contrast and compare
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| pat Mar 07, 2007 6:16 PM EDT |
>>Linux server revenue grew slightly in the fourth quarter of 2006, according to the latest research from IDC. >>Linux server revenue grew 15.3% in the fourth quarter of 2006, compared to the same quarter a year ago. Now, if your boss comes and and says you are going to get a slight raise point him/her to this article and ask him/her if this is what they mean by slight. |
| tracyanne Mar 07, 2007 6:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:This represents around 12% of the overall all server revenue worldwide. Comparatively, Linux falls behind Windows, with 35% of worldwide revenue, and Unix, with 33.5% of server revenue. (Linux just barely beat out IBM's Z/OS mainframe in terms of revenue.) Those are revenue figures, it tells us nothing about actual Linux implementations, and given that both Windows and Proprietary Unix are both more expensive than Linux this figure could easily represent several times the figures for actual Windows and Proprietary Unix implementations. |
| number6x Mar 08, 2007 6:34 AM EDT |
12% of the revenue pie is a big deal. Hopefully Michael Dell is aware that he could increase his gross revenue if he embraced Linux sales. More importantly, investors have to start letting Microsoft know that they are not happy with the software giant standing between them and greater profits. How many other companies could be more profitable if they used more Linux and reduced their operating costs? I thought that last year's figures put Linux at about 26% in terms of server shipments. This article does not have the estimates for units shipped. Together the 12% of revenue and 26% of units show how much cheaper Linux is to aquire. This really undercuts a lot of FUD. |
| dinotrac Mar 08, 2007 7:11 AM EDT |
>Hopefully Michael Dell is aware that he could increase his gross revenue if he embraced Linux sales. These are server numbers and Dell already sells Linux servers. |
| number6x Mar 08, 2007 8:46 AM EDT |
thanks dino. |
| Abe Mar 08, 2007 8:53 AM EDT |
We keep talking about Dell as if the whole FOSS/Linux future depends on it. As long as Dell keeps getting their bonuses by the end of the year every year from MS, they will never commit to pre-installed Linux on their desktops. The latest news tell us why they are making noises about Linux on their desktops lately. They are going with Suse because MS allows it and blessing it. Their arm is being twisted because of the deal HP is in the process of making for thousands of dollars They see many large organizations planning to role out Linux desktops in the future (US DOT, FCC etc) Indiana & California school districts; Mass, Texas, Minnesota adopting ODF, EU, Japans school districts etc... Many many others who have been investigating and now they see a good feasible approach to start deploying Linux desktops and accepting a non-homogenous operations. Forget them. Things are shaping up and Dell sees that. They are going to be dragged even though they don't like it or don't want it. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 08, 2007 9:07 AM EDT |
I agree with abe - what needs to happen is to get a vendor like Emperor Computers putting their wares (at lower prices) in mainstream outfits like BestBuy, Fry's, and CompUSA. Then maybe the big boys will follow suit when they start losing sales to cheaper Linux computers. Of course, there'd have to be an innovative marketing push like "This PC runs an industrial-grade OS that's better than MS-Windows" |
| dinotrac Mar 08, 2007 9:10 AM EDT |
>I agree with abe - what needs to happen is to get a vendor like Emperor Computers putting their wares (at lower prices) in mainstream outfits like BestBuy, Fry's, and CompUSA. I don't know...Microtel at Wal-Mart is pretty low-priced already. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 08, 2007 9:13 AM EDT |
Dino, last I checked (about 4 years ago), the Microtel computers pre-loaded with Linux were available online only through walmart.com ... Has that changed? |
| dinotrac Mar 08, 2007 9:18 AM EDT |
>Has that changed I thought it had, but I really don't know. |
| tuxtom Mar 08, 2007 9:38 AM EDT |
