The more the merrier...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| r_a_trip Sep 15, 2006 4:59 PM EDT |
I, personally, have no use for an Ubuntu CE distro, as I believe the concept and the range of God to be so vast it can't fit the tiny Christian mold. On the other hand, FL/OSS is about freedom, which also embeds the inalienable right to fork. If someone wants to make a distro dedicated to a Christian lifestyle, go ahead. As long as Ubuntu Christian Edition has the legal right to use Canonicals trademarks, I see no harm in Ubuntu CE. |
| jimf Sep 15, 2006 5:14 PM EDT |
As far as I'm concerned, this is a non issue. |
| herzeleid Sep 15, 2006 5:16 PM EDT |
Or, could it be that the concept and range of Christianity is too vast to fit your tiny concept of it? It's a fair question. |
| jimf Sep 15, 2006 5:37 PM EDT |
herzeleid, Actually, it's not a fair, or, pertinent question. Linux and Foss are available to anyone who wants to use them. As far as Religion is concerned, Linux and FOSS are agnostic. If you want a Religious debate, go elsewhere. |
| herzeleid Sep 15, 2006 5:58 PM EDT |
jimf: > If you want a Religious debate, go elsewhere. Are you saying that certain subjects are taboo here? Someone made a statement about Christianity, and I questioned the basis of his statement. Last I checked there were all sorts of subjects being discussed on this forum, and I hadn't been told that religion and philosophy were off limits. |
| vonskippy Sep 15, 2006 6:28 PM EDT |
Math not Myths I wish the self deluded (i.e. religious freaks of any flavor or nationality) would keep their fairy tale beliefs to themselves. Like having toe fungus, being religious is not something to admit to, nor should it be discussed in public. If you can't develop enough brain cells to determine fact from fantasy, and enough emotional maturity to not need a Santa Claus to attribute all of life's trials and tribulations to - well that's pathetic, but it's your life. Just don't infect the rest of us with your delusions. |
| jimf Sep 15, 2006 6:39 PM EDT |
herzeleid, I'm saying that whether you're a Christian or a Buddhist, or a Muslim, or an Atheist... or anything else for that matter, you have the right to use and modify GPL'd software. I'm also saying that starting a Religious debate is inappropriate. r_a_trip simply said the Distro was not for him, and gave reasons for that. That's personal opinion, believe it or not, but, debating on it does no one any good. Your comment as much as called him mentally deficient, which is a personal slam. But then, you knew that. --- vonskippy, That whole rant was even more inflammatory and uncalled for. |
| herzeleid Sep 15, 2006 6:42 PM EDT |
vonskippy - That's a pretty extreme point of view, and it really says a lot about you. Naturally, you're free to believe anything you want, but it would be preferable if you keep your insults to yourself - |
| herzeleid Sep 15, 2006 6:49 PM EDT |
jimf said: > Your comment as much as called him mentally deficient, which is a personal slam. But then, you knew that. OK, let's look at this logically: r_a_tripp: "Christianity is narrow" me: "Could it be your concept of Christianity that is narrow?" Explain how my statement is the slam here. |
| dcparris Sep 15, 2006 6:54 PM EDT |
Herzeleid, religious discussions are, technically, off-limits on LXer. We recognize the subject is not entirely avoidable, as in the case of religious groups choosing to deploy libre software. Let's stay away from the religious debates though. LXer is not a forum for debating whether there is or is not a God, gods, or whatever spiritual beings. It is a place where people who hold a variety of beliefs can come and show each other respect, despite the differences. jimf and I definitely have different beliefs, yet we also respect each other's right to believe what we do. vonskippy, I highly recommend that you learn to respect others' beliefs, too. > Like having toe fungus, being religious is not something to admit to, nor should it be discussed in public. If you can't develop enough brain cells to determine fact from fantasy, and enough emotional maturity to not need a Santa Claus to attribute all of life's trials and tribulations to - well that's pathetic, but it's your life. That certainly isn't very respectful of others' beliefs. You could have just said that you don't believe in God. [edit] More to the point, you could have just said that Ubuntu CE isn't for you. > Just don't infect the rest of us with your delusions. No one has. It's a really good idea to "let the sleeping dogs lie." We have long ago established that we don't want to engage in such discussions, so let's not get started. Thanks! |
| jimf Sep 15, 2006 7:05 PM EDT |
> jimf and I definitely have different beliefs, yet we also respect each other's right to believe what we do. vonskippy, I highly recommend that you learn to respect others' beliefs, too. Well said, and, thank you Don :) |
| dcparris Sep 15, 2006 7:36 PM EDT |
