Missing the point.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| salparadise Nov 09, 2006 1:45 AM EDT |
A lot of the so called "knee-kerk" reaction comes from the mere fact they've done a deal with Microsoft. For me, that's enough. I don't need to hear anymore. Even if you could prove to me beyond all reasonable doubt that this is not a shifty deal, I would still not use SuSE anymore. I think there's more than a few people that feel this way. We don't like Microsoft. We don't like liars, cheats, politician buyers, rule breakers or market manipulators. And we don't like those who try to get into bed with them. Short term gain? What an abomination. This world is dying from strategies built around the importance of short term gain. So much about this deal is unclear - like why is Novell receiving several times more than it's paying. Is this is a "please keep quiet" deal from Microsoft? Microsoft retain the right to change the terms whenever they wish (IIRC)- what sort of deal is that? Microsoft may sue Novell but not Novells customers - oh please. This is hair splitting. If Novell did get sued then in what way would this not effect their customers? Either way, what's done is done and there's no going back. Just like Google selling out to China (as Microsoft and others have done) is repugnant so this deal is too. Sell out - lose me as a customer - it's that simple. I'm not so arrogant as to presume that my choice is significant, world-changing or in any way important. But it's my right to decide. I expect a higher standard that that which is currently on offer. The only way those standards will ever rise is if we keep demanding them to rise. Giving up, shrugging the shoulders and dealing with the creeps is not the way to achieve this. Linux has a reputation, in part, for offering that which mainstream companies don't - the right to have a conscience and to live by it. |
| helios Nov 09, 2006 2:40 AM EDT |
Sal, I would struggle greatly to say what you just did so well. I am prone to quick conclusions based on initial findings and it has come back to bite me a time or two, but sometimes you have to trust your instincts. I have the same aversion to MS as some people have to "unclean" foods. Not that my beliefs and feelings in this matter are "religious", they are simply deeply ingrained and yet passionately close to the surface. The Linux Community on whole, has been betrayed in the name of Novell Stockholders. There is no recompense for this, no "we're sorry" or "it's just business." Novell threw off millions of people who were looking to them for leadership...someone to take Linux to where it needs to go. Many thought Novell was the great hope for Linux. Instead, we were delivered to the beast. and embraced by a leper. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 09, 2006 2:43 AM EDT |
Well said!! We should expect higher standards from everyone and everything. MS has proven itself time and again to have no sense of morals or fairness...why would we think now that they are acting in good faith? Hey, wouldn't everyone allow Charles Manson to date their daughter if he said he was sorry? Yeah, right. |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2006 6:35 AM EDT |
>We should expect higher standards from everyone and everything. OK, though I don't know what you mean by "higher" in this case. Novell has made a smart move to protect it's business and it's customers. In corporate terms, that's a pretty high standard. Public companies are obligated to protect their stockholders' interests, after all. I don't know why everybody insists on seeing this deal as a sign of friendship. These companies have been at each other's throats for years. This is not a matter of friendship, this is leveraging some corporate advantages to secure protection. |
| MadDogTMC Nov 09, 2006 7:31 AM EDT |
"Public companies are obligated to protect their stockholders' interests, after all." You see that's the biggest problem with things that are really important to the average person. Never mind the devastating impact of regular consumers or working class people that bring in the money for companies because the stockerholders want huge gains no matter what. So legalize occurs and closed door deals are made because someone is too weak to say no. Sounds like legalized extorsion (Bullying) to me. I am not certain how I really feel here but when a large organization is known to negatively manipulate others and is never held truely accountable, Its just plain wrong! I would love to make money by the bushel and I am happy for others that earn it fairly. But the Stockholders are mainly the top single digit percentage of the population. And they are the one's who control a significant portion of the money in the world in some fashion. I have decided on a personal level to never support or use any Microsoft products and or related projects. Novell just eliminated itself from any positive recommendation I may do in my daily job. Sorry, its my decision. The simple fact is that I do not trust Microsoft at any level. I deal with it only in my job and that's it. Deal with it...nothing more. And to think this agreement is a way to protect corporate advantages is only gonna result in getting a knife in the back later on in the future from MS no matter how its sliced. Why? Because they can! The average person can only retaliate by leaving and staying away from Novell and MS. And that's what I will do until I see and hear differently. And then cows and pigs will have wings to fly above me so I can receive their waste from high. TMC |
