What!
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| hchaudh1 Feb 20, 2007 8:48 AM EDT |
No wink, wink, nod, nod to pirates. No, if you have to use something, use our stuff..... anymore. I doubt it. They are just looking for a scapegoat. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 20, 2007 9:02 AM EDT |
It's a ruse. Piracy is the best word-of-mouth advertising that Microsoft could hope for. The more they pretend to "do about" copying of their products, the more the l337 crowd think they gain geek points by running it without paying for it. They then bring these skills to their places of work/school, which translates into direct sales for Microsloth. When a business tries to save some money by copying, MS has their paid goons in the BSA and various "governments" crack down on "piracy", while the copying of software goes on, and on, and on. They cry crocodile tears all the way to the bank. |
| DarrenR114 Feb 20, 2007 9:07 AM EDT |
If this is true, then it should translate to even more users for Linux (though I don't know that the calibre of users that knowingly or unknowingly pirate MS-Windows is desirable for Linux propagation). On a related note: Have you registered as a Linux user? http://counter.li.org/ (I now have #442404 because I've changed emails and don't remember previous registration from years ago.) |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 20, 2007 9:11 AM EDT |
#215433, 5 machines registered. |
| bigg Feb 20, 2007 9:16 AM EDT |
Ballmer is trying to protect his job. I give him six months. I've always viewed Vista as his test. What has he done for the shareholders since taking over? Now after more than five years, they have a new version of Windows that isn't selling. I think the Novell deal is a way to tell shareholders that he has found a new revenue stream. Combating piracy is another. I don't think Wall Street will buy any of this. I think they will ask what Microsoft is doing with the xbox and zune and all that other crap, when they need to concentrate on Windows and Office. By the end of the summer, he will be gone. It's hard to imagine any competent CEO running a monopoly and giving shareholders less return. My dog could run Microsoft as well as Ballmer. Good leaders get results. |
| jimf Feb 20, 2007 9:17 AM EDT |
> l337 crowd think they gain geek points by running it without paying for it. > They then bring these skills to their places of work/school Well, 'skills' is perhaps overstating it, but they certainly enable the MS scam. Let's remember that it takes two parties for this racket to work. Although MS is definitely the evil empire, I find it hard after all these years to find any sympathy for the 'victims'. I begin to view this as yet another 'stupid is as stupid does'. |
| number6x Feb 20, 2007 9:59 AM EDT |
#208253 Zenwalk and debian |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 20, 2007 10:02 AM EDT |
Quoting:I begin to view this as yet another 'stupid is as stupid does'. In general I agree but taken on an individual by individual basis it doesn't work. People are stupid, I am not arguing that but if we really do want more people to use FOSS then we can't treat a person badly because they really have never heard of Linux or Firefox or Open Source in general. You gotta be nice to the newbies if we want Open Source to grow. I was a newbie not too long ago, I remember what it was like to not know jack then again, I still don't know jack now.. ;-) |
| jdixon Feb 20, 2007 10:42 AM EDT |
> By the end of the summer, he will be gone. We can only hope. Some adult leadership at Microsoft would do wonders. |
| jimf Feb 20, 2007 10:43 AM EDT |
> treat a person badly because they really have never heard of Linux or Firefox or Open Source in general. Absolutely not, that's (just?) ignorance. But once they've been shown the clearly superior alternatives and still choose MS? I see that as the ultimate stupidity, and, certainly not worth my sympathy. > I still don't know jack now.. You know 'a lot' more than you did to begin with. You were, and are, willing and eager to learn more. Overall an excellent student, and, not to be regarded as a noob for much longer. That's all I look for. |
| hchaudh1 Feb 20, 2007 10:54 AM EDT |
@jimf "But once they've been shown the clearly superior alternatives and still choose MS?" I see where you are coming from. Just to give an example, I still use Windows from time to time at home. I need it for iTunes and GoogleTalk. What I don't get is why Google does not release a Linux version for GoogleTalk. I don't have very high expectation from Apple. Their products are awesome and Steve Jobs is someone that I really (used to) respect, but lately he just seems dillusional and generally stupid. But that's just me. But when companies like Google don't walk the walk, it pisses me off. I think companies like IBM, Red Hat and Sun are doing more for Open Source than Google. And Google used to be something I admired. Meh. |
