There's a reason for this Steven...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| devnet Jan 13, 2007 9:12 PM EDT |
He used Ubuntu and he's a new user. Ubuntu isn't a good starter distro....as you noted, you should have given MEPISLite. You could have even given him freespire or Xandros and he'd have been happier. But Ubuntu? That's just NOT for new users. And you wrote an entire article geared at Ubuntu and all of the "millions" of bandwagon jumpers that flock to it. One of these days, maybe people will realize that Ubuntu isn't doing anything that you can't already do with Debian. Then again, it is fun to lie to yourself isn't it? |
| jimf Jan 13, 2007 9:34 PM EDT |
> Then again, it is fun to lie to yourself isn't it? He has a lot of company ;-) |
| dinotrac Jan 14, 2007 3:57 AM EDT |
>He used Ubuntu and he's a new user. Ubuntu isn't a good starter distro....as you noted, you should have given MEPISLite. That's a pretty discouraging indictment of the Linux desktop, if you ask me. Why should Ubuntu be hard for a new user -- that is, a new user with expert help? Once you've got it installed and the desktop set up, it shouldn't matter if you're running SuSE, fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, or my old shoes. My first distro was Debian. I had a little fun setting it up, but once it was there, my wife used with no problem. By the time she got around to it, I had KDE 1.0 on the thing, but that was nowhere near as easy to live with as the new desktops. |
| azerthoth Jan 14, 2007 6:34 AM EDT |
Um, did you all miss where he said this was more than likely a hardware issue? That one of the issues he has was it didnt come with the w32codecs installed? That OpenOffice was running at snail speed for this guy? There are the usability issues. The rest of the article I would rate as fairly nuetral. Nothing to get all fanboy over in any of the fanboy camps. Well ... maybe the 'Linux rocks and everything and everyone else are to stupid to see it' ubuntoid fanboys could take offense here. Kicking SJVN is fairly easy, he leaves himself wide open for it alot. This really isnt one of those times. |
| dinotrac Jan 14, 2007 7:36 AM EDT |
>Um, did you all miss where he said this was more than likely a hardware issue? Not at all. It is, however, a problem if hardware doesn't work with Linux distros, especially given all the heat and attention some of us pay to sneering at non-free drivers, codeces, etc. |
| bigg Jan 14, 2007 7:42 AM EDT |
This seems to be an odd case that he's looking at. Automatix is really quite simple. I think the part about the codecs is because sjvn is madly in love with ESR and wants to get the message out that preinstalled codecs are the only way for Linux to survive. I usually like what he writes, but I have to question the integrity of that part. One post in an Ubuntu forum is guaranteed to come back "Use Automatix. Use EasyUbuntu." (That would also come out of an Ubuntu book.) The OOo part is also strange. In my experience OOo and MS Office run about the same speed (OOo starts more slowly). The difference between preinstalled Windows and install-it-yourself Ubuntu is the problem. There's nothing the developers can do about that. That's a Linux marketing thing. |
| dinotrac Jan 14, 2007 8:28 AM EDT |
>I think the part about the codecs is because sjvn is madly in love with ESR and wants to get the message out that preinstalled codecs are the only way for Linux to survive. Perhaps you forgot to read the article before commenting. He set up a machine for a friend. The friend couldn't do the things he wanted to do. One need not love ESR for that to happen. |
| bigg Jan 14, 2007 8:35 AM EDT |
"He also found that he couldn't run Windows media on his system. That's because those files are encoded in Microsoft proprietary formats. There are ways and means to get around that, but except for Freespire, no Linux distribution makes it easy." I suppose it depends on your definition of "easy". IMO it is easier to use either of the options available on Ubuntu than to install Ubuntu. It should certainly be easy for sjvn to use either option. |
| dinotrac Jan 14, 2007 8:38 AM EDT |
bigg - Give him credit for this: He correctly pointed out that Windows users who upgrade to Vista are in for their own private hell. |
| bigg Jan 14, 2007 10:10 AM EDT |
> Windows users who upgrade to Vista I see people buying computers at Best Buy thinking they will be upgrading to Vista. If by upgrading they mean reformat the hard drive, install Vista, reinstall all applications, and pray that they have the necessary drivers and all their software works, I guess they will be upgrading. SP2 was a problem. I can only imagine what this will be. Just to see what the buzz is about, I downloaded the second release candidate or whatever they call it for Vista. First I tried with VMWare. 512 MB wasn't enough. 700 MB wasn't enough. I figured maybe the problem was VMWare, so when I bought a new hard drive I tested it on a 1 GB machine. The first screen said I was missing a driver and gave basically no information about how to proceed. I said WTF and decided not to waste more time on it. |
| Fritz Jan 14, 2007 10:18 AM EDT |
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! My distro is so much cooler than your distro. |
| azerthoth Jan 14, 2007 11:31 AM EDT |
Heh, I picked up RC1 to test on my new system. AMD x2 64 4600, 2 gig DDR800, 2x 250G SATAII drives, and a nVidia 7950GX2 1 gig card. It saw those SATA drives, choked and asked for drivers. Unfortunatly it didnt want the XP, 2000, or 2003 drivers so out came the DVD which got flipped upside down and recieved a coffee cup. Slipped my Debian net install CD in and proceeded to use the computer. Go figure. |
| DarrenR114 Jan 14, 2007 12:51 PM EDT |
Fritz: My distro can beat up your distro. |
| jimf Jan 14, 2007 12:54 PM EDT |
> My distro can beat up your distro. As can mine ;-) |
| hkwint Jan 15, 2007 3:06 AM EDT |
My distro can beat up any distro... (When your frame of reference is how long the distro takes to compile itself) Serious now, someone over here has FreeSpire experiences? Could I recommend it to new Linux users? Or should I recommend MEPISLite? I didn't use any of the two. I used Ubuntu, but for some reason, I didn't feel at home in it (probably because I almost never use any Gnome-software). |
| bigg Jan 15, 2007 7:24 AM EDT |
