actually it works with flash7
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| herzeleid Oct 09, 2006 10:41 AM EDT |
to some degree. last I checked... But it's a valid point that requiring flash or other googaws will make the site inaccessible to some users. The real point here is whether $BIG_CORP will consider this a valid concern to be addressed with website usability changes, or just lump non-flash users in with the 13 remaining webtv users and other fringe groups, and write them off as being not worth any effort to reach... |
| AnonymousCoward Oct 09, 2006 4:55 PM EDT |
Sadly, Toyota was not the worst. Read Mr Coker's later comments to see what else he found (Peugeot works well, for example). |
| wjl Oct 10, 2006 5:52 AM EDT |
I could live with Toyota having a bad - and for me, non-accessible - site. We own a Toyota already. But there are lots of other really cool products, like the envbike (envbike.com), which deserve better pages. Still, according to British Intelligent Energy, they have a quarter billion inquiries about that one, so I guess we won't make any big difference here, like herzeleid thinks... |
| jdixon Oct 10, 2006 7:08 AM EDT |
Yes, it seems to work fine with Flash 7. Apparently it just checks for Flash and prompts you to download the latest version if you don't have it. |
| herzeleid Oct 10, 2006 7:26 AM EDT |
Quoting: wjl: Still, according to British Intelligent Energy, they have a quarter billion inquiries about that one, so I guess we won't make any big difference here, like herzeleid thinks...Actually, I did not say we won't make a difference - I said that the big question was whether $BIG_CORP will consider non-flash users worth reaching. As far as I know, the question has not yet been definitively answered. |
| jimf Oct 10, 2006 7:56 AM EDT |
The latest flash has been the norm on 'all' the American, European, Japanese, and Korean automotive sites here in the US for the last 3 years that I know of. A few of the more polite ones offer non-flash option pages, but don't count on it. Apparently, the thought is that if you don't run MS and the latest version of flash, you can't afford a car, and, will only be riding a bicycle... No, wait... Most of those sites are also flash. Guess we're expected to walk ;-) |
| tuxchick2 Oct 10, 2006 8:15 AM EDT |
You folks seem to be laboring under the impression that marketers are smart, and actually know what they're doing. LOL that's funny. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 10, 2006 1:20 PM EDT |
To everyone on this thread who has admitted to running non-free Flash rendering software. Shame on you! By running this non-free software, you are part of the very problem that defines this "market share" companies like Toyota end up trying to satisfy. By not respecting your own freedom, you have indirectly affected mine. |
| tuxchick2 Oct 10, 2006 1:43 PM EDT |
Unlike other industries, Web devs are incredibly dismissive of the numbers of users they are chasing away. Usability and readability aren't even on their radar- wowing PHBs and idiot marketers with whizbang crap that isn't useful to real people is. Universal access, which was the original mission of the Web, is a big funny joke; the majority of them don't even test on anything but aieee. The possibilities are so big, and the thinking so small: telephones and PDAs, access for vision-impaired visitors, different languages, friendly to slow network links- they have completely lost sight of the goal, which is to communicate information to as many people as possible. When a visitor comes to your Web site and is refused access, that's no different than shutting the door in their face at a physical store. I like the bit in the article about promoting Macromedia instead of Toyota. That's a great point. |
| jimf Oct 10, 2006 1:46 PM EDT |
Just as soon as Linux has a 'viable' open source alternative for flash, I know all here will jump to it. In the mean time, consider your own shame wind0wsr3fund. First you tell us we 'must' abide by your concept of freedom, then, you turn around and say we are depriving you of yours. It's a long walk back to the monastery, especially in bare feet, and having to swing that heavy flail at your backside. No cars or bicycles for you either. Perhaps you'd better get an early start. |
| tuxchick2 Oct 10, 2006 1:53 PM EDT |
Monastery? Don't you mean trollery? I believe it's under the bridge. |
| jimf Oct 10, 2006 2:04 PM EDT |
> The possibilities are so big, and the thinking so small Just the kind of thinking that large Corporate organizations encourage. Innovative thinking, or thinking that is outside official corporate policy is discouraged. MS style customer treatment is acceptable as long as corporate policy is followed. Why are we surprised when this kind of irrational behavior ends up on the web. |
| dcparris Oct 10, 2006 4:55 PM EDT |
I think what wind0wsr3fund is trying to say is that so many are typically willing to give up their freedom because they've been wow'ed by the glitz, and inadvertently encouraging the developers to continue licensing their software in ways that deny end-users the freedom they should have to control the software they run on their computers. Is that pretty close, wind0wsr3fund? |