| DarrenR114 Feb 20, 2007 11:07 AM EDT |
>But when companies like Google don't walk the walk, it pisses me off. I think companies like IBM, Red Hat and Sun are doing more for Open Source than Google. And Google used to be something I admired. Meh. Don't get me started on IBM and FOSS ... or Sun for that matter. Redhat on the other hand - definitely FOSS friendly ... it's just too bad that they don't make it easy to handle MP3's under either Fedora or RHEL. |
| jimf Feb 20, 2007 11:15 AM EDT |
> need it for iTunes and GoogleTalk I understand that you feel wedded to those programs... That's what Corporations want to do to you and your friends. I've gotten to the point where I just won't play that game. I use only IRC at this point, keep a channel open all the times, and invite all my friends to contact me that way. Gaim and Kopete are ways to utilize IM's if you must use a more proprietary service under Linux. For music, their are also too many solutions under Linux for you not to find an alternative to iTunes, though that may require a few changes in your routine. Consider that by making the choice of Free software and services, and, by touting those choices to your friends, you may be doing them the biggest favor ever. We lead by example, and friends don't let friends use anything MS... |
| techiem2 Feb 20, 2007 11:25 AM EDT |
If you don't need the voice feature, you can use google talk in a jabber client (I've set it up in gaim, bitlbee, and the one that comes by default in kde in pclos [name escapes me at the moment]).
But yeah, a native linux version would be nice for the voice support. (/me reminds self to test his ekiga account with voice sometime...) |
| bigg Feb 20, 2007 11:29 AM EDT |
> We can only hope. Some adult leadership at Microsoft would do wonders. I don't know. Releasing a new OS every five years that does the same thing as the previous OS, but eats more resources, is probably good for Linux. Not good for consumers necessarily, but good for Linux. I'd really be scared if they were to hire a guy like Lou Gerstner. Then we'd have to worry about the competition. Ballmer is a thug, not a leader. |
| hchaudh1 Feb 20, 2007 11:31 AM EDT |
@darren "Don't get me started on IBM and FOSS ... or Sun for that matter." Genuine question, why do you think IBM/Sun are so bad? I know some of the history, but in recent years they seem to be helping out OSS a lot. I mean not just empty talk, but actual code/patent/financial contributions. Well, Google does some financial contributions also, but that is not my point. I want to see big, aggressive companies come out in support of OSS. But maybe I am missing something. |
| jimf Feb 20, 2007 11:42 AM EDT |
> Releasing a new OS every five years that does the same thing as the previous OS, but eats more resources, is probably good for Linux. I really believe that this last release will be the tipping point. Vista is regarded as a failure even by some of the powers that be in MS. By comparison, Linux is the obvious best choice. |
| jdixon Feb 20, 2007 12:02 PM EDT |
> But yeah, a native linux version would be nice for the voice support. Well, it's proprietary, but Skype is available for Linux and seems to work fine. Obviously, Ekiga, being open source is a better if you can get it working, but Skype is was drop dead simple to get up and working. |
| tracyanne Feb 20, 2007 12:40 PM EDT |
Love you Stevie. Nothing like a bit of kinky rumpy pumpy, you tighten them screws, that's what we like to see, take the whip to your customers. |
| DarrenR114 Feb 20, 2007 1:30 PM EDT |
