Troll Parade
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| swbrown Feb 16, 2007 6:12 PM EDT |
Lyons, Enderle, O'Gara, Darl, all attacking within a small window. Wonder who's coordinating the shots.. |
| jdixon Feb 16, 2007 8:08 PM EDT |
Considering that most of Enderle's article is a criticism of Microsoft's management decisions, I think we can let Microsoft off the hook in his case. Lyons' article was entirely about PJ, and given his past run in's with her, I think we can write his artice off as personal malice. |
| number6x Feb 17, 2007 5:29 AM EDT |
Enderle is stating that he is criticizing Microsoft's management decision to strongly support Linux. Basically a lie. The reality is Microsoft is spending millions attacking Linux on multiple fronts. Microsoft is running the "Get the Facts" propaganda campaign, Microsoft is funneling money to SCO through Canadian Pipe fairies, Microsoft is patenting functionality that has existed in Linux software for years, while lining up Linux vendors for a patent battle. Then he posits that Microsoft should end its strong support for Linux and instead just ignore Linux because Linux is just suitable for low-cost housekeeping jobs and not a real threat to the amazingly 'Enterprise' ready Windows OS. Another lie, as Linux has proven its usefulness throughout the enterprise. I may be old and grey. That's why when I hear the word 'Enterprise' I think IBM big iron, Z/OS or OS/370. Then some Unix OS's come close to that. Then a really big gap. Then BSD, Linux, and another big gap. Windows is about as 'Enterprise' ready as Nintendo. Enderle is not criticizing Microsoft's management decision to strongly support Linux, because there is no decision to strongly support Linux. He's making it up. Don't let people like Enderle form the boundaries of the debate based on lies. His article can be pretty much re-phrased like this: "We know that using Microsoft software has resulted in almost complete elimination of World Hunger and in a vast reduction of deaths by cancer. However Microsoft has begun strongly supporting the use of Linux. This support of the Linux OS could threaten World Peace and cause a return of the practice of Slavery. Since Linux is really only useful for cleaning toilets, I advise Microsoft to quit its strong support of Linux, and instead just Ignore Linux. After all supporting Linux could cost millions of lives." Enderle is either a very poor propaganda device, or completely out of touch with reality. |
| jdixon Feb 17, 2007 6:49 AM EDT |
> Enderle is stating that he is criticizing Microsoft's management decision to strongly support Linux. Did you read the same article I did? That's exactly the opposite of what he said. He said that Microsoft has (until recently) continually attacked Linux, and that those attacks have backfired and made Linux stronger. He argues that Microsoft should instead ignore Linux and concentrate on meeting their customers needs. > ...because Linux is just suitable for low-cost housekeeping jobs and not a real threat to the amazingly 'Enterprise' ready Windows OS. Well, yes, he does insinuate that. But this is Enderle we're talking about; you can't expect him to be objective where Linux is concerned. He bet against Linux and Open Source early on (sometime in the mid-90's from memory), and he's not going to admit that he's been wrong all these years. |
| Abe Feb 17, 2007 8:36 AM EDT |
Enderle is saying nothing new, I guess that makes him a moron. Then again, he was always a moron. He is finally admitting that FOSS is making great progress and calling on MS to stop the bashing because it backfired. Well, we all knew that and we can see MS winding down the bashing. I say it is too little too late. The genie is out of the bottle and MS is in no way going to put it back. He finally realizes that FOSS has brought great things to the IT consumers and he is calling on MS to adopt FOSS's approach and methodology. MS is already doing that by continuing with their old extend to exterminate strategy. They tried to modularize Vista, as much as they can, after realizing how bloated it became and how slow it performed. I say it is too little too late. FOSS has a lot more to offer to IT consumers than just approach and methodology; much lower cost, easier support & less maintenance, more reliable operation, better scalability, etc... MS even went to the extent of including some of FOSS tools in their development software. They are adding