Hear! Hear!
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| dcparris Dec 10, 2006 10:52 AM EDT |
The fact is that I am no expert administrator with 20 years of UNIX experience. I did the same thing - bought (and still have, I think) a copy of Using Linux. It came with 1 Caldera (version??) and 2 Red Hat 5.1 CDs. It cost about $30, and I simply sat and read the instructions. Mandrake 8.0 had a manual, and I could still use the Red Hat book for much of what I needed to do. I bought the Red Hat 7.2 book, but never did much with it. I got into SUSE at 8.0, and really liked their manuals. That's how I learned to configure NFS. Between the SUSE manual and the Red Hat 7.2 book, I learned SSH and a few other things. I even got e-mail working, but only using IP addresses. Never got to send e-mail to clients on my LAN using DNS. I'm now working on OpenVPN, using a book. Sometimes it's difficult, and I find myself turning to the websites for some additional help, but otherwise, I'm slooowly making progress. I just read and follow the instructions. It really isn't all that hard. |
| jimf Dec 10, 2006 11:27 AM EDT |
Also, (paper) books are certainly not the only way to learn Linux. Many excellent tutorials, and virtual books are available on line. Sometimes this is harder than doing the equivalent in Windows, but you end up knowing the process thoroughly, and, you're able to control it much better. One of the key attributes of Linux is the ability to control nearly every aspect of the system, but this implies a commitment to learn the system. No matter how 'user friendly' Linux becomes, this will, and should, always be true. Contrast that with MS Windows products, where both users and Admins are given just enough information to make it work (well, sort of). I always tell new users that they need to make the commitment to learn the system, otherwise, stay with what you got. Ignorance by design, or real control, Your choice... |
| Koriel Dec 10, 2006 12:58 PM EDT |
Its how i started with a copy of Dr. Linux (massive yellow tome which when finished with did sterling work as a doorstop) and Slackware on a bunch of floppies. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 10, 2006 1:11 PM EDT |
This article gave me the idea what to give my parents for christmas: An Ubuntu book. I installed Ubuntu for them quite some time ago. They like it and all their computing troubles have gone away. I rarely get a call about fixing something anymore. But, at the same time I notice that they hardly do anything with the system. The only thing they changed is the desktop wallpaper. Hopefully a book will teach them how to tinker with stuff and make them really appreciate Linux as the customizable system it is. |
| dcparris Dec 10, 2006 1:43 PM EDT |
> One of the key attributes of Linux is the ability to control nearly every aspect of the system, but this implies a commitment to learn the system. Well, I would rather suffer inconvenience, hardship and simple discomfort than go back to using non-free software. That would be like going back to who I was before I became who I am - a pig-loving editor with legs that make people jealous. :-D Say, where _is_ NoDough these days? |
| Libervis Dec 10, 2006 2:29 PM EDT |
The guy who wrote that article has some good points, especially the one where he says:Quoting:But show me one case where somebody actually LEARNED Linux, and then quit using it. That's an excellent point. If you dare to dive in and learn the ropes you'll love the power it gives you. However, not all users are geeky types, computer tinkerers who are interested in technology. They use computers in order to do certain tasks they need to do. In a world where digital technology is so widespread most people probably do use computers not because they love computers, but because they need to use them for something. At the very least, home users for example, are used to computers being sort of entertainment centers and home workstations at the same time. As GNU/Linux becomes more mainstream more of *these kinds of users* will be switching, and in many cases it would probably be unfruitful for us to expect them to read a hundred page manual explaining everything about GNU/Linux just so that they can do what they need to do. Sometimes a plain "RTFM" response simply isn't the right way to help, and *will* result in a user who'll be turned away from GNU/Linux. When it comes to the famous "RTFM" line I'm actually opposed to it being used at all exclusively as replies to pleads for help. If that is the whole of your reply then you'd have better not replied at all. If you really want the guy to read the manual then: 1) Don't use the obscure geeky acronym to tell it to them 2) Point them to the manual you want them to read and even to a specific section of the manual (if it is available online). Be polite! Otherwise you're not helping at all. Also, author mentioned that more user friendly interfaces are not the answer. They may not be for everyone and GNU/Linux world offers enough choice for everyone to use whatever they like (from fvwm to *box to GNOME), but you just need to look at OS X and the kind of user experience it provides to see how beneficial a friendly and intuitive user interface could be. It is absolutely essential for people who use computers as a tool, a sort of an appliance, just to do some work they need or want to do, or to simply be creative in a way that is simple to them. And who is to say this isn't the "right way" for computers to be used? If it can be used in a certain way then who are we to invalidate this use as somehow unfit. So if someone wants to watch videos on his computer, and he can do that, why wouldn't he? Anyway, I wont call the author an elitist or anything. He has his point of view and has some good arguments that don't necessarily contradict the above, but in general we ought to be a bit more open minded and considerate when it comes to computer users switching to GNU/Linux. Not all of them are the same nor do all have same purposes for using a computer, but all of them, as far as I am concerned, have the right to use it, and use it in freedom. Thanks Danijel (http://nuxified.org) |
