If you didn't think persecution was alive and well...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| cjcox Sep 15, 2006 8:05 PM EDT |
Total lack of understanding. All in all... a TYPICAL secular view. Why not leave them alone... oh I forgot... THEY'RE CHRISTIANS!! Obviously I didn't see anything I didn't expect though. ...typical... |
| dcparris Sep 15, 2006 9:59 PM EDT |
CJ, devnet wasn't picking on the faith issue so much as the technological question of forking a project. See my last post on the other thread. Devnet - anyone - has a right to question/criticize the guy's decision. I certainly don't expect anyone to *not * criticize people of faith, especially where a technical issue lies. That is what devnet was questioning - the guy's technical decision, not his faith. I think you'll find that some in the Christian FOSS community also question the guy's decision, and for mostly the same reasons. |
| Teron Sep 16, 2006 2:25 AM EDT |
AFAIK, Ubuntu Christian Edition is just Ubuntu with some additional packages installed. Wouldn't it be easier to just upload the stuff into the Ubuntu repositories and make a metapackage? End result is pretty much the same, just without an extra fork. |
| dinotrac Sep 16, 2006 2:54 AM EDT |
Rev - I think you're being too kind. >the third point I have is that they'll piss people off...Period. Many people don't want to have religion brought into their Linux Well, guess what? Freedom means being able to pursue your dreams/wants/needs even when some people get pissed off. If anybody is expressing a sentiment like the author's, then Christian Editions are needed, not for technical reasons, but to exercise and thus protect the freedom that the free software community claims to care about. |
| devnet Sep 16, 2006 10:48 AM EDT |
dino, It's vastly different when you push an idea as opposed to a technological preference. That was my point...I cannot bash Christianity because I'm a Christian...it would be silly for me to bash something that I am. I also stated that I understood the developer had the right to do whatever he/she/they wanted to...just that it was silly to do the same work over and over again IMHO. See, it's like proprietary software to me...if I put that (proprietary software) into my FLOSS distro I have running, it ceases to be FLOSS. The same is for many Christians...you put one thing (a cross for non-trinitarian Christians etc) into a distro that could compromise whatever they consider Christian to them...then it doesn't work for them and incites quite a bit of animosity. That's my point...it's hard to accurately define Christianity...so it's just as hard to please groups with it. If someone were making an Ubuntu Blackbox edition, they wouldn't piss off people that didn't use Blackbox as a window manager. But if you make a Christian Edition, you might piss people off that don't use the Christian Edition? Why? Because a distro centered on an ideal brings with it the emotions and support/nonsupport of everyone that is familiar with that ideal. Blackbox isn't an ideal...but Christianity is. This is my entire point to the "pissed off" sentence...nothing else. Freedom means to pursue your dreams/wants/needs even when people are pissed off about it...but it doesn't mean that you should ignore all things and opinions happening around you on your path to accomplishing those goals/dreams/wants/needs. As I stated, it's within the developers right/need/dream/want to develop this...I question whether he/she/they couldn't accomplish it with less work. |
| devnet Sep 16, 2006 10:49 AM EDT |
cjcox, You didn't even read the article did you? If you did, you wouldn't have said what you did because it really makes you look sily. |
| dinotrac Sep 16, 2006 11:40 AM EDT |
devnet - I can understand your "pissed off" point, but, IMHO (and only there), it illustrates a poor comprehension of freedom by those who might be pissed off. My comment was directed at them, not you. When you have a movement centered around "freedom, as in speech", you had better understand and respect what freedom, as in speech, really means. Reminds me of an experience while attending Linuxworld some years ago. A friend sneezed and I said, "Bless you." I got a diatribe about his being an atheist, yada-yada, and thank you very much, please don't bless me. I told him that was fine, but that I was a Christian, I did believe in God, and I sincerely hoped that God would smile on him and help him to feel better. "Bless you" was the best concise expression of that I had, and I wasn't going to change it for him, whethere or not he believed in God." My friend, being neither stupid, insane, nor just plain nasty, understood my point and never gave me grief for a "bless you" again. No conversions, no revalation, just another chance for a couple of different people to understand enough to raise the level of civility in this world. Not an all bad thing. As to any need for the distro...sure. Sounds like ich---ich--- Oh, you know what I mean -- already has that territory covered pretty well. OTOH, we've already got a bazillion other distros nobody needs. What's one more? |