| jimf Oct 10, 2006 5:31 PM EDT |
I'm actually after the information Don. I could give a darn about the 'glitz'. Actually, I just wish flash would just go away. |
| tuxchick2 Oct 10, 2006 5:38 PM EDT |
Jimf, most web-surfers are. The actions of actual Web users don't matter a whit to the devs. |
| jimf Oct 10, 2006 5:40 PM EDT |
> The actions of actual Web users don't matter a whit to the devs. Excelent point. |
| tuxchick2 Oct 10, 2006 5:47 PM EDT |
I compare Web development to Java development. Users hate Java apps, especially cross-platform, because they're slow, obese, and come with all manner of irritating limitations imposed on them by Java. But Java devs love the darn thing and won't switch to something better. Web devs, or whoever makes the design decisions, are the same. They have their toolkits, their whizbangs, and an insane determination to turn the Web into television, only smaller, slower, and crappier. |
| dek Oct 10, 2006 6:43 PM EDT |
>> Actually, I just wish flash would just go away. Wow!! something we actually agree on!! ;-) It is effing annoying to come up against a web site that is totally flash dependent!! None of the browser tricks work in those. One of my pro sports teams decided to do this and I find their site a lot less usable now in terms of getting infomration quickly and easily. I stopped visiting there because of that. I wish these flash developers would develop some common sense!!! Don K. |
| jdixon Oct 10, 2006 7:20 PM EDT |
> To everyone on this thread who has admitted to running non-free Flash rendering software. > Shame on you! You know, wind0wsr3fund, I don't recall you spending a penny on my system, or helping me install the software on it. If it's all the same to you, I'll decide what goes on it, for my own reasons, thank you very much. In fact, I'll do so even if it isn't all the same to you. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 10, 2006 9:27 PM EDT |
dcparris, You got it. These guys are just too proud and self-centered to see their own wrongs. Imagine how ignorant a person has to be to sell out their own freedom for.........flash!. Then, they hang out on a GNU/Linux site like LXer and claim to be a member of a community. Well I'm tired of these free-as-in-freeloading droids. It makes me sick to think that they're even allowed to use a computer. |
| herzeleid Oct 10, 2006 10:11 PM EDT |
Hold on there windoze refund - cut us some slack OK? There is a lot of diversity in the linux community. People use linux for different reasons, and have different ideas of what's important and what's not. I take a lot of flak from some folks for running nvidia drivers. To me it makes no sense to use linux in a crippled mode, with software emulation of OpenGL, and getting 1 frame every 2 seconds in ut2004. So heck yea, I use the nvidia drivers, and I really don't think I'm somehow losing my freedom in doing so. On the other hand, some of those who criticize me for running nvidia drivers turn out to be windoze users in real life, whose only access to linux is through a windoze putty session. ROFL! I've been running Linux 24x7 for over a decade, and these windoze-running bozos are going to lecture me about freedom? Gotta love it! windoze refund, I'm not lumping you in with that group, I'm just illustrating the wide range of opinions in the linux community. |
| Sander_Marechal Oct 10, 2006 10:30 PM EDT |
Quoting:Well I'm tired of these free-as-in-freeloading droids. Riiight.... Please tell me how many Free Software you have written? I have written quite a bit. I also have Flash installed. Who's the freeloader now eh?! Shut up and show me the code. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 7:12 AM EDT |
sander, So you have the skills required to write software, and yet you run non-free. Now I've seen and heard it all. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 7:18 AM EDT |
herzeleid, "On the other hand, some of those who criticize me for running nvidia drivers turn out to be windoze users in real life, whose only access to linux is through a windoze putty session. ROFL! I've been running Linux 24x7 for over a decade, and these windoze-running bozos are going to lecture me about freedom? Gotta love it!" I couldn't agree more. However, it's not about how long you've been running GNU/Linux, it's about *why* you're running it. It seems to me that many in the open source camp are really just trading one Start Menu for another without taking the time to educate themselves on the history and dedication that went into the creation of this platform. Someone with a solid appreciation for freedoms 0-3 would never run non-free software even if it meant sacrificing trivial eye candy provided by video drivers or flash rendering wares. |
| tuxchick2 Oct 11, 2006 7:43 AM EDT |
+----------+ | PLEASE | | DO NOT | | FEED THE | | TROLL | +----------+ | | | | .|.||/.. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 7:57 AM EDT |