I was at Fry's recently and noticed they have apparently discontinued the GQ (Great Quality) line of cheap PC's, many of which came with Linspire pre-installed (CD media was also included). They were available for about $200+/-. I have one of these I bought for $199 out-the-door around 3 years ago...Athlon 2000+...and it's still going strong. I never used the Linspire (MEPIS guy), but I remember driving home that night with a big grin astonished by two things: 1) I just bought a new boxed PC for $199, and 2) I just bought a new boxed PC with Linux pre-installed. It came with full documentation, too. Motherboard manual and all. Personally, I think a bigger PR push needs to be made to let people know they DON'T need a new PC from Michael Dell, and that Linux will give them a screaming fast and secure desktop without having to upgrade to new hardware. That is where the real value lies for the average Joe. The Microsoft "tax" bundled with a new PC is insignificant to the average consumer...not having to buy that new PC "is" significant. Regarding Linux having 26% of server shipments: Does that number take into account servers shipped with no OS purchased/installed/specified with the hardware? A lot of servers get sold bare with no OS on the PO/Invoice, and I think that it is specifically Linux/OSS shops that would be inclined to buy their server hardware that way. That would skew the hell out of those stats. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 08, 2007 9:49 AM EDT |
tuxtom, You have a very good point. Yesterday I received this email from a guy I know through Church: Quoting: Hi Darren: I received the info on UbuntuCE from Pastor Pat. It looks like a good program. I've heard of Linux before and knew it was an alternative operating system. Is this something you can download and install and choose to either run Linux or MS depending on your needs at the time?I got that email in response to an email about Ubuntu Christian Edition that I sent to the Pastor to be forwarded to the congregation's mailing list. |
| bigg Mar 08, 2007 9:56 AM EDT |
I can't get a no-OS retail computer where I live. Do any of these places (like Fry's) offer Linux laptops? Desktop computers are a dying breed. Having spent time with Vista Home Basic, I can say Linux looks pretty good. Vista Home Basic barely crawls along on a machine with 512 MB of RAM (without running any apps, it uses about 420 MB of RAM). Mepis installed on the same machine does not run circles around Vista because "running circles" is a serious understatement. Mepis also comes with the extras, like a 3D desktop. Microsoft is in trouble if they don't see problems. Not that I'm the first person to point that out, but a retailer like WalMart could use this to get their foot in the door on electronics sales, which I've read is something they want to do. |
| tuxtom Mar 08, 2007 10:23 AM EDT |
bigg - Fry's used to sell Laptops under the GQ brand, but they were junk. There are a lot of places to get no-OS or Linux laptops, but they are specialty vendors usually found online, not retail store-front chains. Many of them are top-notch retailers who stand behind the products they sell. One dirty little secret most of the public doesn't know is that laptops are manufactured by a relatively small number of Asian firms, and that the biggies like Dell, etc., just have branded model from these manufacturers. Some OEM's might have closer relationships, but that is not the point. The point is that you can purchase laptops from the same manufacturers that aren't branded with the big retail name and without an OS that are the same or higher quality. Do some googling. |
| Abe Mar 08, 2007 11:59 AM EDT |
Quoting:I don't know...Microtel at Wal-Mart is pretty low-priced already. True but consumers don't have hardware or software choice. They don't even have support. Quoting:outfits like BestBuy, Fry's, and CompUSA. These could do but they don't have the expertise or resources. And if they have the resource, the cost to the consumer would be prehitive. Outfits like Connanical, Red Hat, Mandriva, etc... would be a much better outfits to venture into the market of selling PC hardware and Linux support. Here is a scenario: What if Canonical started a venture to build their own PCs using of the shelf components, or purchase them in bulk from HP, Dell or whom ever. They already have a support center and good Internet support Forum. They expand that to include paid volunteers who have access to that Forum and available via phone and will get paid a nominal amount per call by Connanical. The consumer calls go to the central group where a ticket is created for each call. Those calls get distributed to the local volunteer support bucket who in turn deal with the consumer. The volunteers will install Linux and apps and configure the desktop per user requirement and even deliver the machine to the consumer. For support, the volunteers will do whatever it takes to resolve issues that might arise and help answer consumer questions. If the volunteers can't resolve the issue, the central group would step in to help. Those volunteers, instead of wasting their time chatting and posting, they would chat, post and help consumers and at the same time get paid a little. Wouldn't you think that many would volunteer? I happen to think that there would be many and they would be happy and excited about doing that. After all, it is a community thing, isn't it? Who the heck needs BestBuy, Fry's, and CompUSA or HP Dell or MS for that matter. |