Python, contracting the PHP people to improve its functionality on Windows platform. If MS can do a good thing, it is their IDE development tools (MSDN). Ballmer realized that many developers are using MS tools for applications that run on FOSS platform. He wants to make those languages available and run better on Windows platform. You can see many of the similarities of syntax and keywords between the latest Visual Studio and FOSS languages. Too little to late, there are multiple IDE tools and more better are on the way. All in all, whether he knows it or not, Enderle is indirectly or unintentionally admitting that FOSS is winning. He is trying to advise MS on something they already know they failed at, and they are trying to do something about to no avail. This Enderle article could be one of his attempts to say "I told you so" when MS loses their monopolistic control. |
| jdixon Feb 17, 2007 8:41 AM EDT |
Abe: What can I say, you're absolutely correct. :) |
| dcparris Feb 17, 2007 9:32 AM EDT |
O.k. it's all somebody's fault here! Well, it sure can't be my fault. I kept reading this thread and wound up running over to read the man's post. Frankly, anyone comparing Microsoft & FOSS to a tennis pro & an 8-year-old in the way Enderle did has to be intentional. There are no two ways about that. I've been saying all along that Microsoft needs to change their strategy (who hasn't been?). He might have been hit a second time with that clue bat, but it's pretty obvious he could use a few more clumps. But I'm seriously curious about the money thing. Europeans, Indians, and others seem to be thriving on FOSS business models. Maybe I'm just ignorant or delusional. It's almost as if making money from FOSS is most challenging here in the US. I have no facts to back up my claim - it's pure conjecture. But I am curious as to whether there might be some truth to that, or even if it's fairly accurate. |
| number6x Feb 17, 2007 12:13 PM EDT |
jdixon, I was just going off of Enderle's statement: "So now let’s introduce some FUD and ask the question: What would happen if Microsoft got its act together and came up with an effective anti-Linux strategy instead of the pro-Linux strategy they now have?" "Instead of what pro-Linux strategy?" was my first thought. Maybe Enderle was joking? I can't tell. He says many things that are completely absurd with complete seriousness so often, If he was trying to be funny it didn't work. |
| number6x Feb 17, 2007 12:29 PM EDT |
rev, The idea is not to make money off of FOSS, that's where everyone gets it wrong. If you are making money, you can make more if you use FOSS. Amazon, Google, and Linksys all make more money because they use FOSS in their infrastructures and products. Amazon posted its first profitable quarters after switching from Solaris to Linux. Their revenue was growing, and they may have become profitable anyways, but they could do it sooner with Linux. Google would not be as profitable if they had to pay Sun or Microsoft licenses for those hundreds of thousands of Linux servers they use, heck if they had to pay all those license fees, they might not be profitable at all. You don't make money off of FOSS, you save money with FOSS. |
| jdixon Feb 17, 2007 1:12 PM EDT |
> Frankly, anyone comparing Microsoft & FOSS to a tennis pro & an 8-year-old in the way Enderle did has to be intentional. Well, yeah, it is. Are you saying it's an invalid comparison? At the time Microsoft started their anti-Linux tirades, I'd say it was actually fairly valid. No one who seriously followed the software business gave Linux a chance at beating out Microsoft, mostly because they didn't understand that Linux isn't a business. > Instead of what pro-Linux strategy? He's calling Microsoft's past strategy a "pro-Linux strategy" because it's effect has been to make Linux stronger. He's not saying that was Microsoft's intent. |
| helios Feb 17, 2007 2:30 PM EDT |
