Ken, Ken, Ken...
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| Author | Content |
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| dinotrac Nov 15, 2006 1:42 PM EDT |
I know you have done many wonderful things for Linux. I am thrilled by your current work at tossing the BSAstards out on their ear. But... Treachery? Please. Novell's biggest sin is dumping the well-developed yast online update for this strange zulu zen thing that doesn't work nearly so well while using many more resources for a much longer time -- when it works. Your logic is like Petreley's: 1. Microsoft is evil 2. This deal must be evil. I can't argue with 1, but 2 ain't necessarily true. I seem to recall similar hyperventilating blather when Steve Jobs, in one of his first acts on returning to run Apple, penned a major accord with Microsoft. Apple was struggling at the time, on the ropes by some accounts. The deal gave Apple a huge cash infusion and some time. Last I looked, Apple found a way out of it's mess. You could just about substitute Novell for Apple in terms of the company problems. Novell is seeing much of its business (ALERT!!! Novell is about much more than Linux) go down the tubes. A big cash infusion and some time might not be such a bad thing for them. So...why is it evil for Novell to do what Apple did? Is it because Novell sells Linux? Now there's a fine kettle of fish for you. Sure, go ahead and sell Linux. Contribure code (btw, Novell and Suse have contributed quite a bit), produce a nice distro, etc, etc, but don't you dare try to protect your business while not doing anything illegal or unethical. The Linux community, it seems, only likes businesses that are prepared to go under on principle, and the most important principle of all --- more important than the jobs of people with mortgages to pay and families to feed --- is that Microsoft is so horribly evil that it is better to go out of business and put people out of work than to accept a large cash sum that doesn't require breaking any laws. Something kind of sick and twisted about that. BTW, the Petreley article you refer to so fondly pulled one of those great logical fallacies: the I can only see two reasons thing. Well guess what, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Maybe, just maybe, you need glasses. The thing that Petrely can't see is something that happens thousands of times each and every day in real estate transactions. People file quitclaims in order to clear title so that transactions can go through. What is a quitclaim? It is a renunciation of rights -- whether or not you have any rights. It is not only possible to promise not to do something that you have no right to do, it is common and it is useful. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 15, 2006 2:22 PM EDT |
>1. Microsoft is evil
>2. This deal must be evil. >I can't argue with 1, but 2 ain't necessarily true. If #1 is true, then #2 is true. You don't make a deal with Satan and then call yourself Christ. Yes, Apple saved its business, but it's just as evil as Microsoft, IMO. >while not doing anything illegal or unethical. Again, if #1 is true, working with Microsoft is unethical. And the legality is still out to jury, the last time I checked. I choose to stand against Novell. I will not use, nor will I recommend, SUSE. This was a ploy on Novell's part to sell their business. They signed this just before going to the stage, and about a week after Oracle decided to resell Red Hat...which meant that Oracle was no longer in the market for Novell. Novell needs something to make the crap that is their company smell like roses to somebody. Am I oversimplifying? Maybe, but there are too many gray areas in the deal to make it palatable. |
| jdixon Nov 15, 2006 8:46 PM EDT |
Helios: Well, I'm a Novell shareholder (only 30 shares, but...). I think the deal sucks. Not for Novell, who (assuming the FSF blesses the agreement) will probably do well in the short term, but for everyone else. However, Dino and I have sparred about this on several threads so far, so I'll spare everyone the details here. |
| Sander_Marechal Nov 15, 2006 10:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:Steve Jobs, in one of his first acts on returning to run Apple, penned a major accord with Microsoft. Apple was struggling at the time, on the ropes by some accounts. The deal gave Apple a huge cash infusion and some time. Last I looked, Apple found a way out of it's mess. 1) Apple is evil too 2) MS is bigger now then it was back then 3) Apple is a fringe player in the computer and OS market. Take away the iPod and iTunes and there's little Apple left. |