| hchaudh1 Nov 09, 2006 8:04 AM EDT |
@parent poster Nicely said! I have also said so (in a lot worse way) on other threads. I do not claim to be a Linux expert that I know for a fact so many people here are. I have been using Linux for a while, but I am one of those people who after something is working, don't mess around with it too much. I am using Linux for the principle of it. I don't have a need to be running Linux. I don't have a need to dual boot, or put up with the (increasingly rare) "bugs" that crop up from time to time, but I do. I am sure many people are like me. We got tired of MS, and liked Linux for what it stands for, and started using it, even if not improving it or evangelizing it. As helios put it, "Novell threw off millions of people who were looking to them for leadership...someone to take Linux to where it needs to go. Many thought Novell was the great hope for Linux." Many people like me don't care about the legality issues, the wait-and-see stuff that's blowing around. We are looking for an appropriate response, and for leadership. Instead of waiting for MS to come up and say we are going to sue or not sue, or whatever they want out of this deal, someone should be saying what MS can and cannot do. Granted we don't have all the details of the deal, but we do have the GPL licenses. Can someone just go through it and elaborate what it says in english, what loopholes are present etc? |
| mdl Nov 09, 2006 8:17 AM EDT |
"Novell has made a smart move to protect it's business and it's customers." That remains to be seen. Many, including me, are jumping off the Novell/SUSE bandwagon. So I don't see how this move by Novel is "smart". It looks to me like Microsoft thinks it has found a Judas goat in Novell. I will not be following them to the slaughterhouse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_goat |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 9:19 AM EDT |
> But the Stockholders are mainly the top single digit percentage of the population. Bull. Anyone who has a pension with a major corporation is a stockholder. Most people with 401K's are stockholders. Many people with IRA's are stockholders. Conservative estimates are that over 50% of Americans are now stockholders. From pbs.org at http://www.pbs.org/fmc/book/14business6.htm : "In 1998, 52 percent of Americans owned shares in public companies or equity mutual funds, either directly in their own accounts, or indirectly in retirement and trust accounts." From http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2519/is_6_20/ai_5... : "A little over three decades ago, only one in 10 American adults owned stock. Today, according to a Peter Hart survey conducted this past April for NBC and The Wall Street Journal, 53 percent of all adults now own at least $5,000 in stock." and "Since 1989, stock ownership has jumped 46 percent among households with incomes between $25,000 and $50,000 and by a massive 78 percent among those making between $10,000 and $25,000." |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2006 9:24 AM EDT |
jdixon - How dare you cloud the issue with facts? At least you didn't mention that Novell, in looking out for its stockholders, is also protecting it's employees, it's customers, its' customers' employees, their families, etc. We sure wouldn't want to do that, now would we? |
| tuxchick Nov 09, 2006 9:32 AM EDT |
OK, but the old "we have a responsibility to our shareholders" is the tiredest excuse in the book for justifying all manner of abuses. With the implication that it's impossible to succeed by legitimate means, such as, oh you know, weird hippie jive like selling great products at fair prices, and delivering first-rate customer service. No business has a divine right to succeed, though they sure behave like they do. When they start implementing questionable practices, that's a sign they've lost their way. So is this deal a 'questionable practice'? Time will tell, but already the deal reeks with the stench of classic Microsoft doubletalk, evasions, and Newspeak. It's quite understandable why there is so much criticism. I can see why SUSE users don't like it, and many people see a larger threat to FOSS and the GPL, because even if you can't find the smoking legalese, Microsoft's record speaks for itself. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 9:34 AM EDT |
> How dare you cloud the issue with facts? Sorry, Dino. The old stock ownership lie is a pet peeve of mine. I'll try to do better in the future. :) |
| hchaudh1 Nov 09, 2006 9:41 AM EDT |
The stockowners issue is really missing the point. On those grounds, MS is perfectly correct in its policies (monopolistic behavior notwithstanding). You cannot debate when stockowners come into the picture. Taco Bell was doing what it had to do to maximize shareholder benefits when it was paying undocumented individuals literally pennies per pound of tomatoes picked. Nike, Addidas, Walmart have perfect justifications for paying their employees in other countries a couple of dollars for a hard days work while the consumers still have to pay $100 for a pair of sneakers. The consumer is no longer a companies customer. The customers are the stockholders. I say why should we not be able to pay $100 for a pair of sneakers that was made in America and $40 for a similar pair made in China, all things like quality being equal. Why am I, as a consumer, not seeing the benefit when a company saves money. But coming back to the existing debate, can anyone tell me exactly what Novell is protecting its stockholders from? Which patents does Linux violate that Novell had to settle "I chose that word very carefully" with MS? Anyone? |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2006 9:51 AM EDT |
