Kinda Discouraging
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| beirwin Mar 17, 2007 3:21 PM EDT |
I'm not really surprised by the survey's findings, but it would be nice if *one* PC manufacturer has caught the clue train. |
| tuxchick Mar 17, 2007 4:53 PM EDT |
It's funny how the ones who bother to respond make it sound like this terrible, unresolveable problem - "oh noes, how do we not install a operating system??" Yeah, that's a poser all right. |
| mvermeer Mar 18, 2007 3:54 AM EDT |
tuxchick: who was it that wrote "the most impressive manifestation of power is restraint"? They obviously lack that power. |
| hkwint Mar 18, 2007 5:13 AM EDT |
It's funny, it's about the same answers I got in the Netherlands. Acer send me a reply with the ability to send the laptop to their repair center. There is only one such center in my country, and you have to pay for sending your laptop over there and receiving it back. On the other hand, the Netherlands isn't that big; it will never be further than 250km/150miles, but with the current gasoline prices, that still means about at least €31 / $39 for a one way (!) trip if you live on the wrong side of the country. Indeed, Toshiba and HP said they didn't offer a refund since they were not legally obliged too, and Dell and Lenovo told me they would reply, but didn't. Time to complain, I assume. |
| dinotrac Mar 18, 2007 5:34 AM EDT |
>It's funny how the ones who bother to respond make it sound like this terrible, unresolveable problem It's more than simply not installing an OS - but I'm hard-pressed to see how much more. I realize that systems have to be modified in all the places that systems do what they do, etc...but A no-OS PC must be simpler than a Linux PC. After all...what can anybody imagine your support obligations to be? |
| jsusanka Mar 18, 2007 7:37 AM EDT |
"Ranjit Atwal, Gartner principal analyst, is pessimistic about the future for naked PCs. "The market for Linux is probably not big enough for them [suppliers] to go down that route," said Atwal, adding that he thought the number of users wanting to use Linux at the desktop was "in the small single digits"." to me this is the whole problem. - the demand shouldn't matter - of course after ten years of having microsoft installed by default there isn't going to be a demand - it should be advertised right up there with the "we recommend microsoft vista" line because the customer should always always always have a choice of not having windows on their computer. it is beyond me why the doj lets this go on and on. who knows maybe the government wants to install the keystroke loggers and spyware on folks and that is just about impossible with linux unless it is hardware base and so you have to ship your pewter back to them for them to do that. there is a war on terror you know and we are all guilty until proven innocent. okay back to reality there is no demand because all the people who don't want windows are just accustomed to accepting that building your own is your only option. they need to have this no os option period - for all time and no matter if there is a demand or not - and advertise it just like they do windows. to me it shows a flawed business model when they depend on so much of microsoft's money that they can't escape it. thank goodness for the system76.com vendors who are taking the plunge and doing all they can - those are the vendors who get my money. |
| tuxchick Mar 18, 2007 10:12 AM EDT |
""Ranjit Atwal, Gartner principal analyst, is pessimistic about the future for naked PCs. "The market for Linux is probably not big enough for them [suppliers] to go down that route," said Atwal, adding that he thought the number of users wanting to use Linux at the desktop was "in the small single digits"."" What about customers who want to install Solaris or some other unix, or who don't want Vista, but have an old winduhs XP or 2000 CD they would prefer to install? It's not just Linux customers who want nekked computers. I don't see any way to spin "Customers must purchase an operating system with every PC", which of course means winduz, as anything other than illegal collusion and abuse of monopoly power. |
| bigg Mar 18, 2007 11:42 AM EDT |
> "in the small single digits"." Meaning it's "only" ten million or so? Yeah, pretty small market. > it is beyond me why the doj lets this go on and on I read through the settlement again this weekend. It's very clear that Microsoft is not allowed to retailiate, so that takes away one major argument (provided it's enforced) that always comes up. |
| Abe Mar 18, 2007 1:57 PM EDT |
Quoting:"Top five PC manufacturers fail naked PC test " I am puzzled by how we let our emotions run wild. One lackey journalist lights a match and we jump on pouring gasoline. This article is mischief and devious. I think the intention here is to let the public believe that no serious OEM would support FOSS, So why bother with it, FOSS doesn't stand a chance. The fact is, HP, the largest and most popular OEM DOES offer and support a naked PC. The author admits that HP informed him about their offering of naked PCs but failed to send him the link, or so he calims. Here are the links that prove it. Is it that hard to find these links? Not at all, you go to the main page of the HP site,select"Small & Medium Business", and there you have it. Every single model of the business desktop is available with FreeDOS and also available for purchase by consumers right of the internet site http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF02d/12454-12454-64... Quoting: HP Compaq dc7700 USDT- HP Compaq dc7700 Ultra slim desktop Genuine Windows® XP Professional Intel® Core 2 Duo E6300 (1.86/1066/2M) 1GB PC2-5300 (DDR2-667) 2x512 80GB SATA 3.0Gb/s (7200rpm) hard drive 1st Slim 24X/24X/24X/8X DVD-CDRW Combo Drive (Not available with Vista OS) Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3000 HP PS/2 Standard Keyboard