tuxgroupie, You are simply the biggest troll I've ever seen. In addition to showing no understanding or appreciation of FS, you write articles that push non-free software on readers (e.g. FDS + Java), and never seem to say anything constructive. In other words, you bore me. |
| jdixon Oct 11, 2006 8:41 AM EDT |
> In other words, you bore me. Then why do you bother reading her? Or responding for that matter. Wind0wsr3fund, here's a clue. Their systems don't belong to you. You have no right to tell them what to run on them. To even insinuate that you know their requirements and the reasons they make their decisions better than they do is an insult. Insults tend to be responded to in kind (see my above comment). We're not your enemy, though you seem intent on coverting us. However, the fact that we choose, for what ever reasons we decide, to run some non-free software on our systems is none of your damn business. The sooner you understand that, the better for all concerned. |
| dinotrac Oct 11, 2006 8:46 AM EDT |
jdixon - Actually, it's hard to tell what w3f does and does not understand. What seems clear is that w3f has no understanding of freedom as it lives beyond the bumper sticker (4 freedoms) or a color palette that makes room for more than black and white. |
| tuxchick2 Oct 11, 2006 8:50 AM EDT |
He understands perfectly well. That's what makes him an effective troll. |
| dinotrac Oct 11, 2006 9:26 AM EDT |
tc - That would be the alternative (and very reasonable) explanation. I give him the benefit of the doubt, but I am an old softie. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 10:07 AM EDT |
Freedom is not about choosing between what is convenient and what is not. It is not about choosing what is "practical" and what is not. Freedom is about being free; pretty simple. Now I'll bring this into the scope of software.... I am not, and have never been, interested in listening to people's justifications as to why they run non-free wares on their computers. The simple truth is that by doing so, these people are part of the problem. I can't help if people take exception to this truth. Nobody likes being called out as being part of problem so I understand (though object to) the defensive tactics that usually come into play. These are the same people who usually try to defend their actions by manipulating terminology in order to serve their own agenda. One typical and common example of this is when they claim that it is hypocritical for me to impose on their freedom (to run non-free wares) by insisting that they join a community that would never do so. To them, I'll simply offer a reminder that we're not talking about freedom as a broad term. When the word "free" is used in the context of software, it means either "free as in price" or "free as in freedoms 0-3". To that point, I personally am talking about freedoms 0-3. Those who feel the need to justify and defend their practice of supporting (even if indirectly) those who seek to destroy the free software movement will never understand this subtle, yet important distinction. |
| jimf Oct 11, 2006 10:16 AM EDT |
> I give him the benefit of the doubt, but I am an old softie. I don't know why you'd do that dino, he'd never do the same for you. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 10:25 AM EDT |
jimf, I find it to be quite telling how you've chosen to avoid the information I just posted and attack me with assumptions. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 10:30 AM EDT |
jdixon, "Wind0wsr3fund, here's a clue. Their systems don't belong to you. You have no right to tell them what to run on them. To even insinuate that you know their requirements and the reasons they make their decisions better than they do is an insult. Insults tend to be responded to in kind (see my above comment)." and here's a clue for you... Great. You tell these lovers of non-free software to stay off the Internet, stop sending proprietary documents that require non-free viewers to people I interact with, stop giving money to companies that lobby for DRM/TC laws in congress, and you've got a deal. |
| jdixon Oct 11, 2006 10:56 AM EDT |
> You tell these lovers of non-free software to stay off the Internet, stop sending proprietary documents that require non-free viewers to people I interact with, stop giving money to companies that lobby for DRM/TC laws in congress, and you've got a deal. I didn't ask for a deal, and you're in no position to negotiate. I tried to explain the reality of the situation to you. Whether you accept that or not is up to you. Now as to your points: So only totally free systems are now allowed on your Internet? Gee, it's a good thing you don't own my service provider, isn't it? You are, of course, welcome to block my provider's access to any systems over which you have control. I doubt I'll notice, but that's your right. They are YOUR systems after all, not mine. I don't send proprietary formats to your or those you interact with, only to those who request them or I have reason to think would prefer them. I don't voluntarily give money to the DRM/TC companies, though in some cases I may have no choice. I tried to tell you, we're not your enemy. Yet. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 11:09 AM EDT |
