repeating this, but nobody has managed to come up with any actual harm. Not enough time for now to list all the damages that could result. I will have to catch you later for the details. But, the major is granting MS full control of licensing FOSS. This is what MS has tried before through SCO and has been trying recently to accomplish by tagging their tax onto FOSS to make it look like it is a more expensive solution for the enterprise than Windows. Quoting:Seems to me the biggest damage has been done by FOSS Chicken Littles... No one has listed these either. Would you like to enlighten us? And no, FOSS hasn't slowed down in adoption, on the contrary, its adoption has been steadily increasing. |
| bigg Jun 07, 2007 10:25 AM EDT |
> granting MS full control of licensing FOSS ? |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 11:02 AM EDT |
>that could result. I didn't ask for hypotheticals or the things that scare you. I asked for harms. >But, the major is granting MS full control of licensing FOSS. Sounds like somebody's been breathing deep of the ozone. >No one has listed these either Not true. 1. Wasted time and effort 2. Alienation of a perfectly good Linux distribution (Suse) and fallout on its free cousin (OpenSuse) 3. Possible side effects of bastardizing GPLV3 -- but that is only a hypothetical harm. We'll have to see how it plays out. 4. Added credibility to Microsoft's position by making it seem as if their patent protection offer has real meaning. |
| NoDough Jun 07, 2007 11:08 AM EDT |
Quoting:But, the major is granting MS full control of licensing FOSS.Again, this makes no sense to me. Can you elaborate on how this is happening. |
| bigg Jun 07, 2007 11:12 AM EDT |
> 2. Alienation of a perfectly good Linux distribution (Suse) and fallout on its free cousin (OpenSuse) That seems pretty serious to me. I want companies with the resources of Novell to be on our side. They've contributed a lot to FOSS. And let me add to your list: 5. Significantly reduced life spans of Linux users due to all the stress they have heaped upon themselves. If the average Linux user uses Linux for 50 years, and dies 10 years early due to unnecessary worrying, that's 20% of our market share up in smoke. |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 11:21 AM EDT |
> reduced life spans of Linux users ;0) |
| jrm Jun 07, 2007 11:23 AM EDT |
> I didn't ask for hypotheticals or the things that scare you. I asked for harms. How is that useful, except as a debate tactic? Using that logic, we should all drop our uninsured motorist coverage. If I drive without insurance, there is no actual harm. Until I cause an accident, there is only potential harm. (And we don't want to alienate the uninsured motorists. Some of them are excellent drivers.) |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 11:32 AM EDT |
>How is that useful, except as a debate tactic? Umm....gosh, not full up on this logic thingie? When you ask a specific question, it is not unreasonable to note that somebody has not answered the question you asked. Presuming that you are sincere in your comment, the debate tactic would seem to be on the other side: faced with one thing, try to steer the conversation elsewhere. And, ahem, your insurance example goes to my point, or, at least, it would if you understand the way that insurance works. Insurance protects against real harms that actually do happen by spreading the risk over a large population. For example, houses really do burn down, but not very many of them. From the standpoint of the insured, it may look like you're paying for something that probably isn't going to happen. From the standpoint of the insurance company, they are paying for something that almost certainly will happen, but they don't know to whom. That, by the way, is the reason you see all those stories about insurance companies losing money, wiggling out, whatever when a large disaster strikes. Instead of a few payouts, they suddenly have to face a boatload. |
| jrm Jun 07, 2007 11:42 AM EDT |
My point was that it is sometimes helpful to plan for things that haven't yet happened. I haven't been hit by an uninsured motorist, but if it does happen I am prepared. You're only insisting that we point out actual harm because that suits your argument. There has been no actual harm at this point in time. > not full up on this logic thingie? If you would like to have a discussion, let me know. I don't have time to trade juvenile barbs with you. |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 11:53 AM EDT |
>There has been no actual harm at this point in time. For that matter, no concrete suggestions as to what that potential harm would look like. >I don't have time to trade juvenile barbs with you. We can't all be quick witted. Don't feel bad, though. Being slow is not the same as being stupid. |