| tuxchick Dec 10, 2006 3:05 PM EDT |
Huzzah! "Next I would ask, "How did you ever handle Windows?" Again, no sarcasm, I'm seriously wondering. See, if a simple thing like a folder has you stumped, and folders have been a computer metaphor for file organization since at the very least the mid-1980's, and even Windows has folders galore, then how have you even gotten this far? To say nothing of accessing Windows' "hidden" and "archive" files and folders. Let's not even pretend that this is a Linux issue. You are doing the equivalent of standing outside the new car you've just bought and asking "How do I get in?" And the Linux apologists are doing the equivalent of saying "Right, we'll remove the doors from all cars from now on, so it's not so confusing for the new user!"" Quite. What's even worse is some mess like Ubuntu which invites the huddled masses to join the party, and the poor befuddled noobs click the correct buttons, or type the correct commands, and it doesn't work. Then what? I'd like to see fewer total distros that ship with everything working right, rather than a continual parade of half-baked new distributions. |
| jdixon Dec 10, 2006 3:13 PM EDT |
> Its how i started with a copy of Dr. Linux ... and Slackware on a bunch of floppies. Well, I used a printout of the Linux User's Guide, but otherwise pretty much the same thing. It was definitely a learning experience. Still Slack'in after all these years. :) > Sometimes a plain "RTFM" response simply isn't the right way to help, and *will* result in a user who'll be turned away from GNU/Linux. I agree. Hopefully the writer is more tactful about how he says those things than the way they come across in print, otherwise we're going to wind up with a lot fewer Linux users. The key (for me) is to remember that we were all newbies once, and there is a steep learning curve. Always be polite, and if you must tell them to RTFM, quote the relevant section, give them the URL to the complete version, and explain how they can find it in the future. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 10, 2006 3:52 PM EDT |
> I'd like to see fewer total distros that ship with everything working right, rather than a continual parade of half-baked new distributions. It it could be done, it would have been done. You can't make everyting work right and be easy for everyone. Instead, maybe someone should release good Linux books under a CC license and start shipping them with the distro's or put a digital version on a user's desktop after install. The base Gnome and KDE documetation that you get when clicking "help" aren't any good for a new Linux user who wants to learn the OS. |
| jdixon Dec 10, 2006 4:17 PM EDT |
> Instead, maybe someone should release good Linux books under a CC license Well there's always "Slackware Linux Essentials - The Official Guide To Slackware Linux" at http://www.slackbook.org/ |
| tuxchick Dec 10, 2006 4:53 PM EDT |
I don't have a problem with recommending actual books that users have to spend actual money for. It's free as in freedom, not free as in freeloader. The day is long past when Linux was a hacker's playground, and most users could actually contribute something useful. Now the users who don't have the skills to contribute back to FOSS far outnumber the people who do. Let 'em buy a book or click some PayPal links. " You can't make everyting work right and be easy for everyone." That's not what I said. I'd settle for basic functionality being reliable, like installation and all installation options, and printing and when you click on a menu icon the application actually opens, and not having menus cluttered with stuff that isn't even installed, and installed apps not having menu icons, and etc. and so on. This is still too rare, and we spend too much time fixing dumb stuff. To be strictly honest, most distributions should release 'workaround' editions, instead of calling them final releases. |
| bigg Dec 10, 2006 5:14 PM EDT |
RTFM is not an answer. It's rambling by someone too lazy or dumb to explain things, but for some reason desires to give an answer. STTM (show them the manual) or STFU. Lack of documentation is a problem with Linux. A lot of it is cryptic nonsense (tar -xyz thatfile.gz, then compile, and you're set. That's all it takes!) It's a joke written by pimpled-faced nerds and overweight forty-year old virgins. Newbies don't even know where to look to RTFM because there isn't one. It's funny that Mr. RTFM Eric Raymond has a rant about poor documentation on his website. At least point a newbie in the right direction (link or title of book). And if you don't want to at least do that, then STFU. If you don't want to help spread Linux, that doesn't give you a right to drive people back to Microsoft. |
| Alcibiades Dec 10, 2006 11:02 PM EDT |