Anyone directly or indirectly involved in the attack against my ability to maintain freedoms 0-3 is, of course, my enemy. |
| jdixon Oct 11, 2006 11:14 AM EDT |
> Anyone directly or indirectly involved in the attack against my ability to maintain freedoms 0-3 is, of course, my enemy. You have yet to demonstrate that anyone here is. Our use or non-use of nonfree software has no impact on YOUR ability to maintain those freedoms. They may affect our positions, but they do not affect yours. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 11:29 AM EDT |
and you have provided no evidence to suggest that this use has not impacted my freedoms. In fact, your entire theory is blown out of the water by the very topic of this thread itself. |
| dinotrac Oct 11, 2006 11:46 AM EDT |
>and you have provided no evidence to suggest that this use has not impacted my freedoms. In fact, your entire theory is blown out of the water by the very topic of this thread itself. Now that's getting just a little strange. One concept I do remember from my old lawyering days, brief thought they were, is burden of proof. Why on earth would it be incumbent on anybody to prove that their use does not affect your freedom? Seems to me, that you have failed to establish a case for damage sufficient to shift the burden from you. |
| herzeleid Oct 11, 2006 11:47 AM EDT |
OK, lets try again - I like freedom, in fact I prefer it to non-freedom. But, being pressured not to run any of those sexy graphics drivers on my linux system doesn't feel very liberating. Loading the nvidia drivers is a conscious, freely made decision. If I'm not really free to make that decision, then I'm just not free, no matter how noble the motivation behind denying me that choice. Secondly, the idea that the only worthy reason for running linux is a hunger and thirst for an OS free of any proprietary drivers, is debatable. While I find that freedom does apparently make for great software in many cases, my primary reasons for running linux are not for the sacred ideal of freedom. The reason I run Linux is this: After using many different OSes on many different platforms, I definitely prefer unix to peecee OSes. The drive letters, the single-user paradigm, the backslashes, the awkward, irritating peeceeisms turn me off. I want my unix, with all the power, freedom and flexibility that affords - and linux is the most usable, well-maintained, quickly evolving and accessible flavor of unix available today. Linux blows away all the proprietary unix variants in terms of managability and usability, and in terms of the apps available. It's easy to obtain, and easy to set up for others. I can run it on my laptop, my desktop, and in the data center with equal ease. Whether playing 3D FPS games (with nvidia drivers!), writing and running code for my computer science classes, doing presentations for school or work, exchanging ms office docs with co-workers (by using OOO - they can't tell any difference), watching movies, browsing the web, managing a spam quarantine for 13,000 users and a mail system that does 10 million messages a month, linux is paying the bills and also enabling my play time. Trying to substitute any other OS into that equation would be painful, some OSes more than others. Attempting to put ms windoze into that role would be extremely painful, and probably totally impractical. So, that's why I'm a long time 24x7 linux user - freedom is one part of it, but the ideological drive for purity is outweighed by the practical day to day needs, so I have no problem with running proprietary software on my linux systems, if it helps get the job done. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 11:52 AM EDT |
the state of bliss is just amazing. I'm not going to waste my time with the two of you any more. You're so far in denial at this point. Obviously, you'll each need to get burned (again?) by the restrictions in order to finally realize the true value of freedoms 0-3. Oh and dinotrac, I've already established the proof (see subject this very thread). You just chose to blow it off because you don't like the taste of your foot. |
| dinotrac Oct 11, 2006 12:54 PM EDT |
w3f - >I've already established the proof You've done nothing of the sort. Not only have you not established proof, I'm hard-pressed to see anything that looks very much like evidence. You've ranted and chanted as if waving Mao's little red book, a cartoon revolutionary in hot pursuit of self-defined glory in the face of all reason. That is your right and I will not begrudge you the right to exercise it. You see, I actually believe in freedom. |
| jimf Oct 11, 2006 1:07 PM EDT |
> Anyone directly or indirectly involved in the attack against my ability to maintain freedoms 0-3 is, of course, my enemy. I appreciate your admission of zealotry and trollism. At least that's honest. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 1:34 PM EDT |
Atleast I'm not a free loader pretending to be a supporter of a noble cause. You've been found out. |