| Abe Jun 08, 2007 8:32 AM EDT |
Quoting:Bigg: > granting MS full control of licensing FOSS ?When MS dictates through their agreement with Novell, Xandros, and Dell (so far) to get laid and paid for every Linux/FOSS copy those outfits offer to customers, without being able to copy and distribute is full control in my opinion. This is against the GPL terms and principles. Quoting:Dino: I didn't ask for hypotheticals or the things that scare you. I asked for harms. Forcing a license and control over distributing Linux/FOSS is NOT hypothetical. It is already happening if you haven’t noticed. Quoting:Dino: 1. Wasted time and effortAre you for real??? Please be serious. Defending software freedom is a worthy cause. If you happen to believe otherwise, that is your problem since many more people believe that the agreement Novell, and its likes, made with MS is very harmful.[/quote] Quoting:2. Alienation of a perfectly good Linux distribution (Suse) and fallout on its free cousin (OpenSuse)Are you saying that Novell is right and everyone else who thinks that Novell didn’t need that agreement is wrong? I personally strongly disagree with you, Novell alienated them selves big time. I said it many times and I say it again, I used Suse for 5-6 years and it was always my favorite and was a big advocate, but after their deal, I dropped it. Period. Did FOSS lose a good distro? Sure did, but it is not worth having when it is causing trouble and damage to FOSS in general. There are enough and much better distros around. As a matter of fact, the new distros available are far superior to Suse. Quoting:3. Possible side effects of bastardizing GPLV3 -- but that is only a hypothetical harm. We'll have to see how it plays out.No bastardizing at all, just clean and mean reinforcement of the GPL terms. This is necessary and will be needed periodically to maintain the spirit and values of what the GPL was created for in the first place and which come companies are trying to deviate from for their own selfish reasons. Quoting:4. Added credibility to Microsoft's position by making it seem as if their patent protection offer has real meaning. Be careful Dino, I think the lawyer in you is surfacing again. Just say no to it. Nothing gave credibility to MS IP claims more than Novell. Although Novell keeps refuting it, but many businesses started to believe otherwise since Novell signed the agreement. Quoting:Bigg: That seems pretty serious to me. I want companies with the resources of Novell to be on our side. They've contributed a lot to FOSSI agree it is a loss, but totally disagree on its seriousness. Nothing serious about it since Linux/FOSS continues to flourish rapidly and consistently. There is nothing that Suse has to offer that is not already equally or better offered by many other distros. That is one of the major strengths of FOSS, if one is gone, many others come alive stronger and better. My point is, you don't sacrifice the whole for one part. It just doesn't make sense. |
| dinotrac Jun 08, 2007 8:49 AM EDT |
Abe - Sigh. So many words. >Defending software freedom is a worthy cause. I agree completely. The question is whether a lot bleating and rancor defends software freedom or merely makes noise. The bad guy in the Microsoft-Novell deal is Microsoft. I am amazed that so much venom has been poured on Novell. Did Novell make a mistake? Maybe, maybe not. They had a dying business of which Linux was only one part. They had a deal in the works worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Microsoft tossed in a monkey wrench and Novell had to decide if it was a deal-breaker or not. So...they did something bad. Does that make them bad? When somebody in your family screws up, do you hound them out of the family or encourage them back to the straight and narrow? >No bastardizing at all, just clean and mean reinforcement of the GPL terms. I'm sorry, but I get suspicious of a license that requires a grandfather clause. Although, I must admit that the grandfather clause indicates that the FSF may be willing to let Novell back into the fold before some so-called friends of FOSS. >When MS dictates through their agreement with Novell, Xandros, and Dell (so far) to get laid and paid for every Linux/FOSS copy those outfits offer to customers, without being able to copy and distribute Oh come on. You could at least make some tiny attempt to acknowledge the facts. Nobody's right to copy and distribute has been taken away by the Microsoft agreements. If any rights to distribute are taken away, it will be by GPLV3. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!