WARNING: Lotus Notes is not free software
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 30, 2006 7:16 PM EDT |
There is nothing news worthy here. It is nothing more than an opportunity to bastardize your freedom-granting instance of GNU/Linux. Hopefully, LXer will wake up and stop pushing this stuff onto its community. |
| grouch Jul 30, 2006 7:27 PM EDT |
There's that "pushing" again. You can't stand to simply deliver the warning; you always have to act like LXer is your evil arch-nemesis. Not all software is Free. Not all news about Linux and GNU and other Free software is strictly about Free software. Blaming LXer for "pushing this stuff" is a silly act. Start your own news portal if you don't like the news LXer presents. |
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 30, 2006 7:32 PM EDT |
As long as LXer.com continues this practice, they will be held accountable. |
| sbergman27 Jul 30, 2006 7:51 PM EDT |
Seriously, Grouch, I would just ignore it. |
| grouch Jul 30, 2006 8:00 PM EDT |
sbergman27: You're probably right. I don't mind the "WARNING"; it's the blame that irritates me. Don is the one who posted the story. Besides irritating, it's pretty amazing to me that anyone who has seen his work would think he "pushes" non-free software. Look at the LXer Features he's written. Look at his book, which he generously provides online. Look at the editorial comments he's made. Look at the comments in discussions that he's made. His work reveals a great deal more concern for people and their freedom than wind0wsr3fund's continual blaming of the messenger for the message. It's probably a good thing our E-i-C doesn't give me nuking power over comments. |
| tuxchick2 Jul 30, 2006 8:32 PM EDT |
grouch, you and don and co. are doing a great job. Don't feed the parasitical troll, just hang out with us fun kids. :) |
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 30, 2006 9:24 PM EDT |
oh no, the free-as-in-freeloading LXer groupie has spoken.... The only "Job" dcparris appears to be doing is diluting the mission of the free software movement by pushing non-free wares via LXer.com. I will not tolerate it. |
| Sander_Marechal Jul 30, 2006 9:51 PM EDT |
wrf, please read the title on the front page. It's "LXer Linux News", not "LXer Free Software news". It also says "The world is talking about GNU/Linux and Free/Open Source Software" not "The world is talking about Free/Open Source Software". |
| dinotrac Jul 31, 2006 1:10 AM EDT |
sander - No need to worry about w3f, who is no friend to free software, no fan of keeping informed, and who could not recognize an honest commitment to spreading the gospel of freedom if Richard Stallman were to kick him in the privates, pull him up off the ground and shout into his ear, "You idiot!! These are the good guys!" |
| SFN Jul 31, 2006 4:25 AM EDT |
wind0wsr3fund, Since you chose to ignore this the last time I asked it, I'll ask it again. Quoting:Do you not see your comments (not just here but in other threads as well) as pretentious? I'm trying to not focus on the content for a moment and just on the form. Let's suppose everyone here agrees that your comments are full of life's greatest truths. Do you not realize how incredibly full of yourself you sound when you post? Fortunately, the free software movement can't be killed. Otherwise you'd be doing a great job of trying to kill it. |
| dcparris Jul 31, 2006 6:19 AM EDT |
wind0wsr3fund:
>The only "Job" dcparris appears to be doing is diluting the mission of the free software movement by pushing non-free wares via LXer.com. I will not tolerate it. By taking a positive approach to the problem, you might have put yourself in a position to help us filter out the junk. Having an extra editor around to help those of us who have a full-time job, school, a wife to care for, kids - you know, a life - would be an immense help. This is not my full-time job; I do it more because I love doing it than anything else. I would have welcomed help. Unfortunately, your insidious attacks on the editorial team, generally, have made that impossible. You are now welcome to cease tolerating me. |
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 31, 2006 7:25 AM EDT |
I'd be happy to take on the role of editor. What's the next step? |
| NoDough Jul 31, 2006 7:35 AM EDT |
>I'd be happy to take on the role of editor. What's the next step? Allow me to revise Don's sentence to more accurately reflect what I believe he really meant. >If you had taken a positive approach to the problem, you might have put yourself in a position to help us filter out the junk. Don, am I correct? |
| tuxchick2 Jul 31, 2006 8:04 AM EDT |
"I'd be happy to take on the role of editor. What's the next step?" Duh, start your own news publication. I still vote that wind0wsr3fund is a Microsoft shill. No one can be this obtuse without getting paid for it. |
| Sander_Marechal Jul 31, 2006 8:36 AM EDT |
Quoting:sander - No need to worry about w3f I'm not worried. I'm just getting annoyed. |
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 31, 2006 8:46 AM EDT |
I am in a perfect position to filter out the junk. Why? Because I am 1 of 2 or 3 people on this site who actually *know* what the junk is. Here's the formula for tuxgroupie and the rest: [ free ] || warn_if_must_publish |
| dinotrac Jul 31, 2006 8:56 AM EDT |