As for the need for Ubuntu CE, it is definitely sorely lacking, and apparently is a mere "first step". I'm not sure the author of the distro was aware of the already in-progress Ichthux project, or for that matter, the 2 listservs and a web forum or two or three, devoted to helping Christians (specifically) discover and deploy FOSS solutions. It's almost as if he just decided to step out on his own - I'm not sure he even attempted to find our community. The lead developer of Ichthux has at least become part of the Ubuntu community, and has teamed up with other Ubuntu, Debian, and Sword Project folks. They seem to have a much better concept of how to handle the packaging. You can, in fact, run apt-get to install Ichthux over your current Ubuntu install, kind of like what devnet spoke of in his blog. However, Ichthux will replace your default installation if you do it that way. Ichthux goes much further in its effort to provide a solution stack for Christians. In my view, any specialized distro like Ubuntu CE, Ichthux, or others, is really just a solution stack - an end-to-end solution that end-users or local admins can deploy with relative ease and speed. That's the point of a Christian-oriented GNU/Linux distro - at least one that aims to be a technologically sound distro. Faith-related eye-candy does not a faith-based distro make. :-) In essence, I disagree that there is no need for such a specialized distro. Yet, I also agree with devnet's bottom line - that adding an app or two and calling it Ubuntu CE is stretching the imagination just a bit. Incidentally, some of this is literally my fault. When I wrote "Penguin in the Pew", I wrote that Christians could set up a specialized distro just for churches. So a number of people actually set out to do just that. Some efforts died on the wire, still more an idea than a real distro. Eventually, some of these guys got together and started Ichthux. I think it very nearly died also, save for Raphael hooking up with the Ubuntu community. Raphael is pretty smart - he understood that our community needed someone who would actually be willing to learn about package management and the whole nine yards. So, even thought it cost him a lot of time in the short term, he gained in the long run by taking the long (high?) road. Raphael is also interested in the Libre Software Solution Stack (LS3) spec being advocated by The Freely Project (USA). If we can nail down some of the finer points, we'll have a solid distro that some local church tech can install and run. |
| dcparris Sep 15, 2006 7:43 PM EDT |
> Well said, and, thank you Don :) Thank you for working to avoid the sure-to-come flamefest. If I understand correctly, it was in the Great Religious Flame War of April '06 (or was it May?) that I earned your (and maybe even some others') respect as a moderator. I do hope to keep everyone's trust and respect. I also hope to avoid any more such ugliness. :-) |
| r_a_trip Sep 16, 2006 2:45 AM EDT |
Herzeleid, don't worry. Even if my narrow mind can't grasp the depth of Christianity, I won't start a large scale persecution against people of Christian faith. I'll even throw in some pagan wisdom: An it harm none, do what ye will. Which basically was what I said in my post at the beginning of the thread. |
| dinotrac Sep 16, 2006 2:57 AM EDT |
r_a_trip: I think it was "the tiny Christian mold" part. Pretty smug and dismissive. |
| r_a_trip Sep 16, 2006 4:56 PM EDT |
Pretty smug and dismissive. Might be smug and dismissive, but then again, what force of nature compels me to accept whatever belief system hook, line and sinker? As an aside, sending out missionaries is also pretty dismissive of "foreign" belief systems... But before I end up in a pot and kettle flame, I'd rather accept a "narrow" label than unsuccessfully fight a static concept. (Yeah, I'm nasty with a mean streak...) |
| dinotrac Sep 16, 2006 5:32 PM EDT |
>Might be smug and dismissive, but then again, what force of nature compels me to accept whatever belief system hook, line and sinker? Where on earth did that come from? Nobody's compelling you to do anything. You are simply choosing to insult people for no good reason. >As an aside, sending out missionaries is also pretty dismissive of "foreign" belief systems... Hmmm. Let's see. Yeah, I guess it's pretty bad to share your beliefs with others, set up clinics, schools, and all of that other bad stuff. That Mother Theresa and Biship TuTu were pretty folks. Sorry, now you've got me doing it. It's just so hard to take you seriously on an intellectual basis when you say such silly things. |
| r_a_trip Sep 16, 2006 6:13 PM EDT |