| dinotrac Nov 15, 2006 10:19 PM EDT |
1) Apple is evil too Hmmm. I there any profit-making enterprise that you do not consider to be evil? I guess everybody who has a job at a profit-making enterprise must also be evil. 2) MS is bigger now then it was back then Is it? In absolute terms, sure, but...the whole computing landscape is also a whole lot larger. Also, Microsoft seems to be spreading itself a little thin these days. 3) Apple is a fringe player in the computer and OS market. Take away the iPod and iTunes and there's little Apple left. So what? Apple still exists and still makes a nice profit. IBM is no longer a player in the personal computer market, but still manages to be pretty significant as a company. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 16, 2006 1:08 AM EDT |
>Also, Microsoft seems to be spreading itself a little thin these days. I certainly hope so. Empires of all types tend to do that; it's far easier to conquer an empire than it is to maintain it. |
| jdixon Nov 16, 2006 2:43 AM EDT |
> it's far easier to conquer an empire than it is to maintain it. I wish that were true. The Roman empire lasted for hundreds of years. The British empire could be argued to still exist. Empires almost always collapse from within, not just because of external forces. I believe Dino is pointing out that Microsoft is following that traditional pattern. |
| Rascalson Nov 16, 2006 4:11 AM EDT |
Dino Dino Dino. Using a Real Estate legal term as an analogy to the MS-Novell deal? Thats a big big stretch of your imagination. MS and Novell are paying each other "royalties" based on shipped units for the patent agreement. If they don't come out and give exact specifics that show this in no way what so ever involves GPL'ed code that they don't own then they are very likely in violation. Even if the agreement itself is clean they have now irreparably damaged there image in the eyes of the a goodly portion of the community. In fact quite a few don't even consider them part of the community anymore. This means Suse will likely wither and die before they even get to the point of violating GPL v3, which of course is certain death no if ands or buts about it. |
| dinotrac Nov 16, 2006 5:42 AM EDT |
Rascalson - Quitclaims can be used outside of real estate, but I agree that it's not a precise fit. It's not all that bad though, at least as an example of a legal instrument that gives something away that you may not have to give. As to the royalties... That's a a very interesting thing. I wasn't any closer to the negotiations than you were, so I have no idea how the final agreement came about, but I've been in a negotiation or two myself and here's one thing I notice: Payments: Microsoft : $240 million up front for linux coupons. Potentially more to follow. Patent agreement: $108 million up front. Novell: royalties $40 million + over five years What I see is a huge disparity in payments, with some fudge room on the volume adjustments and what happens after five years. How the final figures came about, I don't know, but it's conceivable some horse trading took place along the lines of, "Wait ... we don't like paying you $25 million dollars because it looks like you won that point. You pay us $25 million for this thing over here, and we'll pay you $50 million. Same net, but looks better to our customers." Beats me. To pretend that I have a clue as to what actually took place is complete BS. However, that's equally true of all the "deal with the devil sellout" folks. |
| Rascalson Nov 16, 2006 6:07 AM EDT |
Dino: I agree there seems to be some whitewash in there. The bottom line is indeed about the details that are not public right now, and the bottom line underscoring that bottom line is that those details eventually won't matter. They will likely die from community backlash or die for certain after GPL v3. |
| dinotrac Nov 16, 2006 6:19 AM EDT |
>They will likely die from community backlash or die for certain after GPL v3. Don't know. Opensuse may be in some danger. It's possible that Novell didn't anticipate some of the community reaction and will make some moves to build bridges back to the community. Time will tell. I've heard too many "XXXX is dead" pronouncements to give them any attention any more. In this business, the only way to know that "XXXX is dead" is to read the death certificate. So far, Apple, IBM, and mainframes (to name a few) have all been pronounced dead. They're still with us and doing fine. Especially impressive for mainframes, which supposedly died out ten years ago. |