| jimf Mar 08, 2007 12:47 PM EDT |
> They expand that to include paid volunteers who have access to that Forum and available via phone and will get paid a nominal amount per call by Connanical. 'Paid volunteers' is a total oxymoron and an insult to the volunteer. I do voluntary support for Debian based Distros. I 'might' be interested in doing support for a company like Canonical, but, for a 'nominal' amount? I don't think so. Canonical is making money here. Either pay to make it worth my time, or, I'll just continue to do it on a totally voluntary basis as I do now (just not for Canonical). |
| dcparris Mar 08, 2007 2:20 PM EDT |
> I can't get a no-OS retail computer where I live. Bigg, are you afraid to try the vendors in our database? Honestly, that's exactly why we created it. And you will find a wide range of hardware and Linux or no-OS desktops, laptops and servers. I'm just curious. |
| jimf Mar 08, 2007 2:25 PM EDT |
> the vendors in our database? Yeah, I just recomended one of those to a friend. Looked to be a heck of a deal for the money. |
| Abe Mar 08, 2007 2:41 PM EDT |
Quoting:'Paid volunteers' is a total oxymoron and an insult to the volunteerNo it is not. To my knowledge, volunteer fire fighters do get paid nominal amounts, Peace Corp. get paid nominal amounts. The reason they get paid is to cover some expenses and encourage volunteering by all sorts of people, rich and poor that some can't afford spending their own money on volunteer work. What most people volunteer is their time and efforts. If you can afford the misc. expenses and don't want to get paid, that is even better. But is not insulting. Students are good candidates and many would love to do that if it helps them in the process. You don't want to call them volunteers, call it whatever you like. Slave labor or community contributors, what is the difference, it is all in the perspective. Quoting:Canonical is making money here.May be, may be not. The objective here is to help FOSS proliferate, not to make money and get rich. I am not naive to think that Canonical does intend to make or is not in it for the money, they will have their chance to make their money from businesses not regular consumers. I just used Canonical as an example and one who has the capital resources. If Debian or PCLinusOS, or whomever for that matter, want to do the same, the more the better. |
| bigg Mar 08, 2007 2:45 PM EDT |
> Bigg, are you afraid to try the vendors in our database? Actually, I was just curious about whether laptops with Linux are for sale in retail outlets. The trend is for people to buy laptops, but as we don't have any of those retailers here, I didn't know if they sold Linux laptops. When I do buy a new computer for myself, I will consider the database. |
| dcparris Mar 08, 2007 3:39 PM EDT |
bigg: Thanks for the input. You had aroused my own curiosity. Abe: I was a volunteer ambulance driver (First Responder), and never got any pay for it. I'm not sure any of the EMT/Paramedics got paid, either. I have to say, though, we were as committed a team as any in that neck of the woods. However, you are correct that a number of people receive stipends for their volunteer efforts. I received a small stipend for my ministry efforts at a couple of churches, despite not being on the payroll. |
| jimf Mar 08, 2007 3:52 PM EDT |
> volunteer fire fighters do get paid nominal amounts, Peace Corp. get paid nominal amounts. Very true, but they're not 'for profit' Corporate entities. That get's into an entirely different thing... So again, Canonical is making money here. They need to pay anyone doing phone support for them the full going rate. To do otherwise is just a scam. > The objective here is to help FOSS proliferate I'm not seeing that. If you really want to volunteer for support, there are a lot of better places to expend your effort. |