| jdixon Oct 11, 2006 1:50 PM EDT |
> You're so far in denial at this point. Obviously, you'll each need to get burned (again?) by the restrictions in order to finally realize the true value of freedoms 0-3. I realize the value of Free software. By preference, I use Free software when it will do what I need. Sometimes I need to use non-free software. That's my decision to make, not yours. If I get burned by it, I have no one but myself to blame. > I've already established the proof You've done nothing of the kind, but I've come to expect a logical proof to be beyond you. Fine, have it your way. Everyone on LX'er except possibly Libervis is obviously your sworn enemy and fit only for contempt, no matter how much we may try to support Free software. |
| herzeleid Oct 11, 2006 3:00 PM EDT |
windoze refund, I think that maybe linux has probably become too successful in the real world to fit any longer into the mold you have in mind for it. So, I would like to suggest that the gnu hurd might be a better choice of OS for you. It's completely open source and GPLd, the hurd coders are much closer to RMS than those rebellious linux folks, and best of all, there is *no* proprietary software available for hurd, nor will there likely be any for the foreseeable future. A good fit, no? |
| Sander_Marechal Oct 11, 2006 3:10 PM EDT |
From the FSF site:Quoting:The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0) So it's perfectly viable to run a Free program (Linux) so you can run a non-free one on top (Flash). It doesn't say "The freedom to run the program, except to run non-free software". It seems that what w3f would really want is to deprive me of freedom 0 - the most fundamental freedom. How ironic for a troll that claims to uphold the four freedoms. As for the freeloader arguement: Pot - kettel. You're a freeloader yourself. All you contribute are pointless rants. I say again: Shut up and show me the code. Or documentation, or whatever you contributed besides drivel. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 4:13 PM EDT |
herzeleid, Hurd is a kernel, not an OS. |
| herzeleid Oct 11, 2006 4:31 PM EDT |
Quoting: windoze refund: Hurd is a kernel, not an OS. Actually, it's Linux that is a kernel. but that makes no odds, you can run hurd or linux systems without knowing or caring about that distinction. In fact, I'm a bit surprised you didn't know about the debian hurd distro that has been in the works for awhile now. http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/ |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 11, 2006 4:36 PM EDT |
sander, Again, I'm tired of the justifications people like you use to defend your lack of ethics. There is nothing respectable about using freedom to deny someone else theirs. This is exactly what you do when you bastardize your free OS with non-free wares and then go on to convince others to do the same. Personally, I don't believe you deserve to benefit from FS since you obviously have no dedication to or appreciation for it. As far as you claim goes, what exactly gave you the impression that I owe you any information? Who exactly do you think you are? If you wish to query me on my resume, you'll need to drop the attitude and rephrase your question from the form of a challenge into an inquiry. Of course, you'll also need to convince me that your reasons are sound. Only at that time would I consider listing my credentials and work. On a related note, I feel bad for the newcomers to LXer. The ones that have to suffer these typical open source POVs that are void of any hint or trace of the Free Software mission. Which, by the way, the open source "movement" simply bastardized in the name of pragmatism to begin with. It is the fault of the watered-down open source movement's propaganda machine that has people running flash, Java, nvideo drivers, and MS Office via Wine on their GNU/Linux machines. Someone versed in the rich history of the Free Software agenda would never sell out by trading in their freedoms for simple eye candy. Again, to all of you running Adobe's flash rendering software, you should be ashamed. |
| Scott_Ruecker Oct 11, 2006 5:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:On a related note, I feel bad for the newcomers to LXer. The ones that have to suffer these typical open source POVs that are void of any hint or trace of the Free Software mission. Which, by the way, the open source "movement" simply bastardized in the name of pragmatism to begin with. It is the fault of the watered-down open source movement's propaganda machine that has people running flash, Java, nvideo drivers, and MS Office via Wine on their GNU/Linux machines. Someone versed in the rich history of the Free Software agenda would never sell out by trading in their freedoms for simple eye candy. w3f, you are a fundalmentalist. I respect that. But do not expect others to feel the need to adhere to your personal code of ethics. Nor do you have the right to ridicule others for decisions that are not your responsibility or job to change. |
| dinotrac Oct 11, 2006 5:51 PM EDT |