You are simply choosing to insult people for no good reason. Ah, so my beliefs are an insult to anybody of Christian faith and I have to self-sensor so no Christian will feel uncomfortable by being confronted with a person not following Christian dogma. As far as I can see I defended the existence of the Christian fork of Ubuntu, even if my personal beliefs label the thing as a superfluous curiosity aimed at a belief-system I don't subscribe to. Which is exactly what I stated in my thread starter. FL/OSS has that embedded freedom to use the software for whatever purpose you see fit. Including starting distributions that might seem redundant. Hmmm. Let's see. Yeah, I guess it's pretty bad to share your beliefs with others, set up clinics, schools, and all of that other bad stuff. That Mother Theresa and Biship TuTu were pretty folks. Glossing over the nastier stuff, aren't we? Before white men came to colonize and save the "savages", they were doing quite alright in their environments. It was after whites destroyed their culture, that they needed our help as a crutch to survive. Help we give, partially motivated out of guilt for the tremendous wrongs done. And yes, I've found out that sharing your beliefs with others is bad, when you are outnumbered by those who try to fight your beliefs. I should have the freedom to have a different belief and not have to hide it, even if some groups feel uncomfortable about that. Guess not. Might makes right. Sorry, now you've got me doing it. It's just so hard to take you seriously on an intellectual basis when you say such silly things. Label me the lunatic, if it makes you feel better and makes it easier for you to dismiss me as a thing not worth your time. There might have been a time that I might have cared about what others thought of me, but since I've realized we are all bungling, bald apes (including myself) it doesn't carry that much weight anymore... |
| dcparris Sep 16, 2006 6:18 PM EDT |
Are you guys getting anywhere, or just blowing steam? ;-) |
| r_a_trip Sep 16, 2006 7:04 PM EDT |
Are you guys getting anywhere, or just blowing steam? ;-) Well I thought my first post said it all. After that, my openly mentioned personal beliefs are dragged further to the front, instead of the core of the message, which is that it doesn't matter how redundant (or not) Unbuntu CE is, FL/OSS embeds the right to start such a distribution. It seems to be difficult to be non-Christian. People hammer on the stuff that is secondary. Even if it might be counter to somebodies worldview, my beliefs are not the main substance in my first entry. I merely illustrated that for me a world with or without Ubuntu CE would be the same, but that I supported the right to start the distro, irrespective of if it is duplication of effort or a thing that pisses people off. The funny thing is that nobody has noticed this. |
| jimf Sep 16, 2006 7:11 PM EDT |
> It seems to be difficult to be non-Christian. Welcome to America... I'm really not sure why that's news, or, such a shock to you :). |
| r_a_trip Sep 16, 2006 7:12 PM EDT |
Even funnier is the fact that vonskippy seemingly seems to be able to "get away with murder", but my minority belief is seen as a dangerous full scale attack on an established religion. People, so weird and obnoxious that I can't hate them for very long, because they are beautiful in all their idiosyncrasies... |
| r_a_trip Sep 16, 2006 7:16 PM EDT |
Welcome to America... I'm really not sure why that's news, or, such a shock to you :). Well, I am a child of the "Old Oppressive Europe" and I thought "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave" should account for something. At least I would have expected to be treated as a lone crackpot, beyond redemption, admitting heresy, but making a good point about the right to fork. |
| jimf Sep 16, 2006 7:28 PM EDT |
> At least I would have expected to be treated as a lone crackpot Lol, you're hardly the only crackpot around here :) |
| dinotrac Sep 16, 2006 7:29 PM EDT |
r_a_trip - No, r_a, your only problem is grandiosity. You make a couple of gratuitous swipes at Christians and get called on it. How that translates into anybody caring even a little about your belief system -- which would be hard because we don't know very much about it in the first place -- is beyond me. News flash: We don't care. You are free to believe whatever you want. You are even free to be as insulting as you please, and to call each and every one of us tiny little minds -- which is what you meant. The thing is, we're equally free to call you on it, and we don't have to weigh in on the relative merits of anybody's beliefs to do so. That's just life in the big city. |
| r_a_trip Sep 16, 2006 8:02 PM EDT |
