Bad for Microsoft , Bad for Novell...good for Linux
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| maggrand Nov 03, 2006 7:27 AM EDT |
Well sure this is big news. But do this change the Linux landscape in big. This move was too late to manage that. So i can't see it do. As the SUSE dist has become irrelevant in the most part. Ubuntu is the biggest growing dist now adays and i think it will gain even bigger support now. Whith the release of Vista soon, and so far it has not been taken in whith open arms. Microsoft needs a way into the Linux business. Novell is the simplest way.(they thought). Okey sure Microsoft will earn some money from it but thats it. Microsoft can't sue anyone else right now. It will make really bad publicity and hurt Novell even more. So now the case is too not rock the boat. In a few years from now on SUSE linux will be renamed as Microsoft Linux because that the only way they can survive. Does this sound totally crazy. Well think about it. All europe is working to get rid of Microsoft as a dominator in the server/ desktop and so on and the speed is going faster and faster. But what Microsoft has missed is the speed that Linux changes. Novells own linux dist will be irrelevant of all opensource folks abandones it. And they will if Microsoft don't behave. Or even worse people may just dislike Microsoft just because they are who they are (what a suprise). Microsoft and Novell has now a long long long uphill to go. One wrong move and they will both be deposed to the bin. Its your move now..... |
| tuxchick Nov 03, 2006 7:39 AM EDT |
Not only that, but don't you think this gives a seal of approval to Linux that PHBs will understand? All of a sudden Linux is no longer that crazy commie hippie thing, but an official Microsoft partner. This makes Linux legitimate to all those decision makers who don't understand tech or much of anything. |
| hchaudh1 Nov 03, 2006 7:48 AM EDT |
@tuxchick I see what your point is. But MS's past record is not too stellar when it comes to its competetion. What this will give MS is a seat on some (maybe critical, maybe not) Linux decision making meets. Thus, they might gain some leverage over the direction Linux takes. I have been a long time user of Linux, but I don't understand licensing issues at all. Will the source code that MS develops with Novell under an open license too. Is this even a possible scenario that MS ports directx or other libs to SUSE and prevents other distros from using them? |
| maggrand Nov 03, 2006 7:54 AM EDT |
Even Microsoft has too follow the GPL laws so has Novell......so they are trapped... |
| salparadise Nov 03, 2006 8:05 AM EDT |
MS are just snuggling up to Linux so that itś within easy reach come the time to strangle it. It makes the difference between the two harder to see (from the outsiders point of view). And not to be dismissed is the idea that MS want Linux where they can see it. Running in a virtual environment on top of an MS system instead of replacing the MS system. Bye bye SuSE. |
| tuxchick Nov 03, 2006 8:29 AM EDT |
hchaudh1, I agree that novell is likely doomed, and microshaft is trying to influence the direction Linux takes. But as maggrand and others have pointed out, they still have to honor the GPL, and Linux is such a diffuse target, lotsa luck trying to control it. It's so short-sighted- microshaft could use the code and benefit just like everyone else. But no, they're up to their old games of assimilate and conquer. Only it won't work on Linux as a whole, just individual vendors like Novell. |
| dinotrac Nov 03, 2006 9:20 AM EDT |
TC - Good to see there is at least one person on this thread who believes in free software. Microsoft cannot strangle Linux. Free software is like sand, it can squirt through any opening, no matter how small. You are correct -- Microsoft has now joined the parade of big IT names who say that Linux is OKy-Doky. This might even be good for Novell. Think about it from Microsoft's angle: As a company, Microsoft cares about making money. Period. If they can't stop Linux, the next best thing is to make money from it. Creating an actual Microsoft Linux might be a little too hard on the value of the Windows franchise, but collecting royalties on sombody else's is the next best thing. My guess is that Microsoft won't help Novell so much as leave it alone while going after other Linuxes. |
| tuxchick Nov 03, 2006 9:33 AM EDT |
Well dino, there is one thing that keeps getting mentioned as a threat to Linux, and all FOSS as a whole- patents. You probably noticed the very careful language microsoft has been quoted as inserting in the Novell agreements pertaining to patents. Some say that Novell has implicitly admitted that Linux contains reams of patent violations. Which leads to debates over is it true, and isn't the patent system hopelessly broken anyway and most patents are bogus, and we're looking at potentially years and years of expensive settling of these issues, and chilling effects on free software devs who don't feel like being targeted. So there are still some dark clouds floating around. I believe in free software and the robustness of the GPL. I also acknowledge that microsoft is absolutely ruthless and without scruples, even to their own detriment, and that the law is an ass, and it's entirely too difficult and expensive to survive an attack from the likes of the borg even when you're 100% pure and in the right. So we shall see. :) |
| dinotrac Nov 03, 2006 10:04 AM EDT |
>Some say that Novell has implicitly admitted that Linux contains reams of patent violations. Who says that? I can absolutely without equivocation guarantee that nothing in teh agreement admits to patent violations either explicitly or implicitly. Ditto for Microsoft -- who, by the way, could be vulnerable to suit by Novell, who also has a portfolio of patents. I don't know how much Microsoft is likely to wield the patent hammer. They have one very serious problem if they try to get too ham-handed, and that problem can be spelled in 3 little letters: I-B-M. Huge patent portfolio, lots of money, excellent IP lawyers. I'm guessing that Microsoft is in no hurry to pick on somebody its own size, especially since IBM well situated to invalidate Microsoft patents. I could be wrong, of course. |
| tuxchick Nov 03, 2006 10:37 AM EDT |
