Completely Agree
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| richo123 Mar 27, 2007 1:55 PM EDT |
There is not enough social sanction on online destructive behavior imho. Most of these people would never attempt this kind of bs in person. The best fora have tough but fair moderators to compensate for the online lack of the conscious and unconscious rules which are present in old fashioned interaction (You know you remember when you actually get within 6 inches of someone). |
| tracyanne Mar 27, 2007 2:57 PM EDT |
The forums where I regularly post are very good at keeping such destructive people out. Mind you most of the women and men I know on these forums are not above ripping the idiot, who posts such tripe, to shreds first, and the idiots are usually smart enough to not bother coming back for more, long before they are banned. |
| jimf Mar 27, 2007 3:04 PM EDT |
'death threats'??? We're not just talking about the 'politically correct' hate crime here. There is a huge difference in an insult (i.e., I hate your guts), and a threat against someone's life. A serious 'I'm gonna kill you' is regarded in the US as 'criminal assault', whether it's a man or woman. That needs to be followed up and prosecuted by our legal system. Time for anonymous thugs to get what they deserve. |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 27, 2007 3:14 PM EDT |
Even on the most male-oriented forums I frequent, women are never threatened like that (they may be asked for cup size though). If the author is getting reactions like that it's not "just because she's a women in a male-dominated online world". There *has* to be something else playing (unless she stumbled on Genmay, but that's another tale :-) |
| dcparris Mar 27, 2007 4:42 PM EDT |
I don't get this. I don't get what led to the threats to begin with. What's the so-called motivation? The whole idea of death threats just doesn't sink in. For what? Someone would have to begin a physical assault on me/family/neighbors/etc. before I think about violence. I don't even call my wife names (or anyone else, for that matter) in an argument, let alone threaten someone's life. It's just pure stupid. |
| jimf Mar 27, 2007 5:29 PM EDT |
I agree completely Don, but obviously, there are those in the world who think and do otherwise. It's stupid, it's irrational, but some in society are either deranged, or just plain immoral thugs. Dealing with that kind of extreme is where the law should come into effect. |
| tuxchick Mar 27, 2007 5:36 PM EDT |
Death threats, threats of sexual violence, and 'asking for their cup size' all have the same ugly disrespectful, de-humanizing root. Is it really that hard to understand that we'd like be treated as actual humans instead of collections of body parts created to amuse men? What's remarkable about Kathy Sierra is not that this is happening to her, but that she created a public fuss about it. It happens all the time- it's more common to just quietly vanish and not say a word. People who complain are criticized for 'whining', we're supposed to accept abuse as the price of being on the Internet. I accept that the Internet has given a new forum to a lot of sick, hateful people. I don't accept that I, or anyone else, is obliged to hang out with them. I know, preaching to the choir- LXer is a great hangout. But it's the exception. |
| jdixon Mar 27, 2007 5:58 PM EDT |
> But it's the exception. Which is a sorry state of affairs. |
| dcparris Mar 27, 2007 6:46 PM EDT |
Quoting:Is it really that hard to understand that we'd like be treated as actual humans instead of collections of body parts created to amuse men? I don't know, TC. I've worked in places where the employees (male and female) boasted that "sexual harrassment wasn't tolerated; it was rated". It was practiced widely in a hotel in SC - though definitely always clearly understood to be in fun & jest - it was the culture there. The women were as engaged as the men. I'm not judging the nature of it, just saying that's what it was, for good or bad. I mention it in the hopes of bringing out some meaningful dialog on the issue. That said, I definitely agree that when people indicate that they don't appreciate such behavior, they should be shown respect accordingly. Nor should women need to keep their silence when incidents occur that are discomforting/offensive. Communicating a threat is offensive, period. Even I have taken action in a situation where I felt a threat was communicated. People should not have to tolerate abusive/threatening behavior. |
| bigg Mar 27, 2007 6:55 PM EDT |
I must admit I was shocked by this post, totally unaware of the problem. LXer is my only "hangout" on the internet. After watching Dateline, I should not have been surprised, but I was. Good of you to make some of us aware. |
| dinotrac Mar 27, 2007 7:25 PM EDT |
Carla - Sad to say, but the online world is Coward Heaven. Nobody sees your face. Nobody's going to take a punch at you and, in all likelihood, nothings every going to happen to you no matter how idiotic you are. If you are a pathetic loser out in the world of flesh, blood, and eye contact, you'll still be a pathetic loser online...but you don't have to fear the consequences of making noise. Sad indeed. |
| tuxchick Mar 27, 2007 7:26 PM EDT |