Sun is wishy-washy ... true enough they have made genuine contributions by opening up StarOffice with the OpenOffice.org ... but it seems with Sun it's two-steps forward, one step back. I'm not as leery about Sun as I am about IBM. IBM has a long history of questionable behavior - they were the ones who put MS into the position to become the monopolist it is today after all. And they are a monopolist company also (can you even get Amdahl mainframes anymore?). They never have made a Linux OS option available on their PCs (they've maintained an stock ownership position in Lenovo.) If they were as serious as they say, they'd at least offer the option of having Linux pre-installed on thinkpads and their desktop models. It would have been no skin off their back to assign to the public domain the patents which they granted a revokable non-exclusive license. And on their internal politics: I've never worked directly for IBM, but from what I've been told by co-workers who have, it makes MS look like a good place to work (that's not a good thing to me). Basically what I'm saying is that today's FOSS corporate hero may well turn out to be tomorrow's FOSS corporate villain. In my not so humble opinion, the best thing for everyone involved with FOSS is to do their personal best to promote Linux and FOSS by accentuating the positives ("Where do you want to be tomorrow?") |
| jimf Feb 20, 2007 2:01 PM EDT |
> today's FOSS corporate hero may well turn out to be tomorrow's FOSS corporate villain. That may be more about the nature of Corporations rather than any individual figurehead. |
| jsusanka Feb 20, 2007 4:18 PM EDT |
"They then bring these skills to their places of work/school" didn't know the three finger salute and hitting the reset button was a skill or installing from the rescue cd over and over again. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 20, 2007 4:19 PM EDT |
"That may be more about the nature of Corporations rather than any individual figurehead." I couldn't agree more. Neil Stephenson goes into this specifically in _Cryptonomicon_: Maximize Investor Value. If the board of directors thinks F/OSS is good, it's good. If not, it's not. The turn around can be as fast as a single meeting. Right now, IBM is making serious money by selling what IBM does best: Hardware and support service. They don't have to write Linux, so they don't have that cost. They get tons of free advertising that way too. But they have not done the same with Lotus Notes, nor with their other applications. They see what OpenOffice has accomplished, yet they do not emulate. That is something from very high up IMNSHO. The Linux development/implementation/support team certainly is very much pro-F/OSS, but corporately, they are still putting a toe in to this F/OSS thing, they as a company are _not_ committed. Someone thinks they can make money today by farming F/OSS, but they are very much hedging their bets about tomorrow. Time will tell. |
| hchaudh1 Feb 21, 2007 5:25 AM EDT |
@darren I would agree with you pretty much 100%. But then again, I think that the fact that your ally of today might turn out to be an adversary tomorrow is no reason to discount him (our ally). If we have our licenses straight, we can limit the damage that potential adversaries like these can do in the future. That's why I think GPL v3 is a good idea. Right now, OSS needs all the allies (and big honking corporate sponsorships) it can get. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 21, 2007 4:39 PM EDT |
Which reminds me of a few quotes by L. Neil Smith: "Choose your allies carefully: it's highly unlikely that you'll ever be held morally, legally, or historically accountable for the actions of your enemies." "Choose your enemies carefully: you'll probably be known much better and far longer for who they were, than for anything else you ever managed to accomplish." "Go straight to the heart of the enemy's greatest strength. Break that and you break him. You can always mop up the flanks and stragglers later, and they may even surrender, saving you a lot of effort." "It is moral weakness, rather than villainy, that accounts for most of the evil in the universe -- and feeble-hearted allies, far rather than your most powerful enemies, who are likeliest to do you an injury you cannot recover from." And the most apt when "allies" talk about pushing for Linux dominance on the desktop: "If you can avoid it, never play on the other guy's field, by the other guy's rules, or with the other guy's ball. He didn't design his system to give you the advantage. Remember that organisms defending their own territory are twice as effective as an intruding attacker." found in: http://lneilsmith.org/tactical.html All very apt, I think. Consider OpenOffice and the Linux kernel. Our enemies greatest strength, cut out from under them like a watermellon seed from between pinched fingers. "We" didn't fight on their terms, on their playing field or anything else. "We" built a product for our own use that is _better_, and let people choose what they wish. I'm sure other applications will come to mind with a little bit of thought, such as Apache, each of which was built because someone wanted to. I'll throw in one of my unattributable favorites: An attacker must vanquish. A defender