News flash: We don't care. You are free to believe whatever you want. You are even free to be as insulting as you please, and to call each and every one of us tiny little minds -- which is what you meant. Wrong. What I meant was exactly what I said. God is too vast to be captured into what Christianity tells us what it is. I believe that to be true for every man made religion. I don't have the arrogance to believe that I, as a severely limited being (read human), can grasp what God is, let alone what the motives of such a being are. The problem is not me believing that Christianity in its current form can't capture the nature of all things existing. The problem is Christians so convinced that what they believe is so absolutely, beyond any doubt right, that they feel personally attacked when they encounter a dissenting view. You feel grand because of your belief and anybody daring to say Christianity is limited, is being attacked, because to you someone saying Christianity is limited is saying that you are. I never said Christians are of tiny little minds, that is what your mind translated it into. It was what compelled you to cross swords with me, over a mere statement. I'm always game to poke with daggers and chop with swords. Even if I know the reason to do so is bogus. Call it one of my flaws. The reason you (and others) reached an elevated pressure level, is that you read more into my statement than there really was. Maybe you are a tiny mind, but if that is the case, I'm one-hundred percent certain that it is not because you are a Christian. |
| r_a_trip Sep 16, 2006 8:58 PM EDT |
Sadly enough, the mentality to fight against things that are not a smooth and immediate part of your own world, is what is getting Ubuntu CE slammed right now. Maybe UCE is not all that at the moment, but what might it be if it matures more. Maybe we will never know. Not all people are as crazy and rabid to fight for lost causes like I am. (No, I'm not a Martyr. Before anyone gets the unholy idea to attack me from that angle). Slam people, who think different, enough times and they might just give up. Status quo saved and another thing leaves this earth unfinished. I have absolutely no use for UCE, but I do hope that distro sticks around and offers something to people that other distro's can't. |
| dcparris Sep 16, 2006 9:20 PM EDT |
r_a_trip: As Crackpot-in-Chief, I haven't complained about your OP - or your views. You are certainly welcome to believe that the Christian concept of God is too narrow. I think you'll also find that I called vonskippy on the carpet fairly quick for his definitely disrespectful comment. You've been around long enough, though, to know that posting that comment was bound to open you up to criticism - fair or not. In fact, people ignored the rest of your post because that didn't bother them; they were confronting what did bother them. Dino & r_a_trip: When I asked if y'all were just blowing steam, I was kind of hoping y'all might just agree to disagree or something. It's what you two should have done several posts back. Can you guys do that? |
| helios Sep 17, 2006 3:51 AM EDT |
Slam people, who think different, enough times and they might just give up.... Or they will find another "shunned" individual as a friend and walk into a high school to kill dozens. h |
| dinotrac Sep 17, 2006 4:34 AM EDT |
Rev - I am content to let r_a believe what he wants and to leave him the heck alone. I don't care (and haven't made a single comment on) r_a's concept of God or his belief system. That's between him and his maker/ethereal being/universal force/great empty void/whatever it may be. Matters not one whit to me. My beliefs tell me that I am a fallible human being. I could be wrong about every single thing I hold to be true. But let's be honest here: The words you choose matter. >It can't fit the tiny Christian mold. is a put-down. That line doesn't describe his belief, but what he thinks he understands about mine. That is made abundantly clear by the overall tenor of his posts. My poor rigid little mind has grown weary of the casual ease with which so many people put down my friends who feed the homeless, adopt special needs children, build homes with Habitat for Humanity, run battered women's shelters, operate halfway houses, mentor young people, etc. Given today's mighty bumper sticker minds, I suppose it's possible that many of them don't even realize they're doing it. Sorry I got off-reservation. I will try to be better. |
| SFN Sep 17, 2006 6:52 AM EDT |
Quoting:Well, I am a child of the "Old Oppressive Europe" and I thought "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave" should account for something. Unfortunately, it accounts for nothing and here's why: The "Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave" is inhabited by people. As soon as you introduce people into any equation, things get all screwed up. |
| jdixon Sep 17, 2006 7:56 AM EDT |