No, don't try to make everyone into their own administrator. Accept that some people are simply appliance users, and try to point them to a person who will help. Same thing whether it is Mac or Windows or Linux. Its not very time consuming to support Linux for end users - one or two days a year should do it, if you pick your distro correctly, and if you spend time at the start getting the desktop set up correctly for them. A lot of home users are in the same position as corporate workstation users. They are fine doing what they do, but they do need to have an Admin available. Recognize and accept it. You'll do more good for Linux and OpenSource this way than by sending them to read stuff which they are not interested in and cannot understand. |
| jimf Dec 10, 2006 11:53 PM EDT |
> Accept that some people are simply appliance users, and try to point them to a person who will help. Well, that's certainly true. but, it's more complicated than that. While the majority of people are able and willing to learn Linux, there are some that just can't be bothered. these users are a great market for a Linux support business. Another group would be willing to learn, but, are not in any way technically competent. These people hopefully have a friend or relative who can help, but unless they do, or unless they are able to find paid support, Linux just may not be an option. And yes, there are a few who shouldn't be let near a computer. Not sure what you do with them ;-) . |
| dcparris Dec 11, 2006 8:25 AM EDT |
Funny enough, my Pa told me yesterday that someone asked him to help them with their e-mail setup. I don't have the heart to tell him how much it's going to cost to repair the hole my chin put in the floor. It turns out the people were used to one ISP, but moved out near him, and now use his ISP. They hope he can show them what to do. jdixon, if you read this, you might want to evacuate from WV now. I mean, NOW! :-D |
| jdixon Dec 11, 2006 12:00 PM EDT |
DC: > you might want to evacuate from WV now. I mean, NOW! Well, it'll be the 22nd, but I'll be passing by your way on my way down to visit my wife for Christmas, so I'll be out of the area pretty soon. I doubt I'll have time to stop by and say hi though. :( I'm in the Fairmont phone book, so you Dad can give me a call if he needs to. :) |
| nalf38 Dec 11, 2006 1:11 PM EDT |
check your distro's forums. Most every distro knows its own problems and limitations, and when I search on Gentoo forums for a problem I'm having, someone has already had it and solved it with the help and input from fellow Gentoo users. That said, I thought the article was crap. A lot of individual end users start out with a huge learning curve, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's not going to get our panties in a bunch to give a helpful reply in real english, even if you think the answer is so easy your dead grandmother could figure it out. I have plenty of manuals and they were all helpful to a certain degree, but nothing was ever as helpful as seeing real answers from real people on how to solve problems on the same distro I was using. That's part of what kept me in Linux. I never got that level of support in any proprietary system. With a few exceptions, no question should be too stupid. If you feel a question is beneath your allegedly heightened sensibilities somehow, then don't answer it, but don't leave a snotty reply like RTFM. |
| jimf Dec 11, 2006 1:27 PM EDT |
> but nothing was ever as helpful as seeing real answers from real people on how to solve problems on the same distro I was using. IRC is a great tool 'in real time' help for anyone in Linux. Nearly ever Distro has a channel. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 11, 2006 1:51 PM EDT |
IRC is *very* hard for people who have never used it. |
| jimf Dec 11, 2006 2:18 PM EDT |
> IRC is *very* hard for people who have never used it. Huh!.... And the MS or Yahoo one is easy??? Give me a break. Many of these IMs (including IRC) are already used by Windows users. Or are we only pandering to the rock eaters? I'm not talking about a raw terminal connection here. Have you tried the latest xchat? |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 11, 2006 9:49 PM EDT |
IRC isn't IM. It's a totally different protocol. And yes, I have xchat. It's a great program if you know IRC but unsuitable for people who haven't used IRC and are looking for some quick help. The current trend of requiring IRC users to be identified to a NickServ before entering a channel isn't helping newbies either. |
| jimf Dec 11, 2006 11:54 PM EDT |
> IRC isn't I'M. It's a totally different protocol Sure, but the new user doesn't know that or care. > unsuitable for people who haven't used IRC Ahh.. sorry, but I've seen a lot of pretty clueless users get connected with IRC, and I've been working with IRC support for more than a bit. I've even seen distros with xchat set up to connect directly to the Distro's channel. Sure, I't's better if you have someone sitting beside you and tutoring, but, that may not be possible. The only other real option might be the user forums for the various Distros, but, that isn't real time, and the poor n00b may wait for days to get his answer. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 12, 2006 12:09 AM EDT |
> Ahh.. sorry, but I've seen a lot of pretty clueless users get connected with IRC I challenge you to find a Windows n00b who has never seen or used IRC, set him in front of an Ubuntu Live CD and then give him the regular information you see on most distro pages: "Visit us on IRC in #someting at Freenode.net". > I've even seen distros with xchat set up to connect directly to the Distro's channel. A good idea. Haven't seen it implemeted myself yet though. |
| jimf Dec 12, 2006 12:36 AM EDT |
> set him in front of an Ubuntu Live CD why would I ever set a total n00b in front of Ubuntu ;-)... |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 12, 2006 2:01 AM EDT |
:-) |
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