Apologies are in order
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| NoDough Aug 31, 2006 4:06 AM EDT |
[righteous-indignation] Linspire has: - Open sourced their distribution (Freespire) - Created an open source HTML editor (Nvu) - Created an open source photo manager (LPhoto) - Created an open source audio manager (LSongs) - Created the Linux Desktop Summit conference. - Supported several open source projects (WINE, KDE, KDE-look, Mozilla, Firefox, Reiser, GAIM, Debian, et. al.) And now they have freed (as in beer and freedom) their click-n-run service. As a longtime defender of Linspire, I think a few of you owe them an apology. Of course, if you decide to take the 'they-are-a-business-so-they-must-be-evil' position then I guess I'll have to label you as one of those people who has made up your mind and won't be bothered by facts (see above.) [/righteous-indignation] |
| jdixon Aug 31, 2006 5:09 AM EDT |
You left out their AOL dialer. :) > I think a few of you owe them an apology. Well, perhaps unfortunately, I don't think they'll get one. I think there have been two major complaints lodged against Linspire over the years. One was that the CNR service charged an annual free to download programs which were freely offered by other distributions, including Linspire's parent distribution, Debian. The second was that they chose to use closed source componets as a fundamental part of their distribution. The recent announcement corrects complaint number one, and is a good thing. Noting that Linspire has done so is giving just due. However, since charging for access to Free software was always wrong, no apology is due, merely acknowldgement that they're now doing the right thing. I've never joined in complaint number two. I think there's a place for closed source components used in conjunction with Linux, though I try to avoid them myself when possible. It isn't always. I have the NVidia drivers, Flash, Sun's Java, various codecs, and Realplayer installed; I've installed the libraries needed to watch DVD's; and I have IE installed under Wine (though that was primarily done as an intellectual exercise, not for use). Installing all of these is difficult and time consuming. If Linspire chooses to provide these type things preinstalled for their customers, that's their choice, and I have no problem with it. However, for those who do object, nothing has changed, so no apology will be forthcoming. So, while Linspire deserves credit for opening the CNR service, I doubt they'll get any apologies. |
| Teron Aug 31, 2006 5:11 AM EDT |
"- Open sourced their distribution (Freespire)" As far as I know, Linspire sources have always been available for download. That's what the 3rd party Freespire project used. It's just that, with freespire, they've opened up to wider community development than with just their Linspire Insider program. |
| NoDough Aug 31, 2006 5:30 AM EDT |
jdixon, I'm referring to those who have mercilessly attacked Linspire in the past (on these forums.) They will, at first, attack the idea that Linspire is attempting to make a profit with a Linux based business. When presented with the facts about Linspire's contributions to the community (in lieu of its own profits) they change tact. They use the CNR service and one or two carefully chosen words from a press release as straw men to justify their attacks. Now one of their straw men is up in flames. dparris, How about a grep article on Linspire? |
| dcparris Aug 31, 2006 5:55 AM EDT |
> However, since charging for access to Free software was always wrong Um, no. That is incorrect. It has *never* been wrong to charge a fee for access. One is allowed to charge a fee for distributing Free Software. Those who attack Linspire on that ground are ignorant. Please do read the GPL FAQ. In fact, the FSF encourages people to charge a fee! The problem is that most distributions just don't do so, and those that do get lambasted for it. It is the fact that Linspire buys so heavily into ESR's "compromise your freedom" mentality that I object to. Actually, it's the other way around, since Carmony was espousing this idea before ESR, and the company has taken this view all along. I think ESR might be using Linspire these days. |
| dinotrac Aug 31, 2006 6:04 AM EDT |
Rev - Thank you for saving me a little typing. Some fanboys have a more twisted view of the GPL than corporate pointy-hairs. The GPL is more reasonable than either camp gives it credit for. It is pro-freedom, not anti-business. |
| SFN Aug 31, 2006 7:11 AM EDT |
They'd really only deserve an apology if they'd done all those things and people continued to complain. The fact is, they did all of those things (minus NVU, perhaps) after people bemoaned the fact that they didn't really seem to have the OSS spirit. As for the business-must-be-evil thing, that's just plain nonsense. There's nothing wrong with making money. However, charging people to access free repositories does step right up to the line, if it doesn't cross it. |
| dinotrac Aug 31, 2006 7:53 AM EDT |
If not apologies, then... How about thanks and congratulations for doing the right thing? Let sleeping dogs lie, today is the first day of the rest of your life, and all that good stuff? |
| jdixon Aug 31, 2006 8:21 AM EDT |
> It has *never* been wrong to charge a fee for access. One is allowed to charge a fee for distributing Free Software. I'm well aware of the GPL provisions on the matter. The CNR fee was far in excess of any reasonable cost, and the original programs were freely available from the Debian repositories. Whether Linspire broke the letter or merely the spirit of the GPL is a matter for lawyers, not me, but one or the other is definitely the case. I didn't say it was illegal, I said that it was *wrong*. |
| jdixon Aug 31, 2006 8:22 AM EDT |
> How about thanks and congratulations for doing the right thing? Definitely called for, yes. |