| dek Sep 16, 2006 12:18 PM EDT |
Perhaps a better approach to the problem of developing specialized distros like this is to do what automatix does for Ubuntu. Instead of having a specialized distro, set up some scripts that will download and set up the necessary packages. This has advantages in that you can then customize the scripts for various distros. Just a thought. . . |
| herzeleid Sep 16, 2006 2:10 PM EDT |
Whether a Christian edition is needed is a moot point. What was interesting though, is all the howls of rage that arose in response to the announcement. I mean c'mon, we're linux users. That means we have some important things in common, and I can respect that common ground whether my fellow linux user is a Mormon, a Hindu, a Muslim or a Jew. The last thing we should be doing is looking for differences. If someone wants to create a Christian edition, cool! If someone wants to create a Hindu edition, cool! After all, there are atheist distros, and satanic distros, so what's up with all the indignation over a distro tailored to one's religious beliefs? Maybe we should really just live and let live. |
| dcparris Sep 16, 2006 5:39 PM EDT |
>As to any need for the distro...sure. Sounds like ich---ich--- Oh, you know what I mean -- already has that territory covered pretty well. OTOH, we've already got a bazillion other distros nobody needs. What's one more? Even though Ichthux came out later, I believe they have been in development far longer. As for whether people get "pissed off", I don't think that should be a factor in anyone's decision to launch a faith-targeting distro. I would just do what I always do when the issue comes up - tell the PO'd to calm their nerves. So many people take the idea of taking technology to faith-based organizations and twist it to say that the faith-based organizations are bringing their faith to the technology. I know it's just the nature of humans, but I see it as Microsoft-styled FUD. FSF: "We believe software should be libre" MS: "The FSF is a bunch of communists" True Believers: "We believe that our organizations should use this technology" Unbelievers: "The faith folks are trying to proselytise us" All I can say is, use your brain. |
| jimf Sep 16, 2006 7:26 PM EDT |
As I've said, whether of not Christian users decide develop a Distro release for Christians is fine by Linux, the GPL, and certainly by me. I know that, when I was doing support for Mepis, one of the most asked for apps, by Christian users, was bibletime, so, I wasn't at all surprised when this Distro popped up. As far as I can see, any debates on why and how this should be developed is now in the hands of the Christian developers, the rest of us should just butt out... So I for one will :). |
| dinotrac Sep 16, 2006 7:31 PM EDT |
>All I can say is, use your brain. I have to admit, that would be a refreshing change of pace for some people. |
| devnet Sep 16, 2006 7:36 PM EDT |
jimf, If you agree to have NO opinions on Debian, I'll butt out of having opinions for Ichtux and Ubuntu CE...afterall, they're both just Linux right? |
| jimf Sep 16, 2006 7:44 PM EDT |
> If you agree to have NO opinions on Debian, I'll butt out of having opinions for Ichtux and Ubuntu CE...afterall, they're both just Linux right? But, you are a professed Christian... right? I just said that Christians 'should' be the ones involved in this. Sorry if i wasn't clear on that. We could try 'If you agree to have NO opinions on PCLOS, I'll butt out of having opinions for Debian'.... Naw ;-) |
| dcparris Sep 16, 2006 9:20 PM EDT |
I think people have a right to criticize the developer's decision on it's technical merits, regardless of whether they are members of a given faith. The distro maintainers should be able (or learn) to discern between constructive criticism and idiotic comments that can be ignored. I also think that people of faith simply need to summon their quiet, gentle "strength" and tell those who criticise them for mixing faith and technology, um, to "shove off", as it were. :-) |
| jimf Sep 16, 2006 9:33 PM EDT |
> I think people have a right to criticize the developer's decision on it's technical merits, regardless of whether they are members of a given faith. Absolutely, but not where the material gets faith related. All users should be sensitive as to where that dividing line occurs, but unfortunately, many aren't. |