I think W3F may be right about this: After all, he is burdened by neither humility nor a feedback loop. |
| dcparris Jul 31, 2006 9:36 AM EDT |
NoDough:
> Don, am I correct? That's correct WF3: >I'd be happy to take on the role of editor. What's the next step? You apparently missed this statement: "Unfortunately, your insidious attacks on the editorial team, generally, have made that impossible." Additionally, your attitude makes it impossible to take you seriously as an editor. |
| jimf Jul 31, 2006 9:42 AM EDT |
> Here's the formula for tuxgroupie and the rest: That means you could be replace by a formula, or script. So, your services wouldn't be needed anyway. Of course that would be only after numerous of bug fixes... |
| sbergman27 Jul 31, 2006 9:55 AM EDT |
Wind0wsr3fund, Remember what I said about frontal attacks hurting your ability to effectively advocate your cause? This is a perfect example of that. A little finesse and subtlety go a long way. |
| jdixon Jul 31, 2006 11:50 AM EDT |
> I will not tolerate it. Fortunately, you don't run LX'er, so you (in)toleration doesn't matter. Seriously, I have no real objection to your making these posts noting that whaterver software is not free software. That's a legitimate point to be made. It the LX'er bashing for posting the news articles that's irritating. LX'er is not your site. You don't get to say what they post and what they don't. They are gracious enough to let us lowly lifeforms post our comments. They don't even owe us that. Quit looking a gift horse in the mouth and limit yourself to noting when the articles deal with non-free software, and you'll find the entire affair both more pleasant and more productive. |
| dcparris Jul 31, 2006 12:44 PM EDT |
I'll even go this far. Demonstrate some maturity, over a period of time - you know, constructive comments and things like that - and I'll consider opening the door. That's right. I would still consider it. I know some here would consider me absolutely crazy. Still, a changed attitude and approach to problem solving would cause me to change my currently negative view of you. Jdixon and others make a solid point. If you really believe that I am pushing non-free software on everyone, then it really makes little sense to hang around. You would be better off starting your own site, where you have full control over the content. Even if you became an editor here, you would still fall under me. That should give you something to think about. Finally, I actually think your warnings are fine. People may find them irritating, but I think it's good to let people know about things like that. Not everyone can or will pay attention to such things, and having a warning might make them stop and think. Given my experience, it may not, either. Still... We are, in fact, working to provide more news about FOSS and that will still include some things that are not specifically FOSS, but have some connection to FOSS. If Adobe announced that it is porting all its apps to the GNU/Linux platform tomorrow, I would run it, albeit with the warning that their software is non-free. I don't always have time to fully investigate these things. But we are working on it. |
| grouch Jul 31, 2006 12:58 PM EDT |
dcparris: >"I know some here would consider me absolutely crazy." I thought that was already established as fact, with the pink hog photo. (You could have at least hidden those legs to avoid traumatizing innocent eyes). |
| tuxchick2 Jul 31, 2006 1:02 PM EDT |
Don, it might help to keep in mind that reasonableness only works with reasonable people. It doesn't work on Ayatollahs. You probably don't need the pep talk, being a tuff editer and Marine and all that, but I want to reinforce that LXer is on a good track. You're doing a good job, and don't let any pipsqueak vandals persuade you otherwise. Any moron can sit on the sidelines and throw stones at the people who are really doing something constructive. It happens all the time. It takes a special kind of person to dodge the stones and continue to build something worthwhile. So ra ra LXer gang and all that. :) |
| alc Jul 31, 2006 1:07 PM EDT |
>"We are, in fact, working to provide more news about FOSS and that will still include some things that are not specifically FOSS, but have some connection to FOSS. If Adobe announced that it is porting all its apps to the GNU/Linux platform tomorrow, I would run it, albeit with the warning that their software is non-free. I don't always have time to fully investigate these things. But we are working on it." You provide plenty of news about FOSS and do a great job of it.Those of us who read can also investigate on our own to see if a particular piece of software is what we might want to use.Otherwise,you'll have to put a big WARNING! WARNING! in front of every thing you put on this site. |
| Sander_Marechal Jul 31, 2006 1:15 PM EDT |
I think the only articles that would need such warnings are when the author claims something is Free Software when it's in fact not. We all know Lotus Notes isn't free software. I'm still glad it'll run on Linux. That's one less reason to login to the Citrix enviroment at my work. |
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 31, 2006 1:37 PM EDT |