"Don't let people like Enderle form the boundaries of the debate based on lies." "If they attack your point, you've probably struck a nerve." The first quote is from a response above, the second one is from my Dad, in response to a a personal issue I shared with him years ago. It has stuck in the muck of my mind ever since. I have been the target of an Enderle Attack, a weak one in which he was adequately thrashed by counter-comment. [url=http://blog.lobby4linux.com/comment.php?serendipity[entry_id]=98&serendipity[type]=comments#c2288]http://blog.lobby4linux.com/comment.php?serendipity[entry_id...[/url] Not that it took too much effort. As in this article, Enderle makes a much better target than he does a convincing author. but this was quoted above as well and it caused a laugh-aloud moment that caught me by surprise: "...because Linux is just suitable for low-cost housekeeping jobs and not a real threat to the amazingly 'Enterprise' ready Windows OS." Oh...are we talking about the "amazingly 'Enterprise' ready Windows OS." that requires hundreds of dollars in "support software" such as anti-virus, anti-spyware, Anti-everything software ad psychoseum; just so it will perform in a somewhat suitable manner? I have grown weary of linking the news sources reporting the use of Linux by The Pentagon, significant portions of Wall Street, and oh...what was the other important one...? Oh yeah, EVERY Super Computer that exists today. And no, The Pentagon is not just using the server Linux. The Linux Desktop is on hundreds of mission-critical desktop units within the funny shaped building as well. A side-trip during my Washington DC visit was to Walter Reed in order to visit the amputee ward for an entire day. It was no surprise either to find Fedora Core running at the nurses station there. Seems an entire floor uses it. Imagine that. Enderle is obviously spouting such lines in hope of capturing those who recognize his name and consider his word as stone-inscribed. Fortunately, in only works for those who consider changing the boot sequence in one's bios an insurmountable task. Finally, "Microsoft Quisling" has a face to place above the definition. h |
| dcparris Feb 17, 2007 8:04 PM EDT |
jdixon: Sorry, I should have quoted you. You had questioned whether he was being intentional or not in his assessment. I think it's quite valid - even now. All I can say is, did you see that little 8-year-old go?" Also, I agree with your assessment of Enderle's "pro-linux" comment. Microsoft's strategy, in their minds, has been to attack Linux. Their strategy has very much backfired on them. :-) |
| dinotrac Feb 18, 2007 10:27 AM EDT |
Rev and all - I feel a little queasy, about this, because Enderle makes a point I have been making for years, though from the opposite vantage. We have so many fraidy-cats, chicken-littles, and Nervous Nellies around here! If Microsoft burps, the world is about to end. As I have said repeatedly and over several years now, Linux has kicked Microsoft's butt. Microsoft's desktop monopoly has been in place for years -- before there was even a Linux 1.0 -- but their target was to take over the glass house. They wanted to control everything. They have failed and Linux is a big part of the reason why. The desktop is a different story, but not as different as first glance makes it appear. On the desktop, free software wades into the teeth of Microsoft's most entrenched monopoly. Worse, it wades into deeply-entrenched network effects. Worse still, it has to win over people who are not technically proficient. It's always harder to beat someone on their home turf, but things like Firefox and OpenOffice are cracking that door open. It will happen. |
| jdixon Feb 18, 2007 10:36 AM EDT |
> It's always harder to beat someone on their home turf, but things like Firefox and OpenOffice are cracking that door open. It will happen. I think so, yes. I will admit that it appears to be taking longer than I expected. At least partially, I suspect that's just appearances. I expect there are a whole bunch of businesses carefully evaluating Linux for desktop use, and just waiting until it gets to the point they need. I also expect some are making the move even now, and just being quiet about it to stay off Microsoft's radar. Even if Linux does establish a base on the desktop, Windows will be with us for a long time; mostly due to those "deeply-entrenched network effects". |
| Abe Feb 18, 2007 11:25 AM EDT |
Quoting:We have so many fraidy-cats, chicken-littles, and Nervous Nellies around here! If Microsoft burps, the world is about to end. Dino, You have effective writing but I wouldn't have put it that way. We are not afraid of MS or being sissies. We are just protective of FOSS knowing what MS is capable of. We are always are on the alert making sure MS doesn't sneak by us any of its sleazy, devious, mischievous tactics. I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping on guard. Is there! |
| dinotrac Feb 18, 2007 11:44 AM EDT |