need merely survive. By trying to attack Microsoft, we spend pointless effort. The most effective thing F/OSS can do is work on defense. Make the GPL unassailable legally, make the applications, programs and organizations function as effectively as it is possible to do. Keep to open standards and make the F/OSS universe as interoperable and seamless as possible. Microsoft will crash upon that wall like a wave. Let Balmer and Gates waste their time, money and reputation nay-saying F/OSS. Then, as their energy fails, as their disillusioned users seek alternatives, we hold out a hand and welcome them. Eventually, Balmer, Gates and Jobs will be standing all by themselves wondering where it all went. |
| swbrown Feb 21, 2007 5:27 PM EDT |
> Sun is wishy-washy ... true enough they have made genuine contributions by opening up StarOffice with the OpenOffice.org ... Sun's not really wishy-washy, they've just been having a personality disorder as to if they want to be aggressively anti-Linux/GPL, or aggressively pro-Linux/GPL. I don't think their actions from either personality are wishy-washy - they made some rather high profile attacks on Linux/GPL, and they've made some incredibly high profile positives for it as well. GPLing StarOffice and GPLing Java is a HUGE thing. Especially Java - that really changes the landscape on a fundamental level and will have a tremendous impact. I think trying to cure that personality disorder was why their CEO has been making an absolutely huge thing out of the Java GPLing and GPLing other parts of their stuff - he's basically saying "This is the way Sun's going to be, so stop bitching and deal" to his company. You still see splinter factions in Sun attacking itself, like the OpenSolaris folk's reaction to the possibility of GPLing it. I don't know how Sun came to be so split, but it's surely why they've been having such a hard time in the market. Shaking hands with one hand and beating with the other leaves people remembering being beaten. |
| helios Feb 21, 2007 5:30 PM EDT |
"Stupid is as stupid does." Case on point...friend of a friend wept bitter tears of frustration, was excited about Linux and bugged me and his friend to help him get it set up. First encounter, did not boot to cd but went straight back into Doze. "OK, it's not reading the disk. Is you bios set up to boot from CD?" "blank stare through phone - is my what doing what?" "Your bios...OK, here...reboot, hit f2 in the black screen and you will see a....." "You mean I gotta do ALL THAT just to get this stupid thing to work? Screw that, I'll stay with Windows!" For the Love of God, I sincerely hope so. Kind of like the idiot who can't get Samba to work with ubuntu in a currently posted story. However, I know this to be the case and a problematic one at that. I've talked to the Linux Mint people about it frequently. I'm not so sure it's not a premature Ubuntu hype situtation here. Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Pardus and Vector ALL see and interact with my Doze machine out of the box. Ubuntu just isn't addressing this issue, or gnome, whichever the case may be. h h |
| jimf Feb 21, 2007 7:05 PM EDT |
> "You mean I gotta do ALL THAT just to get this stupid thing to work?" We've all heard that one before. I just ran into one on a (to remain unnamed) IRC channel last night. A self proclaimed veteran of 30 years of MS and Windows. He seemed intent on ranting about how 'Why doesn't this damned thing work!" rather than following a few simple instructions. It turned out that he had only been running Linux for four days, and expected that he could apply his windows 'knowledge' the problems he encountered instead of googeling or seeking other help. It pained him that he was back to grasshopper status. So we waited until the rants were over, and, by repeating instructions two or three times, got a few of his problems resolved. The truth is that learning any new OS is always culture shock. Past the superficial appearance, Linux is very different from Windows, and we've all been in that position. Learning the basics is a necessary step to move on. In this instance, our grasshopper decided that it was worth learning. In all to many cases, like helios' tale, the person decides that he doesn't want to learn how to do it. Fear of failure? laziness? Or, just plain stupidity? And some just find it easier to listen to the windows hipe. I'm not sure what fails to motivate, but, there are all too many people who will cling to their ignorance, It's just a fact of life. So, could Linux make the learning curve easier? I think the answer is yes, and we do continue to make it easier. Printing has, for the most part, become a no brainer. Samba/smb has made it child's play to connect to a Windows box (now do something like that for Linux to Linux). Does that mean that a new user shouldn't have to learn 'anything'? I don't think so. New Windows users arguably have just as difficult a learning curve. Funny that we don't hear any of that... Maybe Windows users just suck it up cause, to admit they 'can't do it' would mean, they've blown a wad of cash... |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 22, 2007 5:20 AM EDT |
