Other Factors
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| zenarcher May 14, 2007 7:43 AM EDT |
Of course, you might also consider the potential for start up surge and the thermal shock of heating and cooling of components, as well. I've worked in radio stations and such, were we never completely shut down equipment for that reason. Likewise, I never considered it with my ham radio equipment for the same reason. My systems stay on. |
| mvermeer May 14, 2007 8:07 AM EDT |
Same here... as one acquaintance put it, you never know if it will come on again. I work often in the evenings on my job machine over ssh. Don't know how to remotely turn it off and on (well, I know how to do off... but not on :-) One item to check also is the cost, in terms of energy, of manufacturing the computer. Wouldn't be surprised if it were significant. Then "clever IT" includes operating system software that doesn't artificially obsolesce your hardware ;-) |
| tuxchick May 14, 2007 8:29 AM EDT |
I knew the 'thermal shock' argument would rear its head, as it always does when this subject comes up. It's even used to justify leaving lights on 24x7, because the poor little filaments can't tolerate the thermal stresses of being turned on and off. But no one ever presents any relevant data; it just sounds like fussy engineering theories. I can't count the number of old PCs that are running just fine that get turned off and on on a regular basis; I have customers still running Win 3.11 on 486s. I don't see any downside to turning electric gear off when it doesn't need to be running. |
| dinotrac May 14, 2007 8:36 AM EDT |
>I don't see any downside to turning electric gear off when it doesn't need to be running. That's because you heartlessly disregard the psychological well-being of your Silicon-American friends. Just imagine the psychological stress they endure each night, knowing that their owner -- their beloved owner -- will kill them. The sorrow. The agony. The shame. |
| tuxchick May 14, 2007 9:25 AM EDT |
I am so insensitive. I totally wasn't thinking, dino. I think I will treat my little Silicon-American friends to some nice mugs of beer, and then they will feel better. Here you go, little friends, cheers! Drink u |
| Bob_Robertson May 14, 2007 9:26 AM EDT |
"That's because you heartlessly disregard the psychological well-being of your Silicon-American friends." Oh sure, they laugh now.... |
| zenarcher May 14, 2007 1:58 PM EDT |
There is a far bigger difference between thermal shock to a light bulb filament and sensitive electronic components. As for "fussy engineering" ideas, although I am retired now, I worked in that "fussy engineering" area, both military and civilian, beginning in the late 1960's. Likewise, I've held three Federal Communications Commission licenses since 1967. So, I'll stand by my theory and everything I was taught, as well as what we experienced under lab testing conditions. Others are free to do as they choose. |
| Sander_Marechal May 14, 2007 2:59 PM EDT |
zenarcher, there's one point you overlook: The equipment you use at home has been designed to be turned on/off on a regular basis (to withstand thermal shock). So are modern light bulbs. It's a valid case for specialty equipment or things designed to run 24/7, but not for the run-off-the-mill consumer devices. |
| zenarcher May 14, 2007 3:05 PM EDT |
In other words, you are saying that power supply components, integrated circuits, surface mounted components, solder joints on circuit boards and such are special design, meant to survive these environmental variables, unlike mil-standard components used in commercial and military equipment? That sounds a bit backwards to me. I've always considered my ham radio equipment to be home use, although in the old days, I owned Collins, which was all military grade equipment and the recommendations remained the same. I'll say that I have four computers here in the house which are all on 24/7. They run on KVM switches to two LCD displays. Probably someone using CRT monitors is eating far more electricity than my systems. Actually, I got rid of the biggest energy consumers in my house. Kids. They grew up, moved away and pay their own electric bills. |
| Sander_Marechal May 14, 2007 3:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:In other words, you are saying that power supply components, integrated circuits, surface mounted components, solder joints on circuit boards and such are special design, meant to survive these environmental variables, unlike mil-standard components used in commercial and military equipment? Well, if you put it like that...... yes :-) It's simply engineering to a different standard. An engineer designing a decent consumer device can expect it to be turned on/off lots of times, get dropped, shaken, have coffee spilled on it and may even have flaky power. An engineer designing a similar device for the military has different priorities. Also note that I said *decent* consumer device. If you buy a flaky, cheapo whitebox and start flipping the powerswitch, you're on your own :-) |
| dcparris May 14, 2007 3:47 PM EDT |
An engineer designing a similar device for the military better make sure he accounts for the coffee spillage, probably x5. ;-) |
| zenarcher May 14, 2007 6:36 PM EDT |