>We are just protective of FOSS knowing what MS is capable of. That's the funny thing. We seem to forget what FOSS is capable of. It's possible too many of us are too new to the business to have the proper perspective, but, if you go back ten years, all the smart money was on Windows NT to knock the snot of Unix. It ran on commodity software, leveraged desktop Windows, and was built on a sturdy new base engineered by the folks who built VMS for DEC. Microsoft was busily running IBM's OS/2 into the ground, and there was nobody else with the power to stop them. The 800 lb gorilla would have its way, no ifs ands or buts. That thinking prevailed even though linux was racing forward, even though Oracle and DB2 were coming out on Linux, even though SAP came out on Linux, even though each version of NT actually became worse as a server platform, especially after MS moved graphics support back out of userland. Microsoft was going to own computing. Today's landscape is nothing like that. Microsoft is still an 800 lb gorilla, but it's become clear that even an 800 lb gorilla has to catch you before it can kill you. |
| jimf Feb 18, 2007 12:24 PM EDT |
> 800 lb gorilla has to catch you before it can kill you. Time hasn't been kind to the gorilla. He's gained more than a few pounds, so, he's not so agile. And, his surly nature and many warts have become more obvious. Some think that his family has a history of alzheimer's... |
| Abe Feb 18, 2007 12:38 PM EDT |
Quoting:That's the funny thing. We seem to forget what FOSS is capable of.I think most of us know about what FOSS is capable of. If FOSS didn't have the strength and stamina, it wouldn't have lasted this long and flourished as much. That doesn't mean it is invincible. MS had the field for itself throwing the ball any where it pleases any time it wished until FOSS entered the playground. Consumers are the audience to what is going on in the field. That suddenly changes the rules of the game. It is no more who is best and more powerful, it also became a matter of perception and marketing. MS built its big business not on excellence but more on marketing. The name of the game is marketing and perception. FOSS is very capable and powerful but lacks the marketing part. The only marketing power FOSS has is the word of mouth on the Internet. That is where MS is losing so far and that is where FOSS is starting to win in the enterprise. Back on the subject of being invincible. MS is know to plan way ahead in their strategy when killing a competitor. We simple can't afford letting our guard down for MS to find a way to destroy FOSS. That is why we keep watch for every MS move to make sure there isn't any chance for it to get its way. Most post on this site are veteran FOSS users. They MS pretty well. They know the extent they would go to achieve their goals. Their bulk patenting and the agreement with Novell are the latest and probably that last move that MS can take. The agreement brought to light the most deceptive move and it is not the average FOSS supports are the only ones concerned about it, but the same people who created and established FOSS and its GPL are more concerned. |
| number6x Feb 18, 2007 1:01 PM EDT |
FOSS is winning on every front.
And it isn't even trying to compete! People have problems they need to solve, and if you want something done right, then well you know. FOSS does not have to beat any one. People will still use it to solve their problems. More and more do every year. Those that do have an advantage in cost savings over those that don't |
| jdixon Feb 18, 2007 1:08 PM EDT |
> invisible. Abe, I think you mean invincible. :) |
| Abe Feb 18, 2007 5:49 PM EDT |
Quoting:> invisible. JDixson, It has been a long day responding to posts while coding some AJXA stuff. Thanks for the note, It is correct now. |
| dcparris Feb 18, 2007 7:45 PM EDT |
> As I have said repeatedly and over several years now, Linux has kicked Microsoft's butt. Yes it has. I have not only witnessed that, but have been an active part. :-) I think the Massachusetts ODF battle, despite MS' small "victory", has proven to be another battle that demonstrates it's an out-of-shape 800lb. gorilla. I definitely believe in Free/Open Source Software and in its power to overcome phenomenal obstacles. I do think we should be prepared to deal appropriately with MS when necessary. I also think they are losing their grip, in more ways than one. |
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