Then why even mention patents in the agreement at all? I'm no good at interpreting legalese, but it sure sounds weird to even include them in a supposed collaboration agreement. It struck me the same way as this: suppose I'm talking with my neighbor over my rights to our common irrigation ditches, and we're going to be all fair and harmonious and manage the ditches for our common good, and out of the blue he says "and I promise I will never assert an ownership claim on your entire ranch or try to take away your water rights." Like, wtf?? why would he even say this? Today's Groklaw has more interesting commentary: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061103073628401 "It's all about the patent agreement. After the Q&A segment it was clear that the patent agreement was a defacto acknowledgement by Novell that Linux violates MS patents. Ballmer made it clear that the patent agreement protects ONLY users of SuSE Linux. When questioned about wether the patent agreement covered technology which will be developed or if it covers MS patents already existing in Linux the attorney made it clear that the agreement protects existing Linux in the form of SuSE. So MS has found the big Linux vendor foolish enough to "legitimize" a patent claim on Linux by Microsoft. This makes it easier for MS to claim that Linux infringes their "IP" and claim that Novell recognized this "fact" and struck a deal." So, whether Novell gets the usual bendover treatment from Microsoft isn't particularly interesting to me, but there could be some larger implications for Linux and FOSS that could definitely have wider repercussions than the demise/assimilation of Novell. **edit** http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2050848,00.asp "Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer said his company is open to talking to other Linux distributors about reaching mutual patent coverage deals similar to the agreement signed Nov. 2 with Novell. Such talks would be a good idea, Ballmer suggested, since now only Novell's SUSE Linux customers are the only Linux vendors that have any assurance that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement." So we're back to protection racket, methinks! |
| jimf Nov 03, 2006 11:11 AM EDT |
Between the BS in their new EULA, and what they're doing here I think I perceive more than a little confusion. I don't think that MS has any kind of coherent plan, and is just thrashing... Grabbing at anything to stay on top. |
| dinotrac Nov 03, 2006 11:14 AM EDT |
tuxchick - That would be distressing if Linux actually does infringe on **valid** Microsoft patents and almost as distressing if Novell execs believe that it does. It seems more likelt to me that Microsoft is saying that it does and Novell is buying indemnity that they can sell. It's way too easy to simplify this issue. Let's not forget that Microsoft has already paid Novell half a billion dollars to settle an antitrust suit, that Novell still had a civil suit active against Microsoft (didn't verify, but I presume that this agreement includes settlement of that suit), etc. In other words, it's one part of a whole and shouldn't be interpreted out of context. It seems to me that Microsoft gets Novell out of its hair and Novell gets Microsoft out if its hair. Novell gets a marketing edge with corporations (we're the safe alternative and we are blessed by Microsoft) and Microsoft gets a revenue streams AND drops at least one opposing litigant from any further actions. I'll be impressed by Microsoft's belief that Linux infringes valid patents when I see them go after IBM. |
| dthacker Nov 03, 2006 11:36 AM EDT |
dino,
IMO, IBM is not as easy a target, because they do not sell their own distro, they make changes to others (SuSe, RedHat) to run on their hardware. The surprise for me is that Microsoft still thinks they can win customers through legal imtimidation. They kind of thinking attracts state attorney generals who are out to make a name for themselves. Dave |
| dinotrac Nov 03, 2006 12:45 PM EDT |
dthacker - IBM is not a easy target at all, but they are equally infringing if they are selling and supporting an infringing product. Not only that, if Microsoft gets too bellicose, they will discomfit IBM's customer base. I wouldn't expect IBM to take that lying down. |
| tuxchick Nov 03, 2006 1:06 PM EDT |
/me adds "bellicose" to her cool words list One thing is certain- the wailing and gnashing of teeth will continue for some time. I propose an official motto for the FOSS world: "We will end no whine before its time." I still wonder about the patents threat- MicroSCO attacked IBM et all with zero ammunition, and after three years it's still dragging on. So it doesn't seem that holding valid patents, or valid anything, matters all that much to a giant megalocorp with more money than good sense or good products. |
| Sander_Marechal Nov 03, 2006 2:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:I still wonder about the patents threat Which reminds me about a nice tidbit I picked up on the freesoftwaremagazine site. Usually MS patent licenses are in the form of "we won't sue unless you sue us first". Notice anything? It's missing the "... about your products" bit at the end. A bit that IBM, Sun et. al. do use. That means that if you use an MS patent, then you could never use a patent against MS. Ever. Even on a totally unrelated technology. Think the Sender ID flap here. I really want to read the MS-Novell agreement in full. The devil will be in the details. Im guessing that if it gets public, Groklaw will analyse it thoroughly and give us all the dirt. Here's hoping to that. |
| dinotrac Nov 03, 2006 6:43 PM EDT |
>and after three years it's still dragging on Methinks that's the point. SCO has suffered many a tactical defeat in that skirmish and has yet to land a blow. Think of it as a trial run by Microsoft, and one that gives them little room for encouragement. |
| herzeleid Nov 03, 2006 9:32 PM EDT |
Linus himself said "let's see how it pans out" - so that's my take on it for now. |
| dinotrac Nov 04, 2006 3:03 AM EDT |
>Linus himself said "let's see how it pans out" - so that's my take on it for now. Precisely. One must keep one's shorts from getting fouled. It's easy to forget that Linux is no longer the province of a small geek fraternity. Some pretty serious players have joined the space and put billions into play. |
| Sander_Marechal Nov 04, 2006 3:50 AM EDT |
Quoting:Linus himself said "let's see how it pans out" - so that's my take on it for now. Probably right, but it makes me sick to my stomach. Novell is going on my shitlist along such names as Microsoft, SCO and Sony. |
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