dcparris, "I would run it, albeit with the warning that their software is non-free. I don't always have time to fully investigate these things. But we are working on it." Now that is certainly a step in the right direction. If LXer.com can make this happen, then I really won't be needed as an editor. Over the past few hours, I've noticed that you have gone out of your way to point out each (software related) headline's relationship to freedoms 0-3. Your efforts are appreciated. As for LXer.com not being my site, I couldn't agree more. However, LXer.com is just one site in a milliion that thrives as a result of the larger and more signifcant movement known as free software. As a supporter of that movement, it is my moral obligation to put an end to practices that undermine the goal of spreading freedoms 0-3. In my opinion, (regardless of your motive) the idea of discussing, advocating, including, entertaining, or providing even references to non-free software into GNU/Linux is one such practice. I'll stay tuned and hope for the best... |
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 31, 2006 2:13 PM EDT |
"We all know Lotus Notes isn't free software" That assumption is based on the idea that the reader has a firm understanding of free software itself. Remember, most newcomers have never thought about the issue and are therefore, exactly the kind of users these companies are going after. The 'linux' converts who know nothing (and therefore, couldn't possibly be in a position to agree with) the ideals and goals of the free software movement will not understand why it is wrong to run Photoshop+WINE and/or IBM's proprietary Notes client on their GNU/Linux systems. I can't help but wonder how feasible it would be for LXer to add some kind of visual indicator that can be used when publishing content. For example, in the event that the article involves a piece of software, 1 of 3 categories could be associated like so: [FS] (green) [??] (grey) [FR] (red) When clicked, [FS] would take the reader to a brief explanation of Free Software. The [??] symbol would explain that the licensing terms are unknown at this time. The red [FR] symbol could offer an explanation about both the practical and ethical implications of Freedom Restricting software. Going further, perhaps some logic could be put in place allowing members to change the status of a [??] item once the licensing terms become better understood. This, or something like it, would be a much appreciated addition to LXer.com. |
| Sander_Marechal Jul 31, 2006 2:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:The 'linux' converts who know nothing [...] will not understand why it is wrong to run Photoshop+WINE and/or IBM's proprietary Notes client on their GNU/Linux systems. It's not wrong to run proprietry software on Linux. You might prefer to stick to Free Software only but what other people prefer is their business. Polite education to newbies may work. Drilling out warnings will not. Also, educated people can still choose run proprietry software on Linux. The tag idea for LXer may be a nice addition. Screaming that people are bastardizing their OS will only get them annoyed with you. 80% of the message is how you bring it. Looking over your posts of the last couple of days I think you still have to shave the blunt razor edge of your messages. |
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 31, 2006 3:07 PM EDT |
"It's not wrong to run proprietry software on Linux." Now see.......... that's exactly what I'm talking about. Who told you that? Jack Messman? Eric Raymond? My Start Menu addict co-worker? Of course it's wrong to run freedom-restricting software. The varying degree of the crime comes into play when you consider the level and scope of interaction. If the computer is unplugged and you're the only one using it, the crime is minimal since you're only violating your own ability to use for any purpose, copy, inspect, and improve the software. If this is indeed the case, feel free to violate yourself but please do the rest of us freedom loving folk a favor and don't connect to our network, don't attempt to share files with us, and don't try to sell us on obtaining a copy of the wares you're running so we can interact with your computer. By the way, running proprietary software on ANY OS is equally as wrong as running it on GNU/Linux. "Screaming that people are bastardizing their OS will only get them annoyed with you" Funny how one's refusal to dismiss and avoid ethical issues is viewed as "screaming". Nobody is screaming here. I'm only discussing things you'd rather avoid due to your own shortcomings. How people react is not up to me. My social obligation starts and ends with providing truth. If you don't like that truth because it's not dressed up with cutsie smiley faces and LOLs, that's your problem...... certainly not mine. |
| Sander_Marechal Jul 31, 2006 3:14 PM EDT |
I rest my case :-) |
| dcparris Jul 31, 2006 3:31 PM EDT |
Tuxchick