| Abe Mar 08, 2007 4:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:Very true, but they're not 'for profit' Corporate entitiesYour are not really doing it for "for profit Corp", your are doing it for every one to benefit from FOSS. In the process the corp will too benefit indirectly. The point is, if Debian can do it, I would prefer them over a Corp. Quoting:I'm not seeing thatIf you don't see it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Again, the idea is to join with an entity that is capable of doing what is needed to be done. Does Debian have the capital to start a PC business venture? I doubt it. Not too long ago they were arguing whether programmers should be paid or not! And if to be paid, then who? Quoting:If you really want to volunteer for support, there are a lot of better places to expend your effort.The issue is not where to volunteer, the issue is who and how to break the chicken and egg cycle. Linux needs OEM pre-installed PC, OEMs claim not enough demand. Solution: create an OEM who can and able to create the demand. |
| Abe Mar 08, 2007 5:00 PM EDT |
Quoting:I have to say, though, we were as committed a team as any in that neck of the woods.Volunteers are mostly caring, dedicated, committed, with conviction people who enjoy what they do. That is why volunteer work is mostly best in quality. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 08, 2007 5:01 PM EDT |
The unwashed masses that we'll need to reach if we want to get real Linux propagation to displace MS-Windows in the desktop arena don't shop at "niche" vendors. They shop at big retailers like Wal-Mart, Sears, BestBuy, Circuit City. If they don't already own a computer, they certainly aren't likely to be going to the public library to order a PC online. There is a very large population out there that uses a dial-up service like NetZero and PeoplePC as their only internet connection. And as unpopular as AOL is for this crowd, it still is the sole "internets" experience for a much larger group of people. If we want widespread acceptance for Linux, we are going to have to find a way to reach the Wal-Mart shopping, Bellsouth DSL using, redneck crowd that lives in the backwoods. Those are the sort of people that believe Bill Gates invented the Internets. |
| Abe Mar 08, 2007 5:14 PM EDT |
Quoting:If we want widespread acceptance for Linux, we are going to have to find a way to reach the Wal-Mart shopping, Bellsouth DSL using If we can reach students and professionals alone, that would be a huge portion who can influence the rest. |
| jimf Mar 08, 2007 5:36 PM EDT |
> Your are not really doing it for "for profit Corp", your are doing it for every one to benefit from FOSS. Sorry, I just don't agree. > how to break the chicken and egg cycle. Well maybe, but, I don't think that's the way to do it. That said, I certainly can't stop those who are fool enough to buy the scam. |
| dcparris Mar 08, 2007 5:59 PM EDT |
I'm with Jim on this one. I would not be willing to provide support for a nominal fee under the auspices of a for-profit company. Pastors get paid to build volunteer communities, and I could go for that. But I have no interest in volunteering for a for-profit enterprise. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 09, 2007 3:55 AM EDT |
abe, Professionals aren't necessarily much better than the unwashed masses I was talking about. I've worked with many a cheapskate doctor who aren't comfortable with anything but what they can buy from a big-name store, supposedly because they have less risk of being left to their own devices for IT support. These people will readily admit that they are not computer literate. But that doesn't mean they are stupid or that they want to be treated like they are. One doctor I helped move offices 7 years ago was still using MS-DOS 6. Why? Because she didn't want to spend the $1500 to upgrade the billing package she had - it still worked so why bother?. And I've found just as many lawyers to be much the same. In the construction engineering firms - if it isn't Autocad, forget it. The idea with FOSS has always been where there's an itch, scratch it. So the question we need to answer is: Where do the professionals and students shop for IT needs? Where do they itch? We cannot reasonably expect them to come to us - we need to meet them on their turf. And their turf is in the big name retailers: Office Depot, Office Max, CompUSA, etc. |
| jdixon Mar 09, 2007 5:18 AM EDT |
> There is a very large population out there that uses a dial-up service like NetZero and PeoplePC as their only internet connection. For a significant portion of that population, dialup is their ownly available option. :( |
| Abe Mar 09, 2007 7:26 AM EDT |