HP PS/2 2-Button Optical Scroll Mouse HP dc7700 Country Kit dc7700 USDT chassis E-Star 3.0 HP 3-year (parts/labor/next business day on-site) limited warranty - dc7700 USDT $1151.00 Quoting: HP Compaq dc7700 USDT Desktop Alternate OS HP Compaq dc7700 Ultra slim desktop FreeDOS Intel® Core 2 Duo E6300 (1.86/1066/2M) 1GB PC2-5300 (DDR2-667) 2x512 80GB SATA 3.0Gb/s (7200rpm) hard drive 1st Slim 24X/24X/24X/8X DVD-CDRW Combo NoS/W Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3000 HP PS/2 Standard Keyboard HP PS/2 2-Button Optical Scroll Mouse HP dc7700 Country Kit dc7700 USDT chassis E-Star 3.0 HP 3-year (parts/labor/next business day on-site) limited warranty - dc7700 USDT $991.01 Exactly the same hardware configuration right of HP web site which all you have to do is check out the Basket and supply your credit card #. That is a saving of $160.00, which is the cost of XP Professional S**t. Instead of keep begging Dell, why don't we spread the word about the availability of such desktops. Instead of keep complaining about no support, why don't we create a support network on the Internet to just do that? I guess it is time to stop our complaining and complaisance and do something about it. Don't you think! Why doesn't K/Ubuntu, Debian, PCLinuxOS, Mepis, etc... offer support for such PCs? I guess we shouldn't blame anyone else any more and start blaming ourselves. |
| dinotrac Mar 18, 2007 3:03 PM EDT |
Abe - You make a great point. Screw Dell. Buy HP -- or any of a number of other vendors who offer Linux boxes and naked pcs. |
| tracyanne Mar 18, 2007 4:41 PM EDT |
Here's my personal take on the number of people using Linux, either full time or part time. First there is, in my opinion, a large uncounted number of fairly ordinary, no techie, no power, Linux users ot there, probably 3 to 5 times the numbers that are ever included in any surveys. Like the vast majority of Windows users these people never get involved in an surveys or anything that would get them counted. I think a great many of them sort of soldier on, in spite of any difficulties they might have, for much the same reasons that I soldiered on in the beginning - for all the problems there is something about Linux that they find so much better than windows (for me it was security, lack of viruses and the absence of what I saw as a growing lack of respect for me the customer, from Microsoft). I say this because in my role, on a number of Social network forums, as resident guru :: roll eyes ::, even though I keep directing people to the Linux Forums, where they will obviously get much better help they keep coming to me and asking my help. That's fine for me in many ways, because I keep learning new things, which I can them pass back. My point here is that these people are effectively invisible. They've purchased a computer with Windows pre installed, so that's a Windows sale, not a Linux sale, used it for a while, decided that they aren't all that happy with the experience, and looked around for something else/better and decided to try Linux. |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 18, 2007 4:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:It's not just Linux customers who want nekked computers. Nekked? Methinks you browse too much pr0n ;-) |
| Abe Mar 18, 2007 5:02 PM EDT |
Dino - It is getting to be annoying with all these journalist talking about nothing but, "Linux is not ready for desktop", "OEMs are not supporting Linux", "Linux is too hard for a novice to use". It is getting ridiculous and cliche. There are many success stories by Linux converts but not enough by journalist. I guess so far MS has been successful in keeping journals under their payroll. There has been so much progress and improvements in FOSS last couple years to boggle many minds, but all that is only getting attention by very few journalists. It is time for the FOSS community to step up and do something about. Helping out outfits like HP and others who offer Linux desktop is one way to break the cycle and the mind set that is constantly being spread by the MS lackeys. It is time for some action besides all that posting. Distributors should start offering support either for free or for a nominal cost. Without support, consumers are not going to make the switch easily. A plan has to be put in place to make "2007 the year of Linux desktop". |
| tracyanne Mar 18, 2007 5:22 PM EDT |
Abe, I agree. The problem for Linux distributors is that they make their money on Support. On the other hand they do give a lot of support free. Just go to the Mandriva Forums and the main posters also work for Mandriva. The thing that needs to be done is to get the message out, cut through the Linux is too hard crap. We need to Market Linux in ways that it's not being marketed right now. I think the Distributors need to come together for a start, and create a Market presence, maybe even a marketing company or as a group hire a marketing company to get the message out. |
| jdixon Mar 18, 2007 8:21 PM EDT |
> The fact is, HP, the largest and most popular OEM DOES offer and support a naked PC. Yes. Unfortunately, their low end model seems to be about $70 more than an equivalent Dell system. The default setting HP Compaq DX2250 with a DVD burner added is $510. The equivalent default setting Dell Dimension C521n with a DVD burner is $440. Finding the Dell is not significantly harder than finding the HP. Just go to the small business desktops page and select Open-Source Desktops from the left hand menu. |
| tracyanne Mar 18, 2007 9:04 PM EDT |