| dinotrac Aug 31, 2006 8:36 AM EDT |
>I didn't say it was illegal, I said that it was *wrong*. I don't know why. I don't see it as being any different from charging $80 for a boxed distro. As a distributor, I believe they were doing more than merely copying some other source of packages. The CNR fees incorporated a degree of service and support. Again -- NOTHING in the GPL prevents you from doing that. There are some restrictions on what you can charge for source if you distribute binaries. CNR, however, are ready-to-roll binaries. No limits I'm aware of on that. |
| jdixon Aug 31, 2006 8:52 AM EDT |
> I don't know why. They already charge for their distribution. Then on top of that, they charged a yearly fee for access to the CNR service. They got the original binaries and sources from Debian. Debian provides them at no charge. They're charging for them, at a cost which greatly exceeds their bandwith costs. You don't have to agree with me, but I think the point is fairly clear and simple. In any case, since they've now opened the CNR service, it's water under the bridge. |
| NoDough Aug 31, 2006 10:14 AM EDT |
jdixon: >They're charging for them, at a cost which greatly exceeds their bandwith (sic) costs.< You say that (type that?) as if that's the only cost they incur. What about employing a few dozen people? What about setting up a place of business? What about paying programmers to do open-source work? What about contributing financially to open-source projects? What about setting up a conference to advocate desktop Linux? They did all this without actually making a profit for themselves - and you are suggesting that's "wrong." I don't get it. |
| Teron Aug 31, 2006 10:22 AM EDT |
As far as I know, the Linspire folk make various fine-tunings to their packages. And, even before CNR became free as in beer, the freespire repositories were open to apt access. (I know that they haven't been up for long, but still.) |
| jdixon Aug 31, 2006 10:23 AM EDT |
> They did all this without actually making a profit for themselves - and you are suggesting that's "wrong." I'm not suggesting anything. I'm stating that, in my opinion, it was wrong to take the freely given Debian code and then charge for it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. |
| jdixon Aug 31, 2006 10:26 AM EDT |
> As far as I know, the Linspire folk make various fine-tunings to their packages. From what I understand, yes, they did. This was both good for their users and a pain for those that tried to mix Debian and Linspire packages. |
| NoDough Aug 31, 2006 10:48 AM EDT |
>As far as I know, the Linspire folk make various fine-tunings to their packages.< Yes, they do. And from this page http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_license.php ... >Linspire contributes back any and all changes we make to Open Source projects that would help improve open source products for the benefit of all. |
| dcparris Aug 31, 2006 5:23 PM EDT |
I would like to make clear that I don't see a problem with Linspire charging a fee. I can even see a subscription based update service. That makes a lot of sense to me. They then make the money by serving you (keeping you up to date). What I do have a problem with is their inclusion of non-free codecs - their "compromise your freedom" mentality. Yes, I realize that some people want that, even if only because they don't actually know any better. What I find interesting is that Ubuntu seems to be doing a much better job of GNU/Linux "evangelism" than Linspire. |
| jdixon Aug 31, 2006 6:03 PM EDT |
> would like to make clear that I don't see a problem with Linspire charging a fee. I can even see a subscription based update service. > What I do have a problem with is their inclusion of non-free codecs - their "compromise your freedom" mentality. Well, we'll just have to disagree. I don't have a problem with them charging a fee for access to their commercial packages or Linspire specific packages. However, the unmodified or only slightly modified Debian packages should have been provided as a free or very low cost service. Lumping everything together into on rather expensive service wasn't the right way to do things. As to the non-free aspects of their distrbution, that doesn't bother me. The fact that I have no interest in such a system doesn't mean that there aren't those for whom it's a perfect fit, and I have no problem with Linspire servicing that market. |
| SFN Sep 01, 2006 5:05 AM EDT |
Quoting:How about thanks and congratulations for doing the right thing? If somebody does something wrong and you yell at them so they stop doing it, should they be thanked and congratulated? In that situation, if I do either of those things, it's generally with a degree of sarcasm. |
| jdixon Sep 01, 2006 6:25 AM EDT |
> If somebody does something wrong and you yell at them so they stop doing it, should they be thanked and congratulated? Well, it depends on how serious the something wrong is. The things Linspire was doing were more of an annoyance than a hazard. It's not like they were hurting people. So, while I don't think they should be congratulated, a simple thank you might be appropriate. Sort of like thanking your neighbor for turning down his stereo when it was bothering you. |
| SFN Sep 01, 2006 6:57 AM EDT |
Quoting:Sort of like thanking your neighbor for turning down his stereo when it was bothering you. Hmm. Yeah, I never do that. If it's bad enough that I have to complain, I might say, "THANK YOU!" as in "AND DON'T DO IT AGAIN!" I would agree thought that it is that kind of offense. |
| dinotrac Sep 01, 2006 7:14 AM EDT |