W3f - >is is exactly what you do when you bastardize your free OS with non-free wares and then go on to convince others to do the same. What an utterly idiotic assertion. Nothing I do with my computer denies you your freedom. Nothing, nada, no way no how. You don't even know what I run on my computer. You certainly aren't affected by it. Instead, you would rather cry like a 3 year old. "Oh poor me. I just know there are people out there doing things that I wish they wouldn't do. How dare they!! Don't they know I'm the smartest and most ethical person anywhere? Mommy!!! Make those bad people stop misbehaving!" |
| dcparris Oct 11, 2006 9:27 PM EDT |
W3F: I have to admit that, I agree for the most part withthe idea that non-libre software robs us all of the 4 freedoms and therefore all of us should refuse it. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with that viewpoint. Frankly, though, your approach is just wrong. Example: Picture me in the redlight district in your favorite big city, keeping in mind my clergy credentials. Now picture me standing on the street corner telling everyone who passes by that they should be ashamed of themselves for going into the bars. Or, "Hey, that's a prostitute you're talking to - you shouldn't want to be seen with her!". How about this? "Hey! That's a crack dealer - don't go near him! Honestly, most people would wonder what planet I just flew in from. Well, the ones that didn't beat me with a lead pipe, anyway. People would laugh, deride me, and the whole nine yards. And it wouldn't make any difference that half of them grew up in churches, either. They would eventually just ignore me or kill me - anything, as long as I just shut up and go away. What you are doing here is antagonistic in the same way. It's irritating and aggravating. The worse part is that, for all your self-righteous ranting, you're actually not convincing anyone that you are right. Since the definition of insanity is continuing to do what you know doesn't work, it only makes sense to try a different approach. These folks are just as quick to point out the chinks in my armor as they are with you. The difference is that I don't scold them for disagreeing with me. If we're going to disagree, we may as well at least enjoy ourselves in the process, as opposed to getting our shorts twisted because someone actually uses flash. I really don't have a problem with flash, as a concept. I don't want a non-libre implementation, and I do want it to be kept in its place - certainly not as an intro to a website. But otherwise, I think flash can be kind of cool. |
| Sander_Marechal Oct 11, 2006 10:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:Personally, I don't believe you deserve to benefit from FS since you obviously have no dedication to or appreciation for it. So you want to deny me freedom 0. Thank you for proving my point. Quoting:As far as you claim goes, what exactly gave you the impression that I owe you any information? You're calling me a freeloader. I can prove I'm not. Can you? |
| Sander_Marechal Oct 11, 2006 10:25 PM EDT |
Quoting:Picture me in the redlight district in your favorite big city, keeping in mind my clergy credentials. Now picture me standing on the street corner telling everyone who passes by that they should be ashamed of themselves for going into the bars. Or, "Hey, that's a prostitute you're talking to - you shouldn't want to be seen with her!". How about this? "Hey! That's a crack dealer - don't go near him! Funny enough, there's a guy in my hometown doing exactly that. Everyone just ignores and ridicules him (we call him "Jesus"). Bar personell tend to chase him away. That guy standing preaching at your terrace is bad for business since people will go to another bar. He's there pretty much every day, the year around. I admire his determination but I think he's a tool :-) |
| jdixon Oct 12, 2006 6:11 AM EDT |
> I admire his determination but I think he's a tool Tool or fool? I've done my very best to give w3f the benefit of a doubt throughout his continous insulting diatribes, but I've had enough. He has no idea why or why I might not need flash, which web sites I have a need to visit, or much of anything about me. Yet he thinks he's fit to determine what software I should and should not run on my system. If he's not a troll, he's doing an excellent job of impersonating one. That said, just as your person has a right to stand on the public street corner and call for people to reform, w3f has the right to post in this quasi-public forum. Unlike him, most of the people here do believe in freedom, and would not want to deny him that right. It just sad that someone who claims to believe so strongly in Free software concepts should be so poor at advocating them, and have such a limited understanding of what real freedom is all about. |
| Sander_Marechal Oct 12, 2006 8:10 AM EDT |
Hear hear. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 12, 2006 9:31 AM EDT |
justifications, excuses, and copouts... oh my! |
| Sander_Marechal Oct 12, 2006 11:51 PM EDT |
Words, words, words... oh my! |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 13, 2006 7:18 AM EDT |