| hiohoaus Sep 17, 2006 3:30 PM EDT |
Mandriva (for one) ships with a Bible & some other Christian materials aboard, and I don’t see any great hullabaloo about that. On the idea of “preferences”, it may not be obvious that materialistic-only software is also a religious preference — & I’ve seen that get in people’s faces at least as much as a crucifixion splash-screen would. Finally, what’s being discussed is a Christian edition of the distro, not replacing the distro with a Christian version. So if Christian material offends you, download a different edition of the distro. Problem solved. I’d like to see some “emphasis packs” set up to be simply downloadable & burnable to CD; that way the main distro can be materialist (or not) and you need only burn another CD to totter off into the bush equipped with a Christian (or Muslim, or Bhuddist, or whatever) distro. Even better (except from a support perspective, of course) would be config for something like the Reconstructor so you could emphasise your own distro to suit. |
| nalf38 Sep 17, 2006 5:01 PM EDT |
>the third point I have is that they'll piss people off...Period. Many people don't want to have religion brought into their Linux. What does he mean? Linux *is* a religion. Hee hee. But seriously, you can't get pissed about a CE version of some Linux flavor if you're going to let GPL software be used in military applications. You can't pick and choose. Free speech means free speech for everyone, even with the view points you disagree with. And this is coming from an atheist and someone who is very anti-military. I do think that the author has good points about the technical merits of a fork for just a few extra pieces of software. |
| devnet Sep 18, 2006 5:16 PM EDT |
I'm not arguing over free speech or the GPL. You're preaching to the choir. |
| Sander_Marechal Sep 19, 2006 3:47 AM EDT |
> you can't get pissed about a CE version of some Linux flavor if you're going to let GPL software be used in military applications. You can't pick and choose. Ofcourse we can't pick and choose, but that doesn't mean we can't get peeved off by it and write nasty comments! |
| dcparris Sep 19, 2006 5:54 AM EDT |
>but that doesn't mean we can't get peeved off by it and write nasty comments! Which would be more understandable if people weren't so quick to misconstrue (or twist) the goals of those targeting religious groups with libre technology into something else - even when clearly stated. But that's just people being people. :-) |
| devnet Sep 19, 2006 12:15 PM EDT |
I just hate to see efforts duplicated...a meta package would be more than enough. |
| jimf Sep 19, 2006 12:32 PM EDT |
> I just hate to see efforts duplicated Now that one is bogus. Like why more than one GUI desktop, or one word processor app, or, ... the list goes on. Truth is that if someone is interested in doing the project, it will probably see the light of day. Our choice is to participate, use and support it or not. And yes, it's a pretty inefficient way of doing things :) |
| devnet Sep 19, 2006 2:43 PM EDT |
not those efforts jim...I mean the effort of cloning an entire desktop and packaging it then rebranding it. It's a ton of work for something that could be a meta-package. That's what I'm speaking of. Not Abiword vs. OOo Writer or anything like that. |
| jimf Sep 19, 2006 3:09 PM EDT |
> I mean the effort of cloning an entire desktop and packaging it then rebranding it. It's a ton of work for something that could be a meta-package. I know, but, the issue is the same. It is also the idea that one man's labor of love may be anothers nightmare. The only resolution is for everyone involved (in this case the Christian community) to agree to do it as a meta instead. Really devnet, Linux, and in fact, the world is filled with misguided and inefficient projects like this. No big surprise to see one more. |
| hiohoaus Sep 19, 2006 4:20 PM EDT |
jimf: and why stop at just one meta? Metas for specific localisations, Islamic packages, Atheist saying-of-the-day (well, what would an Atheist take as official? I see it varying case-to-case), an astronomy meta full of planets, galaxies etc, an aircraft meta, a cars meta, a nature meta, sports metas, sci-fi metas... If the meta packages could be made suitably modular, it would be not much more complex than choosing meals at a restaurant; in fact, you could have a base distro & a separate "metas" medium with a pack or few of metas on it. Welcome to the Malay/nature/edutainment/sports version of Ubuntu? |
| jimf Sep 19, 2006 4:52 PM EDT |
> and why stop at just one meta? not my call. |
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