ESR is a weenie
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| swbrown Feb 21, 2007 6:14 PM EDT |
"I have watched Ubuntu rise to these challenges as Fedora fell away from them. Canonical's recent deal with Linspire, which will give Linux users legal access to WMF and other key proprietary codecs, is precisely the sort of thing Red-Hat/Fedora could and should have taken the lead in." Cry more, nub. |
| dinotrac Feb 21, 2007 6:39 PM EDT |
>Cry more, nub. Oh please. When you respond like that, you make it sound like the lobotomy took more than intended. |
| devnet Feb 21, 2007 7:22 PM EDT |
Wow ESR You've just lowered yourself to competency below that of my 21 year old sister who has been using Linux for less than a year. She's run Fedora the entire time and quite enjoys it. She's had no upgrade problems at all and if she does...I highly doubt she'll write every major Linux news outlet to detail her decision. Get over yourself man. |
| swbrown Feb 21, 2007 8:04 PM EDT |
> Oh please. When you respond like that, you make it sound like the lobotomy took more than intended. Could be worse, I could be defending people like that. Ahem. |
| dinotrac Feb 22, 2007 2:14 AM EDT |
>Could be worse, I could be defending people like that. Ahem. That would only be worse if you did it poorly. When you sound stupid, it doesn't matter which position you take. You and I both know that ESR is many things, but a newbie ain't one of them. |
| swbrown Feb 22, 2007 4:05 AM EDT |
> You and I both know that ESR is many things, but a newbie ain't one of them. I don't think you caught the reference - ESR just pulled a classic World of Warcraft style drama exit. The proper response is either "Cry more, nub" or "Can I have ur stuff?". |
| dthacker Feb 22, 2007 4:09 AM EDT |
I'm not going to comment on the shots and Red Hat/Fedora culture, I'm not qualified. I've been hanging around the Ubuntu bunch for about 6 months now, and overall, it's a very healthy place to learn and use Linux. Ubuntu's install is not perfect, but for me it's easier to deal with than Fedora, SuSE, or Slack. In the last eight years I've moved from a hobbyist to a mass consumer of linux. As a mass consumer I'm most concerned with getting an installation running and keeping it running. I have been in ESR's position for a few projects and I understand his frustration quite well. Call me a weenie if you want, the people who pay me and depend on me to keep their installation running don't care. Ubuntu works well for me, and them. DT |
| swbrown Feb 22, 2007 4:19 AM EDT |
> Call me a weenie if you want, the people who pay me and depend on me to keep their installation running don't care. Ubuntu works well for me, and them. This is not why I called him a weenie. |
| jdixon Feb 22, 2007 5:34 AM EDT |
> or Slack. Well, Slackware's install is a piece of cake. The complaints about Slackware are usually threefold. One, it doesn't handle drive partitioning for you. Two, it doesn't autoconfigure things like sound, video, printers, or Samba for you. Three, it's package system doesn't handle dependencies. All three are valid complaints, but for an experienced system administrator, they're fairly minor. |
| dinotrac Feb 22, 2007 9:13 AM EDT |
>I don't think you caught the reference In that case, I apologize. Not a gamer. |
| hchaudh1 Feb 22, 2007 9:33 AM EDT |
Sigh. |
| herzeleid Feb 22, 2007 9:53 AM EDT |
I'm going to break with tradition here - instead of taking pot shots at esr's style or personality, I'm going to consider his arguments. hmm. There may be something in what he's saying. In the light of his comments about the linux vendor ignoring the existence of proprietary but universally used multimedia formats etc, I had a pleasant experience with a macbook pro which I just bought myself (happy graduation to me), and it's nice to see what a system can be like when all the details like dvd and multimedia playing have been worked out in advance, and not left to the customer to puzzle out. I still consider myself primarily a linux user, but that mac is nice - and some of esr's comments make a lot of sense, like it or not. |
| tuxchick Feb 22, 2007 10:19 AM EDT |
OK, considering ESR's actual arguments: yes, he is a weenie for many reasons. Fedora's policy is to remain 100% Free software. Users who want non-free or patent-encumbered stuff can easily find and install it. But Fedora is not going to include those things. We have Fedora, Debian, Ututo, and gNewSense to choose from for 100% Free distributions. I hardly see a need for more non-Free distributions, and I am glad that the Fedora team have this policy. ESR is having a tantrum because they don't care to change their fundamental policy. As it says on http://fedora.redhat.com/About/: "we'd much rather change the world instead of going along with it." Then ESR whines about how Fedora is behind the times and not doing anything interesting blah blah. Fedora is usually the first distribution to include bleeding-edge kernels, and kewl stuff like SELinux, Xen, Fedora Directory Server, and so forth. Now let's look at his retard 'farewell because you suck, waaahhh' letter to the fedora-devel list. Wow, class act there. ESR has not contributed anything to Fedora except the occasional troll, like this one. But he did have the time and energy to send his farewell letter to masses of news sites, like Linux.com, Linux Today, and several others. Check out the whole thread, it contains lots of useful answers to ESR's ridiculous 'arguments', like how Fedora is all terrible because ESR manually removed a key library, which then broke a whole raft of dependencies. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-Febru... "Weenie" is accurate and apt. So are "dipstick", "waste of space", and "cry me a river, don't let the door hit you." |