sander, I've heard you do quite a bit of "talking" yourself. As for your claims of being a contributor, I have no way of knowing if this is true or not. What I do know however, is that your use of non-free wares is a direct contradiction. While I may not be a coder, I am confident that my activism (e.g. NYLXS, windowsrefund.info, etc), speeches/presentations, bug reports, testing, script submissions, the fact that I get paid to support only free software, along with my conviction and refusal to use non-free for *any* purpose measures up quite well in the context of being a contributor to the free software movement. In other words, if you are using non-free wares, you are really not in a position to compare resumes. |
| tuxchick2 Oct 13, 2006 7:29 AM EDT |
Hey, you guys are way off questioning w3f's contributions to free software. He holds the world record for chasing people away from it, and believe me being a world-record holder takes a lot of dedication. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 13, 2006 7:38 AM EDT |
tg, Rest assured, when people start considering free software as a result of my interaction with them, they know they're buying into freedoms 0-3. I don't mask my agenda with pragmatism and bury the issue of freedom like I've seen from many in the open source "movement". The truth is, I bother you because I see right through your lack of understanding and convictions. If it weren't for people like me holding you accountable for your dribble, every newcomer to this board would end up installing Java, flash, and who knows what other freedom-restricting binaries as a result of your input. |
| galeru Oct 13, 2006 7:53 AM EDT |
w3f, Have you ever read "How to Win Friends and Influence People"? I'm going to guess that if you have, you discounted it. In there, it says that when directly challenged, people get defensive. Just through this thread, it's apparent the guy wasn't just lying through his teeth. He actually suggests that you shouldn't argue, and never say that the other person is wrong. Maybe, just maybe, if you were less confrontational, and more sympathetic, you could win a few people over. For example, instead of saying "everyone who uses NVIDIA or ATI binary drivers are ruining my view of the world, and must be punished", you could say, "It really sucks that NVIDIA or ATI are keeping their drivers proprietary. How about we all go support the Open Graphics videocard, when that comes out, it will be so much more stable, and then we won't have to worry about binary kernel blobs!" Just a suggestion. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 13, 2006 9:02 AM EDT |
thanks coach |
| dinotrac Oct 13, 2006 9:48 AM EDT |
>The truth is, I bother you because I see right through your lack of understanding and convictions. You think you bother tuxchick? A nasty sinus headache my bother her. I'm sure a sick horse would bother her, bad brakes on her car (truck?), etc. But you? That I find hard to believe. Oh, I suppose you induce some sort of bother...rather like the bother of reaching over to flick on the wipers so that you can see the road ahead. A few responses to let others know that people who love freedom are every bit as welcome to use free software as you are. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 13, 2006 10:24 AM EDT |
Spare me dino. I know a sellout defending another sellout when I see it. Your attempts to diminish the value of my message are pointless. Freedoms 0-3 are being defended, advocated, and spread regardless of your little group's efforts to cast them aside for flash and Java. You're welcome. |
| jdixon Oct 13, 2006 10:26 AM EDT |
> Freedoms 0-3 are being defended, advocated, and spread regardless of your little group's efforts to cast them aside for flash and Java. Perhaps, but not by you. Not in English at any rate. I'll still give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you're more convincing in your other languages. |
| wind0wsr3fund Oct 13, 2006 10:32 AM EDT |
yep, the gang's all here |
| dcparris Oct 13, 2006 10:41 AM EDT |
W3F: I don't know how many times you will need it explained that no one is diminishing the value of your message - except you. You do it all by yourself by attacking others. You said, "thanks coach", to galeru, as if you understood and might consider implementing his suggestion, but then continue on attacking people. Either you get it, or you don't. If you do get it, you're ignoring it. If you don't, I'm not sure I or anyone else here can help you get it. To everyone else: we can continue to waste our time on this, or we can move on to other things. It's up to each of us. I'll monitor this thread, but I'm just tired of responding to this person. |
| jdixon Oct 13, 2006 10:44 AM EDT |
> yep, the gang's all here It's an honor to be considered part of such fine company. |
| dinotrac Oct 13, 2006 11:37 AM EDT |
hmmm.... S**t happens. Baby on Board My other car's a Mercedes I like Ike Save the whales Have a Nice Day Revolution Now Make Love, Not War Freedoms 0-3 Yup. Fits in pretty well. |
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