I showed freespire to two Windows users, and the best way to describe their response is probably "cringe". This is defined in the dictionary as "to recoil in distaste". It looks like a really bad Windows imitation, and after those responses I have avoided any discussion of freespire. The best responses have come from pclinux. The documentation is written for newbies, making it easy to find answers to many questions. The interface is comfortable for Windows users without attempting to be a Windows clone. I was unable to switch full-time to Linux until about two years ago after discovering Ubuntu, though that might also have something to do with improvements in Linux applications. I found gnome easier than kde because it doesn't have so much stuff in the menus. I did have substantial Linux experience when I made the switch, so I may not be the perfect example. I have found Mac users to like Ubuntu. Unfortunately I have shown Linux to probably a total of ten people, so my experiences may not be representative. |
| devnet Jan 15, 2007 7:42 AM EDT |
I didn't originally start this thread out to become a 'my distro is better than yours'. I started it out because there are so many alternatives for new users to use Linux...and Ubuntu is NOT the best for a new user. If you have expert help, yes, it's fine. But not everyone does have an expert sitting there waiting in the wings to help out. In those cases where an expert is not a phone call away (or whatever) then Ubuntu wouldn't fit the bill. Wouldn't you rather go with a Linux that doesn't require an expert at all? Is there such a Linux? I think that there are some distros out there that fit the bill more than Ubuntu and many people agree with me. |
| DarrenR114 Jan 15, 2007 9:09 AM EDT |
devnet - It's the old issue of "ease of use" v. "ease of installation". Compared to the bad old days of installing Slackware from 30 floppies, the "ease of installation" is almost a non-issue. With the propagation of LiveCDs in almost any flavor of mainline distribution (Fedora, Debian, Gentoo, Slackware) it really is possible to install Linux without an "expert" holding your hand now. "ease of use" on the other hand - you've got XFCE, IceWM, GNOME, KDE, ad infinitum. Any one of these has both their good points and bad points, depending the user and their expectations. In other words, I expect we will never see a proclamation by anyone that Linux is ready for the desktop of the general population. Heck, we still have flame-wars over vi vs. emacs (btw vi rox and emacs sux them.) |
| dinotrac Jan 15, 2007 9:15 AM EDT |
>Wouldn't you rather go with a Linux that doesn't require an expert at all? Is there such a Linux? I think that there are some distros out there that fit the bill more than Ubuntu and many people agree with me. I agree with you wholeheartedly. OTOH, the more a lInux fits that bill, the more some folks will despise it. |
| jimf Jan 15, 2007 10:12 AM EDT |
> Wouldn't you rather go with a Linux that doesn't require an expert at all? Pardon devnet, but that's the wrong question. At very least you need to define 'expert', and 'new user'. Until computers and the OS's are essentially utilities like a DVD player or even automobiles, the new user will still need some knowledge and experience to set up and operate them. Also remember that some still can't program their DVD player, and how many drivers are 'really competent'? Scares the heck out of me. It's going to be a long time, if ever, till it will be "so easy a cave man can do it". A slew of new users are unable to manage their desktops in Windows and Linux anyway. Obviously Windows requires an 'expert' to set up in the first place and even then doesn't come with much more than a browser, a text editor and email, but sure, the codecs and proprietary drivers work. A default KDE or Gnome install gives a far more complete desktop than that, requires less expertise, but comes sans the codecs, which are usually quite easy to find and install. I'm not sure I understand what the FUD is all about. Call it inability to cope with technology, or disinterest, or plan old stupidity, one other reality that none of you like to admit is that, just like there are people who shouldn't be allowed to drive, there are people who shouldn't be allowed to use computers. Sad, but true. > Is there such a Linux? Relatively, perhaps, but absolutely not, nor is their any OS. All of these require 'expertise' both to install and to operate. I'm not even sure that's a bad thing. > fit the bill more than Ubuntu Ubuntu is very 'middle of the road', certainly usable, but way over-hyped, and, not Ideal for a new user. |
| dcparris Jan 15, 2007 1:46 PM EDT |
How many people do you know that don't know how to install a program for themselves in Windows? I bet you'd be surprised if you start tallying up those who don't know how to do that simple task - and that's with GUI installers. I agree with Jim; much of the bally-hooing about how hard GNU/Linux is, or any given distro is, totally misses the point. |
| jimf Jan 15, 2007 2:39 PM EDT |
One other thing that bugs me with a lot of the current pro Linux articles is that people keep talking about 'market share'. I even heard someone talking about Linux users as 'customers' the other day. Novell may have customers, RedHat (as a corporation) may have customers, but Linux has users and developers. I know that most people are just trying to access the number of Linux users as opposed to the customers of certain companies, but, the terminology is still inexact and disturbingly wrong. From the beginning Linux and it's partnership with GPL has provided an OS environment that is free and open. You may pay for services, but the OS belongs to all of us. In Linux, although most of us would like to see a majority of people using our OS, 'market share' is simply irrelevant. We need to be talking in terms of bringing new users into Linux, and in teaching them how to use the OS and it's environment properly. Windows and Apple have a market. Linux has a community. |
| dinotrac Jan 15, 2007 6:08 PM EDT |
> people keep talking about 'market share'. Himmmmm. Perhaps PIB is the number we should feed the PHBs, as in Percent of Installed Base. |
| jimf Jan 15, 2007 7:27 PM EDT |
> PHBs, as in Percent of Installed Base. That's a more accurate description. |
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