jdixon and SFN - There is a difference. You are comparing the case of somebody who was doing NOTHING WRONG -- ie, producing Linspire, with somebody who is doing something clearly wrong. How about a different comparison... As a Christian, I have no right whatsoever to complain if you choose to be Moslem, Buddhist, Hindu, or atheist. I can believe that you are wrong and that you will suffer for your wrong-headedness, but that doesn't matter. In any civil sense, you are free to pursue your belief/non-belief. You break no laws, you don't violate my space (and, by the way, the loud stereo is actually a form of trespassing). If I am upset at you for your beliefs, it is my problem -- not yours. That's between you and your god or empty void. Should you see the light and be saved, however, I would be thoroughly justified in offering you congratulations. The Linspire folks have made a step in the right direction. They were doing nothing wrong. Your upset is your own problem. It is fully appropriate to thank them for climbing on board and to congratulate them for another foot in with the good guys (they already had one foot in with nvu and some other stuff). To do otherwise is just peevish. |
| jdixon Sep 01, 2006 7:15 AM EDT |
SFN: > Yeah, I never do that. I think this falls into the "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" category. |
| SFN Sep 01, 2006 7:58 AM EDT |
Quoting:I think this falls into the "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" category.Well, flies just aren't my bag. People either, for that matter. Quoting:Should you see the light and be saved, however, I would be thoroughly justified in offering you congratulations.Sure but you wouldn't be justified in saying that I should congratulate someone because you believe they have seen the light. |
| dinotrac Sep 01, 2006 8:07 AM EDT |
>Sure but you wouldn't be justified in saying that I should congratulate someone because you believe they have seen the light. Agree completely. And, if you don't believe that Linspire has changed in any significant way or moved toward the light, etc, you would be justified in your position. I may simply have misread you...I got the impression you were unhappy with their past behavior and would withhold congratulations on the basis that they are now where they should have been all along. |
| SFN Sep 01, 2006 8:13 AM EDT |
Quoting:I may simply have misread you...I got the impression you were unhappy with their past behavior and would withhold congratulations on the basis that they are now where they should have been all along. No, that's right. I would do that. I can't get behind congratulating them for doing what they should have done all along after much pressure from others. The issue here has to do with the original intent of the post. The whole "owe them an apology" thing. Even changing "apology" to "thanks" or "congratulations" doesn't fly. They are owed nothing for finally giving in and doing the right thing. |
| dinotrac Sep 01, 2006 8:17 AM EDT |
I agree that nobody owes them an apology. I don't agree with most of the criticism that has been leveled at them, but it was justifiable. (justifiable vs. justified == yes, you make a reasonable and valid argument vs. I agree with your conclusions) Nobody accused them of doing anything they weren't doing. No apologies required. Congratulations on joining the brethren -- welcome to the club, etc, perfectly justified but not required. |
| SFN Sep 01, 2006 8:19 AM EDT |
Quoting:Congratulations on joining the brethren -- welcome to the club, etc, perfectly justified but not required. Motioned and accepted. |
| jdixon Sep 01, 2006 8:32 AM EDT |
> Congratulations on joining the brethren -- welcome to the club, etc, perfectly justified but not required. > Motioned and accepted. Yes, I think we can agree on that. Some people (not me) might wish for more, but I doubt they'll get it. |
| tuxchick2 Sep 01, 2006 9:02 AM EDT |
Apologize? Feh. By their CEO's own misleading statements and behavior they prove they don't get Free Software, and don't want to. Use it all you want- I think they are not good for Free Software, and never will be under the current management. |
| NoDough Sep 01, 2006 9:15 AM EDT |
TC: Thanks for illustrating what I was referring to in my opening post. ;^) |
| jdixon Sep 01, 2006 9:27 AM EDT |
NoDough: Told you so. :) |
| tuxchick2 Sep 01, 2006 10:17 AM EDT |
I forgot to say I think that's a pretty decent review, though I'm still wishing for long-term reviews of distros instead of the same old "here's how it installed and what it comes with." These are useful, but it's even more useful to know how it behaves over a period of time, especially since linux installations these days are dead-easy. Like the early Mandrake Linuxes installed like champions, but then fell apart in a few days. I'll take a somewhat difficult install over something that installs easily, then caves in any day. |
| SFN Sep 01, 2006 10:21 AM EDT |
Quoting:I'm still wishing for long-term reviews of distros instead of the same old "here's how it installed and what it comes with." Great idea for a site after1year.com, after1month.org or whatever. |
| mbaehrlxer Sep 04, 2006 3:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:Created an open source HTML editor (Nvu) linspire has not created nvu. nvu is actually the editor of the old mozilla all-in-one package (now known as seamonkey) so linspire continued the development of the mozilla editor, but unfortunately they didn't put enough work into it yet. nvu is buggy and crashes, but it is the only wysiwyg html editor that i can find which runs on linux and windows, so it is the only thing i can recomend to windows usersasking for my help. greetings, eMBee. |
| jimf Sep 04, 2006 3:44 PM EDT |
> nvu is buggy and crashes Ahh... not here, it's quite solid on Debian, and, it certainly puts out better code than the MS equivelant. |
| jdixon Sep 04, 2006 5:46 PM EDT |
> and, it certainly puts out better code than the MS equivelant. Talk about damning with faint praise. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!