None of this is quite so easy in Australia. I've been on HP's Asia call centre, which handles Australia, It takes a lot of talking to an actual person before they will actually make any concession tom the possibility that you could get a computer without MS Windows on it. I was shunted back and forth between Malaysia and India before I managed to get a Salesman (actually a Manager) to even admit to the possibility that I might be able to get a computer sans Windows. Apparently you can get a CTO version, a Customer speced computer, with Linux on it, but they don't tell you that up front. You have to be very very very insistent that it should be possible. I've been taling to a manager at the Malaysia call centre. I had to go, as I had other things i needed to do, but told him I would call back later. So I'll post prices when I get them. At the moment he's talking about the NC8000, NX 7400, and NW8440 in laptops, as supporting Linux and 3D graphics. |
| Abe Mar 19, 2007 8:38 AM EDT |
Quoting:Yes. Unfortunately, their low end model seems to be about $70 more than an equivalent Dell system. You need to make sure you are getting the same hardware configuration, support and quality of components. Dell web site options are so convoluted and I wouldn't want to touch it. They have razzle-dazzle pricing that would confuse the heck out of any one. I straight out don't trust them. Besides, the issue here is offering a no OS desktops and Dell doesn't offer that for all models. HP has the option on every business models and you can compare. If Dell offers the same, I am happy. If you have a comparison chart, please post them. Any ways, I never liked Dell's PC. They are simply cheap in quality and I think that is where HP is killing them after people started realizing what they are getting for low cost. You get what you pay for and you pay for what you want.. |
| jdixon Mar 19, 2007 9:29 AM EDT |
> You need to make sure you are getting the same hardware configuration, support and quality of components... This was with almost exactly the same hardware and support terms. Quality of components and support are not something I'm equipped to judge, not being a customer of either company. > Besides, the issue here is offering a no OS desktops and Dell doesn't offer that for all models. I can't be sure they offer it on all models, but they do offer it on most. > They are simply cheap in quality... I can't argue with that. > If you have a comparison chart, please post them. I'll try to provide links to the two machines in question later today. |
| jdixon Mar 19, 2007 10:41 AM EDT |
OK, I want to configure a low end desktop machine without Windows for home use. Both Dell and HP require me to select their business line to get to their no OS machines, and then to select a non-intuitive option to get to them (Open-Source Desktops in the Dell's case, and Configure Freedos PC in HP's). Dell's low end line is the Dimension, though you will be fooled by the fact that the listed Dimension price is higher than that of the Optiplex. HP's low end line is the DX2250. The Dell Dimension C521n with an Athlon 64 single core processor is here: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=0... and the HP DX2250 is here: http://h71016.www7.hp.com/dstore/MiddleFrame.asp?page=config... I configure both with an Athlon 3500+ (which is the cheapest processor they have in common), and 80 GB hard drive, and the only non-low end part on the list, a 16X DVD burner. I remove the 15" flat panel monitor from the Dell. Both machines have onboard graphics, onboard sound, onboard networking, keyboard, mouse, no modem, no floppy, and no speakers. I select the one year warranty and service on each. Prices and options must have changed since I posted last night, because now the HP comes in at $462, while the Dell comes in at $459. If, on the other hand, I go for a dual core system, things change considerably. The Dell options no longer allow for either 512 MB of memory or an 80 GB hard drive, but instead require 1 GB of memory and a 160 GB hard drive. You have to select a different link to get to the Dell dual core system, it's at: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=0... This Dell, with no other changes, comes in at $499, but the equivalent equipped machine from HP comes in at $601. I expect most Linux users would prefer a dual core system if they can afford one, and at only $40 more, the Dell looks good. The short version of the story is that Dell consistently meets or beats HP on price for a consumer grade system. :( I doubt their quality is as good, but most people have to get burned at least once before they learn that lesson, and their quality may be good enough for their customers. The real question is, is either machine certified Linux compatible. I can't find anything on either site indicating such, but I haven't had time to look extensively. I know the MSI Geforce 6100 motherboard we just bought for my wife has major problems with Linux. Video, networking, and sound all have problems, though the video looks fixable, and does work with the vesa driver. |
| tracyanne Mar 19, 2007 5:51 PM EDT |
quote:: At the moment he's talking about the NC8000, NX 7400, and NW8440 in laptops, as supporting Linux and 3D graphics. :: Further to my conversations with HP Asia . OK HP do have Linux certified Laptops and Desktops. Apparently all of their Business range have been tested with Desktop Linux and certified as Linux Compatable. But here's the rub. HP Asia won't sell you a computer pre installed with Linux. You have to go to an HP reseller, who will charge you the cost of the computer as it comes to them - which includes the full license cost for MS Windows - on top of that they will charge you to remove Windows, and then charge you the additional labour costs of installing Linux. So for the NW8440, which is high 3D graphics capable it comes with the ATI mobility FireGL V5200 video card, one would pay $AU3908.00 + GST plus the labour cost of reformating the Drive and Installing a Linux Distribution of your choice. There are no advertisements for Linux anywhere on the HP Australia web site, and nothing anywhere to indicate that Linux might even be any sort of option, even this rather scummy one. |
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