Don, I wonder how much of that 'fun & jest' is fake, and people going along with it even though they would rather not. But I suppose expecting professional behavior at work is another one of those silly prudish things I'm famous for. Me and the other uppity grrlz I hang with are spending more time encouraging women to speak up more and not just put up with being treated poorly, and learning effective ways to stand up for themselves. Slinking away in silence, or 'going along to get along' are spectacularly ineffective tactics. It's easy to think you're the only one and won't get any support, but often that is not the case. Many times they find out that a lot of the people they associate with are bothered by the same stuff, but nobody wants to make a fuss. You know the famous Burke quote- "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Here's a recent fun story- one of my friends works for $BignameTechCo. Senior guy in her group tells her that because "some people" are sexist and will attack her, she has to keep a low profile in order to save $BignameTechCo. I won't even bother to comment on the dizzying illogic and rampant baloney in that statement. Fortunately friend is tuff. Tried to talk it over with him, got nowhere, and filed a complaint with HR, got dork in trouble. Yay friend. It's not always a happy ending- it could have gone against her just as easily. |
| tracyanne Mar 27, 2007 8:11 PM EDT |
Don, I've received veiled death threats from a bloke on an Atheist v Theist type debate board (I was the Atheist of course). I can't say that it bothered me, and the rest of us on the board had a good laugh at the blokes expense. I'd say that depending on the person making the death threats, it could be something as simple as being outed as a charlatan, as I did with this bloke, or as complex as being shown for an idiot one too many times. |
| dcparris Mar 27, 2007 11:11 PM EDT |
TC: thanks for your feedback. I do know that people frequently "go along to get along" whether its race or sex. Even I have found myself in rare circumstances keeping the (my) peace until the task was accomplished. Mind you, I also had a guy resign because I had hired a second black person on that site. The only candidates we had were black, but he got mad and quit. I was horribly patronizing to a young black woman once because I thought she was being discriminated against as a black person. It turned out differently, but I still handled it wrong (or badly at the very least). In this particular case, I'm pretty sure it was the culture, and - at least on the surface - it did not appear that there was any real sexual involvement. I didn't live near the hotel, so don't know about the off-duty social affairs. However, I certainly have not seen anything remotely similar since. I have asked the ladies (particularly the IT ladies) at work about how they are treated. Most seem to feel they are treated well overall. There seem to be some issues (probably not specified to me), but the general feeling is of high regard for the way things are handled. Although I start my day when most finish theirs, I have been around long enough to know that any sexual-oriented playing would be rebuffed fairly quickly. Tracyanne: That's interesting. I can't honestly think of a situation in which I've felt threatened by netizens - even in the interracial dating discussions (some of the most vile, inhumane filth pours forth in those discussions). I honestly haven't seen a religious debate that compares to the sentiments of intteracial dating (at least in the US). Anyway, I have to agree with TC that it's best to respond in some way to threats, though obviously, one does indeed need to consider the weight of the threat. |
| dcparris Mar 27, 2007 11:15 PM EDT |
Posted on Sander's behalfQuoting:Death threats, threats of sexual violence, and 'asking for their cup size' all have the same ugly disrespectful, de-humanizing root. True, but I consider the former two a lot worse than the latter. My point was that I have never seen one of the former, even on the most female-unfriendly places I've been. At least, not motivated by the fact the one threatened was a woman. I have a lovely collection of death threats myself (mostly from west-africa :-), but they were all motivated my what I wrote and how I acted, not who I am. Which makes me wonder what the author did or wrote that attracted the threats. |
| SFN Mar 28, 2007 4:16 AM EDT |
Quoting:I have a lovely collection of death threats myself (mostly from west-africa :-), but they were all motivated my what I wrote and how I acted, not who I am. Which makes me wonder what the author did or wrote that attracted the threats. I'm going to say this and hope that it's not taken as an accusation. I'm merely trying to point out how a comment like that can play out in the minds of others. Do you realize how much that sounds like "she must have been asking for it"? The next step would be to accuse her of wearing too short of a skirt. |
| SFN Mar 28, 2007 4:36 AM EDT |
Quoting:I've received veiled death threats from a bloke on an Atheist v Theist type debate board (I was the Atheist of course).That's interesting. Only once in the years I've been online have I received a death threat. It was in the exact same situation. |
| dinotrac Mar 28, 2007 5:36 AM EDT |
>Do you realize how much that sounds like "she must have been asking for it"? Oh my, how the PC thought police crawl everywhere. I realize we like to excuse victims of any responsibility or causality in their actions, but... Yikes!! If I leave my wallet on the train, my car unlocked with valuables in plain sight, etc, etc, etc... I share some responsibility in the loss I suffer. If I go to a bar in Boy's Town, I share some responsibility for getting hit on rudely by people of the wrong gender. It doesn't excuse wrongdoing on anybody's part. The thieves are still thieves and the boors are still boors. One would like to think that, on a discussion forum, you could say pretty much anything without getting your life threatened. For that matter, you SHOULD be able to do so. Just ask Salmon Rushdie. Imagine what the late Theo van Gogh might have answered. The Rev's question is completely fair. In fact, it's more fair in an online situation than in most, because... People will say anything online. And they'll say it in the most insulting way. And, usually, they will be idiots in the process. I suspect that, for some, saying "I'll kill you" is the only topper they can come up with, especially in these days of young rot-heads weaned on video games in which killing is the primary objective. |