| herzeleid Feb 22, 2007 10:35 AM EDT |
Quoting: OK, considering ESR's actual arguments: yes, he is a weenie for many reasons. Fedora's policy is to remain 100% Free software.I think the problem is not just fedora. The majority of distros, with few exceptions, stonewall on the multimedia issues. Sure, freedom from music and movies may sound just swell to some, but others might consider such freedoms somewhat less than satisfying, when what they really wanted to do is watch a movie at starbucks on their nice shiny new linux laptop. Boot to windoze? yuck. Sure, the savvy among us know how to add the repos and install all the cool multimedia stuff, but we are strictly on our own at that point, departing from the vendor supported or sanctioned sphere of activities due to legal fears, and that can get old after awhile. |
| tuxchick Feb 22, 2007 10:39 AM EDT |
herzeleid, I think you just set a record for missing the point. |
| herzeleid Feb 22, 2007 10:49 AM EDT |
Thank you tuxchick, I admire your tenacious D - but as to your perception of my point grasping ability, it's not so much a matter of missing the point, as focusing on one particular theme from esr's arguments. I'm in agreement with most of what you said, it's just that I could not resist digressing a bit to mention the elephant in the room - it's one of my pet peeves, and that talking point of esr's touched a nerve. |
| tuxchick Feb 22, 2007 11:19 AM EDT |
herzeleid, I don't see any shortage of Linux distributions that do support everything in the world out of the box: Mandriva, Linspire/Freespire, Xandros, SUSE, Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Knoppix, and so forth. Multimedia support in Linux is simply not a problem. It's there. It works. It's easy. ESR's tantrum at Fedora for not caving in and changing their 100% Free software policy is akin to ranting at McDonald's for not serving tandoori chicken or curried lamb. Ok, so it's not the best analogy, but he is being a dope. As usual. I hope the Ubuntu folks enjoy having him around. |
| jimf Feb 22, 2007 11:22 AM EDT |
> Sure, the savvy among us know how to add the repos and install all the cool multimedia stuff, but we are strictly on our own at that point, departing from the vendor supported or sanctioned sphere of activities due to legal fears, and that can get old after awhile. You way overstate the problem(?). New users just want to know it can be done and how to do it. Any idiot n00b who can stagger to IRC and requests it , or, go to any of a number of Linux help forums, can and do get assistance with this. I've yet to find a new user who doesn't understand, and, I don't see any getting real upset about the situation. I'd also ask if it's any more bothersome than installing all the drivers, programs, and other garbage on a Windows system. Apparently, the noobs see it that way too. |
| jdixon Feb 22, 2007 11:24 AM EDT |
> I hope the Ubuntu folks enjoy having him around. Well, since Ubuntu seems to be as much about hype as reality, and since Ubuntu and Linspire appear to be in the process of being joined at the hip, they may get along well together. That said: Sending out an open letter when you change distributions??? Eric, get over it. Nobody cares. And, we all already know the limitations of Fedora. Better than you, apparently. |
| tuxchick Feb 22, 2007 11:27 AM EDT |
Oh yeah, jdixon, I forgot about that, and ESR works for Linspire. So I'm sure this whole silly public tantrum has nothing to do with any possible commercial ramifications. |
| herzeleid Feb 22, 2007 1:39 PM EDT |
Quoting: I don't see any shortage of Linux distributions that do support everything in the world out of the box: Mandriva, Linspire/Freespire, Xandros, SUSE, Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Knoppix, and so forth. Multimedia support in Linux is simply not a problem. It's there. It works. It's easy.Sadly, even someone who installs the latest and greatest suse can't play dvds or wmv or quicktime without a trip to the guru and packman repos, and the vlc download site. I've heard that Linspire is set up for these things out of the box, but other than that, I'm not really sure linspire is what I'm looking for. I'd love it the suse folks would take the opensuse vs boxed set approach to it's logical limit. Let the opensuse version continue to be 100% GPL, but for those who are willing to pay, have the boxed set, based on opensuse, include licensed apps and codecs for all the cool multimedia stuff that people want to do with their computers. What I earnestly desire to see is for some linux vendor to grow a pair, stop cowering in fear from the dmca/riaa/bloodsucking lawyers, and negotiate the fees for the necessary licenses. I'd gladly pay extra for a distro that will grant me the right to watch movie trailers without the threat of fines and imprisonment for dmca violations. Come on Novell, how hard could it be to step up and do something useful for your customers? |