Well, perhaps times have changed, but when I worked in design, commercial equipment was really built with minimal tolerances, as it was all about profit, while with military, cost was not such a factor. As for the coffee factor, I'd completely agree! When I was in the Air Force (circa 1962), I was on an Atlas Missile Crew at Vandenburg AFB, in California. We were involved with several launches at that time. I recall one launch, where guidance was lost and we had to blow the thing up before it ever reached the ocean. Part of our job was recovery in those cases, as most of the parts were classified. During reconstruction on that one, to establish the cause, a coffee cup was found to have been left in the guidance pod.:) |
| dcparris May 14, 2007 7:00 PM EDT |
You mean to tell me guidance pods *don't* drink coffee? What's with all the "hibernate" and/or "sleep" mode stuff on computers these days? I thought these were supposed to give us the benefits of powering off without the negative impact of thermal shock? IANAEngineer |
| Sander_Marechal May 14, 2007 10:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:when I worked in design, commercial equipment was really built with minimal tolerances, as it was all about profit It often still is, but customers are demanding better quality, and companies are starting to pick up on it. When I was in University some years ago, everyone was issued a laptop. When in it's pack, it could survive 10 feet drops. Coffee was no problem. Whaddaya mean turning it off and letting it dry? No need! They were Toshiba Sattelite's from the PII era BTW. |
| jimf May 15, 2007 12:17 AM EDT |
> I was taught, as well as what we experienced under lab testing conditions. Others are free to do as they choose. My experience in OEM controls food/drug/packaging industry has given me a very similar perspective to zenarcher. I always run a desktop/workstation 24/7. Of course we have to recognize that Laptops have been designed to reduce thermal shock, often at the expense of long term heat dissipation. It's a 'very good' idea to shut down a laptop when not in use. > Coffee was no problem. Whaddaya mean turning it off and letting it dry? No need! > They were Toshiba Sattelite's from the PII era BTW. I witnessed several of my controls guys disprove that claim in quick order. Although, repair turn around was better than usual ;-) |
| dcparris May 15, 2007 4:39 AM EDT |
I read some tests - might have been by the old Computer Shopper rag - where they tested hardened laptops. Actually, Toshiba had the best reputation among the pack then. Even on my job, the folks used to swear by their old Toshibas (I received an ancient monster at one point, and people seemed to have really fond memories of its toughness). |
| zenarcher May 15, 2007 4:50 AM EDT |
Several years ago, I had one of the Toshiba laptops, as well. I purchased it with a three year warranty and I would imagine Toshiba still regrets that plan, since I paid nothing extra for it. It was a tough old machine and over three years, I have to say Toshiba was quick with repairs. In that period of time, they replaced 3 keyboards (I wore the letters off the keys), 1 motherboard, 1 power supply, 1 hard drive and 1 complete case which had begun to develop small hairline cracks in several places. I don't think they made a dime on that sale! |
| jdixon May 15, 2007 5:56 AM EDT |
> It's simply engineering to a different standard. An engineer designing a decent consumer device can expect it to be turned on/off lots of times, get dropped, shaken, have coffee spilled on it and may even have flaky power. An engineer designing a similar device for the military has different priorities. Yes, he does have additional priorities. Larger temperature range, emf shielding, and radiation resistance, for example. However, frequent loss of/dirty power, frequent shutdowns for movement, being transported (often over rugged terrain), and having coffee/water/blood/(insert other applicable fluids) here spilled on them are still large considerations for military design. Simply put, imo, you're wrong. |
| dinotrac May 15, 2007 6:09 AM EDT |
>Simply put, imo, you're wrong. Sounds like nobody in this thread is right. Where are the engineers? The right answer, as usual, is "it depends". For example: If consumer equipment, how long will it stay off when you shut it down? How long do you expect to keep it? Seriously, if you're likely to upgrade before the thing gives up the ghost, save some freakin' electicity. And then there is the mechanical question -- Computers aren't all electronic. Fans and hard drives have these little things called bearings. Do you know with certainty the relative quality of the moving parts in your purchased-as-a-box computer pc? Whether they will suffer more from being shut down once a day or from constantly turning? I leave my stuff on, but, except for the Myth backend, I probably should turn it off. |
| techiem2 May 15, 2007 6:31 AM EDT |
Quoting:I read some tests - might have been by the old Computer Shopper rag - where they tested hardened laptops. PC/Computing (sadly discontinued) used to do torture tests yearly with all the current consumer laptops (and usually showed a few hardened models on the side). They'd flat and edge drop em, freeze em, cook em (literally), coffee em, etc. It was always my favorite issue. As for my machines, they stay on. Most are running servers. My personal box I like immediate access to when I get up. I don't like having to boot it up, start up all my frequently used programs, reconnect to irc and im servers, etc. :) |
| Sander_Marechal May 15, 2007 1:42 PM EDT |
I leave my server up (a power sucking ProLiant) but it's busy 24/7. Anything else gets turned off if it can. Only my VCR stays on standby but it has no off besides pulling the plug. |
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