| SFN Mar 28, 2007 5:57 AM EDT |
Hmm. Yes. It's OK to suggest that she might bear some responsibility for the attack but wrong for me to suggest that the comment sounds like blaming the victim. Mea frickin' culpa. |
| dinotrac Mar 28, 2007 6:09 AM EDT |
>Mea frickin' culpa. Me too, then, for the PC comment. Being PC requires being wrong in the face of all reason. Legitimate thought -- in any direction -- is unPC. |
| tuxchick Mar 28, 2007 7:25 AM EDT |
"Which makes me wonder what the author did or wrote that attracted the threats." It would be nice to know if there were a precipitating incident. Maybe there was something, maybe not. Most times the precipitating incident is simply being there. Kathy Sierra wrote that she had been the target of trolling and harassment for some time, with no consequences for the trolls. Then this really nasty crud happened. I can tell you from experience that committing the enormous crime of existing is usually all it takes. I suspect that her being blond and attractive made her more of a target. It's so much fun being female- if you're not beautiful, you're not worthy of notice. If you are attractive, oh baby you get noticed. :P I'll accept that the Internet is infested with lusers and sickos who don't have the guts to say 'you suck' in person. That's the way it is. I don't accept that we have to tolerate them in any way. |
| dinotrac Mar 28, 2007 8:13 AM EDT |
>I don't accept that we have to tolerate them in any way. I should hope that we all agree with that. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 28, 2007 9:34 AM EDT |
As inflammatory and incindiary as I can be (you've all seen a bit of it, I'm sure) I've *never* received a death threat. I will say this on TC's behalf, there doesn't have to be anything that was "done" to become the recipient of such irrational behavior. My wife and a friend maintained a web site of creative work they did as fans of different TV shows. On a lark, they posted some pictures of barbies (dressed as different characters from the shows) at various locations throughout Chicago while on vacation. The theme was along the lines of "Scully and Mulder on vacation". They also posted montage videos using clips from the shows, and original stories based on the TV characters. The website had contact info for feedback, but no one ever sent any complaints. They got plenty of positive feedback, but out of the blue, someone who did not make themself known submitted that her site to "The Awful Site of the Day". That totally demoralised my wife. It was her hobby that she took pleasure in sharing her creativity with others. She had received literally hundreds of pieces of fan email that encouraged her to continue. Many people even asked her advice in writing their own stories. And some bastard ruined it for her. That was several years ago. She's still looking for an outlet where she can share herself with others without fear of ridicule. I'm a bit more thick-skinned, so when ppl call me "idiot" or "moron" or "troll", I don't take it so personally. Occasionally I will call the accuser on it, but I don't take it personally. This is the internet after all. But what happened to my wife still pisses me off - no one should have to contend with "anonymous" ridicule, and *never* with death threats. |
| dcparris Mar 28, 2007 10:28 AM EDT |
I grew up in an abusive environment. I literally never did anything to entice attacks. I wanted and tried to 'fit in', to be friendly, etc. None of that mattered. Simply by being at that place at that point in time with those people, I was subjected to some fairly ugly stuff. It followed me until I left town. It has taken many years, but I eventually figured out that I really am a human being, and not Quasi Modo (with whom I long identified fairly closely). These days, it would take a physical attack to shake me. Still, threats can actually draw a sharp reaction from me, as I generally don't tolerate them. |
| SFN Mar 28, 2007 11:19 AM EDT |
Quoting:These days, it would take a physical attack to shake me. Still, threats can actually draw a sharp reaction from me, as I generally don't tolerate them. I tend to react the same way. The abuse I dealt with growing up came from social situations. Lots of bullying. As a kid you don't really know how to deal with that. As an adult, you know how but it doesn't happen all that often - at least not as a man. I do think adult women go through a fair amount of bullying, albeit in a different form and that is what we're seeing here. I'd be very interested in seeing how many of what society has labeled "geeks" ("us") dealt with bullying in one form or another as a kid. Now you put those people on the net as adults and they see the same crap all over and again and, although they can handle it, they are once again unable to do anything about it because the bullies are out of their reach. |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 28, 2007 2:02 PM EDT |
Quoting:Posted on Sander's behalf Uh? Did I mispost somehow? Anyway, thanks for saving my comment. Quoting:Do you realize how much that sounds like "she must have been asking for it"? Yes, but it's still a valid question. I can't check for myself because she took her blog down. And the fact that she took her blog down and canceled her public appearances indicates that the threats were something more serious than a mere drive-by-troll on her blog. Quoting:I don't accept that we have to tolerate them in any way. Ofcourse we don't. |
| dcparris Mar 28, 2007 4:20 PM EDT |
Sander: It did wind up in another thread somehow. No problem. |
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