| swbrown Feb 22, 2007 5:05 PM EDT |
> Oh yeah, jdixon, I forgot about that, and ESR works for Linspire. So I'm sure this whole silly public tantrum has nothing to do with any possible commercial ramifications. Oh God, he's not preparing to write another "Surprised By Wealth", is he? http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=1999-12-10-00... |
| jhansonxi Feb 22, 2007 7:02 PM EDT |
I tried Fedora 6 including the Unity respin for Jan 2007 but I had persistent networking problems with localhost resolution and samba access. I also found their package manager overly simplistic and slow. They had a lot of packages available and the Livna repo handled all the proprietary stuff easily. Mandriva includes LinDVD and has a lot of packages (especially games and educational apps) and the Easy URPMI site makes adding third-party repos very easy. But their package manager is garbage. Suse is nice but has very little to offer home desktop users. Not enough community support for games and educational apps. I'm sticking with Ubuntu Edgy for now. With Automatix it's easy to add multimedia support. There are still issues with missing menu items because of incomplete freedesktop.org desktop file support but I'm helping to fix it. I just wish they would backport the 3dfx (tdfx) video driver so that I could use a bunch of video cards I have laying around. I can't even log in with the current one because the display manager crashes. |
| devnet Feb 22, 2007 8:34 PM EDT |
My fav response :) https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-Febru... |
| herzeleid Feb 22, 2007 9:17 PM EDT |
Quoting: Suse is nice but has very little to offer home desktop users. Not enough community support for games and educational apps.On what basis do you make this claim? |
| salparadise Feb 23, 2007 4:30 AM EDT |
Since he works for Linspire what is he doing ranting at Fedora and switching to Ubuntu? Shouldn't he be using Linspire? |
| DarrenR114 Feb 23, 2007 5:09 AM EDT |
@salparadise, I think it might be something to do with "plausible deniability" - if ESR were to endorse Linspire while lambasting Fedora, then it could be quickly written off as "advertisement" with a personal interest at stake. But since he's endorsing Ubuntu, there is no appearance of "personal gain" since there is no publicly known fiduciary connection between ESR and Canonical, though there was the recent partnership story in the news regarding Canonical and Linspire. |
| salparadise Feb 23, 2007 5:45 AM EDT |
Ah.
Yes, that makes sense, in a crazy upside down sort of a way. On the otherhand, if you can't advertise what your own company makes what can you advertise? @herzeleid I've not long got a couple of Macs (ppc ibook and mac mini). Two things struck me. 1) I didn't have to configure anything - it just works. And it works SO beautifully and what a contrast with every other OS. This ibook works the way I was told every version of Windows should work, but doesn't, and the way I hoped Linux might work, but doesn't. 2) 2-3 years of using synaptic spoils ones idea of how acquiring software should work. Now I can click on links that take me to pages where, without a credit card, I am a 2nd class citizen. (And I don't have a credit card, or even a bank account - how hard is my life getting?) And added to that, now I get to feel slightly dirty and out of sorts for using an OS that's licensed up the wazoo and priced out of the range of 98% of the human race. This would go some way to explaining my lack of input to this site of late. I've been playing in Apple land. I have Ubuntu for the Mac, I just haven't got round to installing it yet. It's a hard thing to do, to wipe out OSX in favour of Ubuntu (an ancient african word that means "very little works out of the box"). ;-) |
| herzeleid Feb 23, 2007 9:59 AM EDT |
Quoting: It's a hard thing to do, to wipe out OSX in favour of Ubuntu (an ancient african word that means "very little works out of the box").That's priceless, can I use that in a sig? I know what you mean about the mac - with this macbook pro, it's the first time in 12 years that I haven't felt immediately compelled to wipe the vendor-supplied OS and install linux on a machine I've acquired. I just wiped vista from an HP pavilion and installed suse 10.2 with great pleasure (hasta la vista, sucker!) but with the mac I'm impressed enough to let OSX live and prosper. |
| salparadise Feb 23, 2007 12:13 PM EDT |
Ah yes. Vista. If it wasn't (possibly) destined to run on so many of the worlds computers it would be truly funny. Microsoft should team up with Fisher Price and Sesame Street. That said, I thought the interface to Windows Mail on Vista was particularly well done. |
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