Dino, r_a: I've stayed out of this till now, but I think it does deserve one comment. >> It can't fit the tiny Christian mold. > is a put-down. Yep. It's also wrong. R_a is generalizing from the actions of a few Christians to the faith in general. Quite simply, he doesn't know what he's talking about. R_a, before you go slamming an entire religion, you might want to look at what the actual stated core beliefs of that religion are. Christianity beleives that God created the entire universe and everything in it; that he transcends time and space as we know it; and that he is not only largely unknown, but largely unknowable by human minds. I'm sorry, but this doesn't really sound like a tiny mold to me (This ignores the central tenant that he sent some aspect of himself down to earth to live and die as a human for our benefit, which is really outside the scope of your comments). What you're complaining about is how certain individuals and groups apply those beliefs to their day to day lives. Newsflash: We're all human beings. We all make mistakes. We're all stubbon, shortsighted, and downright mean and rude at times. That doesn't mean Christianity is any of those things. It's a belief system, which (as with all other belief systems) should be evaluated on it's own merits; not just the failings of its followers, which are largely common to all belief systems. Now, having covered the slight bit of Religion 101 I'm qualified to speak on, I'll sit down and shut up. |
| r_a_trip Sep 17, 2006 3:30 PM EDT |
Well, Mr. Parris, I can agree not to agree on a lot of stuff. I'm not even thinking the actual things discussed here are a matter of real importance. The thing that I find funny in a sad way, is that I still see a thread dominated by people slamming me for not believing what Christians believe and substituting anything I said (which overall hasn't been much) with their own fears, ideas, expectations and knee-jerk reactions. Well, I'll admit that telling you what I believe (which should be a right) and how that relates to all of organized, existing religions up till now, was mildly intended to ruffle up some feathers. I have an interest in seeing how open minded the people I share this planet with are. I haven't met a lot of people who can ponder over a wide range of concepts freely and still feel comfortable with their own and others ideas. Most telling and saddening thing is that nobody here can live with the idea, that I believe to work within a construct that is more wide ranging than the construct of Christianity and that therefore I personally can't work within the perceived limitations of this religion. No, I get 101 "lessons" about the core tenets of the Christian religion, as if I don't know them and therefore are misled to believe that something else could exist, which must be "corrected". The thing irking me is that it becomes clear that people can only profess to believe what the majority believes too, if they want to be left alone. Anything else will meet hostile resistance. If I really thought being of Christian faith is ridiculous and I was bent on doing harm to Christianity, I would have screamed bloody murder about Ubuntu CE. I didn't. I defended the existence of UCE. That is a tiny thing totally overlooked here, because a lot of people were very busy pounding on the thing that did perceived harm to their own insecure ego's. I do understand the uproar about the Danish caricatures about Muslim extremists a little better now though. I have this gut feeling that a lot of people will still try to "burn me at the stake" for stating that I consider Christianity to be a tiny mold, which it is from my perspective. It shouldn't have mattered, whether I am wrong or not. People should be free to believe whatever they want and be free to express that. Instead of trying to diminish me, someone could have explained why s/he thinks Christianity is a very wide and deep construct (which in its own right it is), but nobody chose to do that. Somehow there needs to be some sort of vindication, essentially over a petty thing. I'll stop expecting that people can follow my motivations and I'll try to focus on simpler day to day things. I wasn't attacking Christianity. I have no need to do so. I was probing the level of tolerance. I don't mind being called on what I believe. What did poke my dark side was the hysterical reaction to something that should be of no importance to any Christian. If you are confident and comfortable about your own beliefs, no general statement (right or wrong) would stir such overblown reactions. Which is true. You yourself, Mr. Parris, have proven this. You didn't go on a crusade and I think that is because you are comfortable and confident in your faith. I will leave this thread for what it is, with this very lengthy post. I do feel a little guilty over that, but I had to state my position. |
| jdixon Sep 17, 2006 6:08 PM EDT |
R_A_Trip: > The thing that I find funny in a sad way, is that I still see a thread dominated by people slamming me for not believing what Christians believe and substituting anything I said (which overall hasn't been much) with their own fears, ideas, expectations and knee-jerk reactions. Dino has been your primary debating partner, and he's done none of those things. He's reacted to having himself and numerous others gratuitiously insulted. > Well, I'll admit that telling you what I believe (which should be a right) and how that relates to all of organized, existing religions up till now, was mildly intended to ruffle up some feathers. Well, you got exactly what you wanted then. Why are you upset? > I have an interest in seeing how open minded the people I share this planet with are. No one here has tried