Quoting:Sorry, I just don't agree.That is the prerogative of everyone but it doesn't mean everyone agrees with you either. How do you explain the many people who contribute to K/Ubuntu and spend much of their time on its forum? Aren't many of them volunteers? Quoting:Professionals aren't necessarily much better than the unwashed masses I was talking about.But usually these groups are more enlightened about the issues and more receptive to new ideas. Then again, what else could we do? we can't win them all, can we? Quoting:I don't think that's the way to do itYou haven't given me a good reason why not, do you have a better approach? We have been trying to break that cycle by enticing the major OEMs and haven't been very successful. Or at least, it hasn't been easy or quick enough in our opinion. MS has been more successful in keeping those OEMs in their corner by offering them lucrative incentives. FOSS doesn't have that luxury. So what do you suggest we do? Quoting:The idea with FOSS has always been where there's an itch, scratch it. needs?Not any more for an itch, and the itch could be different than just needing a software tool or feature. It could be saving money, better and more reliable software, not to be dependent on a convicted monopolist, and the list goes on. Quoting:So the question we need to answer is: Where do the professionals and students shop for IT where they already shop?Office Depot, Office Max, CompUSA, etc. all follow and go along with the major OEMs, so it is the same problem as the OEMs. Why not have a new OEM that can work with these outfits? Besides, why does it have to be one of these outfits any way if it has been difficult to convince them to come along? |
| DarrenR114 Mar 09, 2007 8:28 AM EDT |
Quoting: >Why not have a new OEM that can work with these outfits? I think that's probably the best solution. The next question is: How do we get that? What would it take for the corporate buyers for these guys to take on a Linux-based OEM? |
| Abe Mar 09, 2007 9:45 AM EDT |
Quoting:The next question is: How do we get that? What would it take for the corporate buyers for these guys to take on a Linux-based OEM?Hmm, I thought I gave my initial suggestion. I guess that was good enough. Well, here is another one. Variuos Linux distributors get together and pool in some of the resource and offer supported hardware and contribute to a software support network (volunteers included). That would also be open for FOSS investors. Heck form a company with share holders from the community with some sort of rules and guidlines. when FOSS becomes largely popular, don't you think there will be various support centers created offering support for a fee? It is a fact of life, it exists already but to a limited extent and will expand. And why does it have to be the same old guys? |
| jimf Mar 09, 2007 9:50 AM EDT |
> How do you explain the many people who contribute to K/Ubuntu and spend much of their time on its forum? Aren't many of them volunteers? Abe, you keep mixing up the volunteers in the 'not for profit', and the 'justifiably paid employees' of a Corporation. I'd have no problem with volunteering support for K/Ubuntu, or even Open SuSe or Fedora. Canonical, Red Hat, and Novell are quite another matter. Corporate entities are out to make a profit for the stockholder, and as such need to remember the axiom "It's the cost of doing business". That's a phrase that all of them would all love to forget, but true none the less. |
| Abe Mar 09, 2007 10:49 AM EDT |
Quoting:you keep mixing up the volunteers in the 'not for profit',People have the choice not to volunteer, no one twisting any arms. Quoting:Corporate entities are out to make a profit for the stockholder,...Do you have a problem with Corporations making money? Again, the main goal here is to get FOSS to proliferate even with the help from Corporations who want to make money. You have got to give them some incentive to help. Making reasonable money is better than kickbacks given by you know who. Please, don't give me the line of "Either you are with us or against us!" |
| tuxtom Mar 09, 2007 11:19 AM EDT |
LXer is owned by a corporation. Is LXer only out to make a profit for its stockholders (a.k.a. owners)? Are the editors "volunteers" or are they "justifiably paid employees"? Is WebMarket, Inc. a "not-for-profit"? Many "not-for-profits" are extremely lucrative for the individuals running them. It is merely an accounting distinction, not a moral one, though it is usually put into practice under moral auspices. "Not-for-profit" does not mean "not-out-to-make-money"...the truth is quite the opposite. (I'm not implying anything negative about LXer, I'm just making an illustration for the sake of argument.) |
| jimf Mar 09, 2007 11:42 AM EDT |
> Do you have a problem with Corporations making money? As a rule, no, but, I do think that we always have to be suspicious of Corporate motivations. > Please, don't give me the line of "Either you are with us or against us!" No, that line is all yours Abe ;-) |