"New Windows users arguably have just as difficult a learning curve. Funny that we don't hear any of that..." Preinstallation is Microsoft's ace-in-the-hole. No worrying about whether the BIOS is set to boot from CD, no (usually) worries about video hardware or other included peripheral support. Given equal starting points, indeed any new user has to learn just as much as another. By not being pre-installed, F/OSS systems have that much more to learn up front, and that indeed does frighten off many people who do not believe they can learn things quickly enough to make their system work. Apple takes that to yet another level, by being both hardware and software vendor. A user need known far less about their system to do most things. |
| hchaudh1 Feb 22, 2007 6:49 AM EDT |
@swbrown "he's basically saying "This is the way Sun's going to be, so stop bitching and deal" to his company." I don't get that. Do you think it was bad of Sun of GPL Java? What should they have done so you would be happy? |
| DarrenR114 Feb 22, 2007 3:35 PM EDT |
@hchaudh1 I don't think that swbrown is unhappy that Sun is releasing Java under the GPL. What I think he's lamenting about is their past, seemingly schizophrenic, corporate behavior. Those who've watch them in the past will be looking for the snare that is behind the GPL bait. |
| swbrown Feb 22, 2007 6:22 PM EDT |
> I don't get that. Do you think it was bad of Sun of GPL Java? What should they have done so you would be happy? I'm extremely happy about them GPLing Java. What I was talking about was how Sun's had a corporate split personality in the past, like postpartum depression or something. For a long time they've been both attacking and assisting, and there's been an obvious big struggle higher up in management as to which path to take, culminating in their VP recently bailing over the final decision to GPL Java (Gosling immediately took over his role). I think that the reason their CEO is now coming out so extremely strong on the GPL situation is that he's trying to unite his company so they're going in one direction again, and doing so by taking every opportunity to make very clear exactly what that direction will be - he's essentially speaking more to his own company than to others. I wish them luck, hope it works out. I'm not looking for or expecting a snare, I'm just hoping they succeed in unifying their company in this direction and get back on track. They'll be a great ally if they can just stop randomly punching people in the face. :) |
| helios Feb 22, 2007 6:25 PM EDT |
DarrenR114 as per your comments about Google; See http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/44-Google-What-Have-You... Then tell me if you want to add to it or freshen it up. I'll bring you in as a guest blogger if you can add some new insight to it. They thought they bought themselves off with the Picasa move but that wasn't a migration or port...it was a fancy (albiet a fantastic) Wine hack. They made billions off the backs of Linux and FOSS. And they can't get around to porting the friggin' Google Desktop Search to Linux.? Geek please. h |
| DarrenR114 Feb 23, 2007 5:02 AM EDT |
Ken, I'd be glad to do a guest blog, but I think you might be referring to comments by hchaudh1. I was quoting his post immediately preceding mine, though I do agree, Google has gotten much too big for their FOSS britches. Truth to tell, I believe the FOSS community could, if a group within it were so inclined, reproduce everything that Google has done in a completely open way. What would need to happen is twofold: 1. Produce a complete feature set of products comparable to the full range of offerings from Google. 2. Create a unique marketing advantage by doing something significantly different that the vast majority of users would benefit such as offering more free mail space (being totally based on "free software" would not be that advantage to the larger, non-developer, segment of the target market.) |
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