>The stockowners issue is really missing the point. On those grounds, MS is perfectly correct in its policies (monopolistic behavior notwithstanding). Ummm...no, at least not with regard to illegal policies. Legal obligations are bounded by a need to follow the law. As to Microsoft being perfectly correct in it's policies that do not fall outside the law, that all depends on whether they make Microsoft stronger or weaker. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 10:03 AM EDT |
> Why am I, as a consumer, not seeing the benefit when a company saves money. Have you checked the prices at Walmart or Target lately? You are seeing the benefit. Not from all companies admittedly, but the companies that serve their customers grow. Those that don't tend to wither. > can anyone tell me exactly what Novell is protecting its stockholders from? From the threat of a lawsuit by Microsoft. Duh. > Which patents does Linux violate... We don't know. That uncertainty is enough to prevent some companies from using Linux. By eliminating that uncertainty, Novell hopes to grow their customer base. Novell's actions are perfectly understandable, from a corporate viewpoint. The question is, do they make sense from a community viewpoint? |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2006 10:47 AM EDT |
>The question is, do they make sense from a community viewpoint? Time will have to tell on that one. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 11:04 AM EDT |
> Time will have to tell on that one. Agreed. In the meantime though, I'm glad I use Slackware. |
| hchaudh1 Nov 09, 2006 1:04 PM EDT |
>Ummm...no, at least not with regard to illegal policies. Legal obligations are bounded by a need to follow the law. True. But the law is only as strong as the people who uphold them. Now, how much does MS pay to lobbyists every year? All these ideas sound good on paper, but the reality is that MS has in the past and still is destroying competetion by unfair means. >You are seeing the benefit. Not from all companies admittedly, but the companies that serve their customers grow. Those that don't tend to wither. I am not really seeing any benefit. Unless you consider the couple of dollars discount on a $20 item to be a good deal keeping in mind the money cities pay to Walmart for opening its doors within their city limits takes away from local budgets for city infrastructure. Or how about so many of their employees are on govt. healthcare which makes you the one who is ultimately paying for these discounts. >From the threat of a lawsuit by Microsoft. Duh. Again, a lawsuit for which infringement? Did Novell know about anything specific? If so, they should have made it open knowledge so that those pieces could be removed instead of dangling like a sword on the Linux community. I really don't like the veiled threats about suing other Linux users that Ballmer is handing out to anyone who would listen. If Novell did not know of any infringing code, then this deal does not make much sense to me. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 1:22 PM EDT |
> If Novell did not know of any infringing code, then this deal does not make much sense to me. It's not designed to make sense to us. It's designed to make sense to Pointy Haired CEO's and their ilk. By having Microsoft officially bless SUSE as a Microsoft approved and lawsuit free solution, Novell has increased their potential market penetration dramatically. |
| dcparris Nov 09, 2006 4:11 PM EDT |
> By having Microsoft officially bless SUSE as a Microsoft approved and lawsuit free solution, Novell has increased their potential market penetration dramatically. That's where the rub really lies for me. There should be no need for Microsoft's blessing. That's where the real trouble lies. Even if there is no cold hard truth to back the notion, it's as if we can only have peace _if_ we first get Uncle Bill's (Steve's?) blessing. That's not peace at all. |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2006 4:19 PM EDT |
Rev - >There should be no need for Microsoft's blessing. Sure, and executives should understand all of that and should understand the difference between low-cost vs cost/benefit and all that good stuff. Think of a million marketing ploys designed to get your foot in the door. It doesn't matter how good you are if you can't get in the door. At least part of the message this deal sends to IT executives is that dealing with Novell is dealing with grown-ups who understand their concerns, or, more to the point, the concerns their bosses will have. Risk management is all the rage these days. |
| dcparris Nov 09, 2006 4:53 PM EDT |
I realize that, Dino. I do. I still think it's cowardice, or at least capitulating to it. |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2006 5:46 PM EDT |
Rev - You say tomato and I say...wait, I say tomato, too. I don't run in the social circles that can get away with saying to - MAH -to. |
| dcparris Nov 09, 2006 6:13 PM EDT |
Yo comprendo. |
| theboomboomcars Nov 10, 2006 6:03 AM EDT |
I came upon this http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq_opensource.html reading an article and it answers some questions. |
| dcparris Nov 10, 2006 9:00 AM EDT |
This is the same link posted, apparently, in another thread. But thanks! :-) |
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