| Abe Mar 09, 2007 11:42 AM EDT |
Quoting:(I'm not implying anything negative about LXer, I'm just making an illustration for the sake of argument.) Tuxtom, Thanks for mentioning it. It illustrates the point very well. If I might add, take Mozilla for instance, last year they made over $60 million from Google proceeds. FireFox is all built by volunteers who some of them got rewarded and others didn't Kubuntu is built by volunteers just like Fedora. Although they get some funding from Canonical but I don't think Canonical controls them. There are many other examples. |
| bigg Mar 09, 2007 11:55 AM EDT |
If people want to volunteer for a for-profit company, that is fine with me. Programmers can also volunteer for Microsoft if they want. I'm skeptical that you'd have a lot of people saying "let me donate my time so you can make money off of the code written by other people." Perhaps they would, but as an empirical matter, I doubt it. |
| Abe Mar 09, 2007 12:02 PM EDT |
Quoting:No, that line is all yours Abe ;-) Hay Thanks, I need to use that some times! Quoting:but, I do think that we always have to be suspicious of Corporate motivations. No doubt, I strongly agree |
| jimf Mar 09, 2007 12:03 PM EDT |
> (I'm not implying anything negative about LXer, I'm just making an illustration for the sake of argument.) All you're illustrating is the convolution of the legal structure, and, of how some people pervert it to their own benefit. Some will do that no matter what the label. Again, it pays to be suspicious. At this point, I guess you have to go on past history, and to some extent on gut feeling. LXer passes that test with flying colors for me. Not so much with Canonical. |
| jimf Mar 09, 2007 12:26 PM EDT |
> If I might add, take Mozilla for instance Ooh... that one still smarts... I well remember Netscape starting the Mozilla project to save their dieing business. In that case the scam of getting people to work for free backfired and Mozilla became the dominant survivor... ironic in the extreme. Still, that was not fair treatment of the volunteers, and, I still have very mixed feelings about Mozilla, even though they've long ago cleaned up their act. |
| tuxtom Mar 09, 2007 6:21 PM EDT |
"All you're illustrating is the convolution of the legal structure, and, of how some people pervert it to their own benefit..." That statement just about sums up whichever side of the issue one happens to find oneself on. I, too, am suspicious of corporate motivations, but I am equally suspicious of any hard-line, far-right or far-left motivations...including the protestations of the more fervent proponents of the FOSS movement. |
| dinotrac Mar 10, 2007 1:55 AM EDT |
>If people want to volunteer for a for-profit company, that is fine with me. Programmers can also volunteer for Microsoft if they want. As it is, people working on free software projects without pay are volunteering to work for IBM, RedHat, Novell, Canonical, the company I'm working at for the next few weeks, and any other corporation that packages, installs, sells services around, or uses free software. |
| bigg Mar 10, 2007 5:36 AM EDT |
> As it is, people working on free software projects without pay are volunteering to work for IBM, RedHat, Novell, Canonical, the company I'm working at for the next few weeks, and any other corporation that packages, installs, sells services around, or uses free software. Quite true, but they are not volunteering to work as what would essentially be "unpaid employees". They are simply giving away the software and allowing companies to benefit from it. |
| swbrown Mar 10, 2007 5:49 AM EDT |
> As it is, people working on free software projects without pay are volunteering to work for IBM, RedHat, Novell, Canonical, No, they are hiring IBM, RedHat, Novell, and Canonical to distribute and maintain their software for free. |
| dinotrac Mar 10, 2007 6:29 AM EDT |
>No, they are hiring IBM, RedHat, Novell, and Canonical to distribute and maintain their software for free. And not feeling bad if people make a profit in the process. There are lots of organizational arrangements. There are non-profits where the organization may not make any money, but the administrators rake in big bucks. There are companies that make handsome profits and still manage to do Lots of Good Stuff -- more than many non-profits. Making money ain't evil. We all do it or we don't have a place to live, food to eat, and a way to take care of our kids. The real question when you volunteer is whether you are doing the good that you think you are doing. |
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