to convert you. No one has tried to have you thrown in jail because of your beliefs. No one here has even called for your removal from the fora. They've merely disagreed with you. What exactly is it you consider to be "open minded"? > I haven't met a lot of people who can ponder over a wide range of concepts freely and still feel comfortable with their own and others ideas. And yet, as far as I can tell, that is exactly the type of people you're dealing with here. > Most telling and saddening thing is that nobody here can live with the idea, that I believe to work within a construct that is more wide ranging than the construct of Christianity and that therefore I personally can't work within the perceived limitations of this religion. Perfect terminology. The "preceived" limitations are exactly what you're dealing with, not the reality. But, believe it or not, I do accept that Christianity isn't for you. > No, I get 101 "lessons" about the core tenets of the Christian religion, as if I don't know them and therefore are misled to believe that something else could exist, which must be "corrected". I assume that was aimed at me. You're posts to this point have given no indication that you understand or even know the core tenants of Christianity. Why should I or anyone else assume you do? You appear to be casually assuming that no one here understands or is capable of understanding your beliefs. > The thing irking me is that it becomes clear that people can only profess to believe what the majority believes too, if they want to be left alone. Anything else will meet hostile resistance. People are people. This has largely been true througout history in all locations. LXer is actually a lot more tolerant and open than most places. Assuming that this is only true because you insulted Christians is a mistake. If you had made equivilant comments about the Prophet in a Muslim environment, you life would now be at risk. > If I really thought being of Christian faith is ridiculous and I was bent on doing harm to Christianity, I would have screamed bloody murder about Ubuntu CE. I didn't. No, you called Christianity tiny, to start with, and continued in that vein later. > I defended the existence of UCE. That is a tiny thing totally overlooked here, because a lot of people were very busy pounding on the thing that did perceived harm to their own insecure ego's. Yes, you did, and it has been largely overlooked in the resulting hubub. For that understanding of the nature of FOSS, and statement of it, you should be commended. I apologize for not doing so in my post. However, if you think your posts have done harm to my "insecure" ego, you don't know me very well. :) > I do understand the uproar about the Danish caricatures about Muslim extremists a little better now though. From that simple statement, I doubt that you do. As noted above, an equivilant post in a Muslim setting puts your life at risk. That's rather different that what's been going on here. > I have this gut feeling that a lot of people will still try to "burn me at the stake" for stating that I consider Christianity to be a tiny mold, which it is from my perspective. I don't see that anyone here has tried to do so. Point out that they think you are mistaken, yes, but no more than that. And, as noted above, from my perspective, your perspective is wrong. > It shouldn't have mattered, whether I am wrong or not. And it point of fact, it doesn't. When it comes to religion, whether we are wrong or not will be demonstrated to us all too soon. > People should be free to believe whatever they want and be free to express that. And no one has denied you that freedom, in spite of it skirting the TOS of LXer. > Instead of trying to diminish me, someone could have explained why s/he thinks Christianity is a very wide and deep construct (which in its own right it is), but nobody chose to do that. Hmm, I thought that was exactly what I tried to do. Apparently you think I failed to do so. Oh well, one can but try. > I wasn't attacking Christianity. I have no need to do so. I was probing the level of tolerance. No, you were attacking Christians in general, whether you acknowledge it or not. > If you are confident and comfortable about your own beliefs, no general statement (right or wrong) would stir such overblown reactions. Your opinions about Christianity aren't important to me, but your statements about the nature of Christianity were demonstrably incorrect. I noted this, and pointed out where they were wrong. I don't consider that an overblown reaction. Anyway, that's more than enough on this subject from me. I'll drop the matter unless you wish to continue it in personal email. I'm sure we're straining DC's patience. |
| dinotrac Sep 17, 2006 7:22 PM EDT |
jdixon - I remain amazed that any free software types ---- remember "free, as in speech" ... can so thoroughly despise the actual practice. Oh well, whatcha gonna do? Live goes on. |
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