| dcparris Nov 16, 2006 10:22 AM EDT |
Hmmm... wasn't desktop Linux recently pronounced 'dead'? Add that one to your list. It actually seems to be doing fairly well, considering. |
| dinotrac Nov 16, 2006 11:44 AM EDT |
Rev -- Good point. So long as it's on my box, it ain't dead, and, brother, it ain't dead. |
| tuxchick Nov 16, 2006 12:00 PM EDT |
I believe this is the part where the terrorized panicky people scream "It's alive!!" and run upstairs to get trapped and meet their doom. |
| Sander_Marechal Nov 16, 2006 1:30 PM EDT |
Quoting:1) Apple is evil too Nope. Just the companies that use DRM or similar systems to squeeze their customers. Quoting:3) Apple is a fringe player in the computer and OS market. Take away the iPod and iTunes and there's little Apple left. But that's in spite their dealings with MS - not because. They have lots pretty much all relevancy in the markets they dealt with in their MS deals. |
| jdixon Nov 16, 2006 1:57 PM EDT |
> Nope. Just the companies that use DRM or similar systems to squeeze their customers. I don't think Apple uses DRM on their ITunes store because they want to. I think they use it because it's the only way they can license the content they provide. You can blame the major labels for that. Now, the lock down of OSX to Apple only hardware - Yeah, that's Apples fault. |
| dinotrac Nov 16, 2006 2:27 PM EDT |
jdixon - Personally, I think iTunes is doing free software more favors than a million Linux advocates dancing on the head of a pin. I bought my wife an iPod Nano which she loves. She began using iTunes, which she loved. Not the difference in tense. ITunes was great until she wanted to copy a song to her desktop computer, which runs Linux. It was great until she wanted to copy a song to my phone. It was great until she wanted to put iTunes songs onto a CD. She doesn't use iTunes any more, and I'll bet she's not alone. ITunes may be the single clearest and most visible example of why DRM is evil incarnate - at least any form of DRM that our current crop of technologists can envision. My take on DRM is that I have not problem with it. That is, I have no problem with it if it doesn't take away my legal rights. The more people who discover that they cannot do things that they darned will ought to be able to do, the better. Kind of like that old bit: "Slowly I turned, inch by inch..." |
| helios Nov 16, 2006 2:53 PM EDT |
"...Beats me. To pretend that I have a clue as to what actually took place is complete BS. However, that's equally true of all the "deal with the devil sellout" folks...." I made it clear that I was reacting to the thimble-full of information I, or any of us have to go on. I would like to think that I simply wrote what I was told by an employee of Novell. and that is a huge body of Linux. He himself is heavily involved in the OpenSuse Project. Many in the OpenSuse community feel betrayed....and I include myself in those who are comfortable using the word treachery. Microsoft IS going to be allowed to run their PropCode in a Linux distro. You OK with that Dino? I believe I already know the answer to that Dino, we've knocked around this forum together for awhile now, and your input is always sound and well thought out. I would love to hear from anyone truly a part of the Linux Community who does not have a problem with it. Please...do go on. /. hyperventilating blather? No, simply a from-the-gut reaction to a sucker punch from someone I least expected it. The evangelical snake handlers in and around the hill country of Central Texas have a saying, at lest the ones that are still alive and not residing in venom catatonia:: "God answers prayers from the heart, not from the lack of brains." God to recent arrival: "IT WAS A WATER MOCCASIN YOU MORON? What DID you expect?" How many people and corporations have to be bit by Microsoft before they understand what THEY are dealing with? Note to Community...you can scratch Novell off that list. h |
| helios Nov 24, 2006 10:45 AM EDT |
I believe this is the part where the terrorized panicky people scream "It's alive!!" and run upstairs to get trapped and meet their doom.... You forgot the part where they fall down first then look behind them in abject terror, THEN run upstairs to get trapped and meet their doom. Anyone who thinks like this HAS to have a copy of Attack of the Killer Tomato's in their collection. h |
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