>Don, it might help to keep in mind that reasonableness only works with reasonable people. It doesn't work on Ayatollahs. You're right. I'm just trying to reinforce the message of others here that constructive criticism is much more effective than the negative criticism I've seen for some time now. As for the cheering section, I really appreciate it. Other than March, our stats never reached the level we achieved when you were here. Well, we did that yesterday. :-) >Over the past few hours, I've noticed that you have gone out of your way to point out each (software related) headline's relationship to freedoms 0-3. Your efforts are appreciated. I still can only do so much. I cannot guarantee that will always happen. We have also been reducing the number of articles pertaining to non-free software. You may not have noticed that, but under previous management, we basically posted a lot more of what came through. It is still difficult to keep up our pace while restricting _everything_ to just FOSS. So be patient. |
| tuxchick2 Jul 31, 2006 3:59 PM EDT |
Get a grip. Every story doesn't need to be labeled. What the Ayatollah is incapable of understanding is that LXer's readership is comprised of competent, thinking adults who don't need help understanding news stories. Anyone who does want clarification can find it in the discussions. Clubbing people over the head is a guaranteed turn-off. Don, congratulations on good stats! LXer will continue to grow and prosper as long as sane persons like you are running the show. |
| dcparris Jul 31, 2006 4:25 PM EDT |
> If you don't like that truth because it's not dressed up with cutsie smiley faces and LOLs, that's your problem...... certainly not mine. Congratulations. You just made sander's point for him. You must have missed that line in Mary Poppins - "Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down...". Iow, it goes down a lot smoother than your acidic approach. It's like you don't understand that several of us are trying to help you become a more effective advocate. We are trying to help you succeed at advocacy, but you keep sniping at us. And I am on the official record as a freedom lover: Scroll Down to May 13, 2005 |
| dcparris Jul 31, 2006 4:27 PM EDT |
Thanks TC! We're trying. ;-) And I will try to maintain my sanity. |
| jimf Jul 31, 2006 5:06 PM EDT |
> Don, congratulations on good stats! LXer will continue to grow and prosper as long as sane persons like you are running the show. I'll second that :) Don't stress to much over w3f's 'severe' learning disability. The lesson is just too difficult for some. |
| jdixon Jul 31, 2006 6:29 PM EDT |
gouch: > I thought that was already established as fact, with the pink hog photo. As if his taking you on wasn't proof enough. :) wind0wsr3fund: > I'll stay tuned and hope for the best... If you really expect LX'er not to cover news about non-free software being released for Linux, you'll be disappointed. To note that it's not free software is reasonable, not to cover it at all isn't. >> "It's not wrong to run proprietry software on Linux." > Now see.......... that's exactly what I'm talking about. Who told you that? Well, I believe I figured it out all by myself. It is my system after all. That sort of gives me both the right and the responsibility to determine what runs on it. I guess it's always possible that I've been brainwashed by the orbital mind control lasers from their secret base in Redmond, but that doesn't really seem too likely. Of course, if I had been brainwashed that's what I would say, isn't it? Anyway, repeating what I've tried to say earlier: I have no problem with you noting that such and such software isn't free software. That's a useful service. Please, just try to tone down the criticism of LX'er for carrying what they consider to be news. Not everyone agrees with you, and LX'er must reach a diverse audience to prosper, so by definition they're going to carry some things you don't like. |
| dcparris Jul 31, 2006 6:41 PM EDT |
Grouch:
> I thought that was already established as fact, with the pink hog photo. (You could have at least hidden those legs to avoid traumatizing innocent eyes). Grouch! You're jealous! I had no idea. ;-) |
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 31, 2006 8:33 PM EDT |
dcparris, "You must have missed that line in Mary Poppins - "Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down..." Those who value freedom know the sweet taste well enough to forgo the sugarcoating you speak of. I refuse to lower myself to "selling" the value of freedom. That's how we got messed up with all this open source stuff to begin with. I prefer to stay clear and focused in an effort to avoid confusion. That said, thanks again for your efforts to "tag" the software related articles. I appreciate it very much and hope others will also. I understand your concerns about time limitations and will extend an open invitation to help in this regard if you find yourself in need. All the best.... |
| dcparris Jul 31, 2006 10:34 PM EDT |
> Those who value freedom know the sweet taste well enough to forgo the sugarcoating you speak of. I refuse to lower myself to "selling" the value of freedom. That's how we got messed up with all this open source stuff to begin with. I prefer to stay clear and focused in an effort to avoid confusion. I didn't say, "use the term 'open source'." I was referring to the need to use tact. Let me try a different analogy. When I was in the service, as a young Private First Class, someone suggested I get one of the guys to help me carry out the garbage. In what I thought was 'true Marine Corps fashion', I shouted out, "all right, one of you !@#holes give me a hand here!" Yes, I actually said that. The guys then proceeded to explain in polite terms that the only reason they didn't just kick my '!@#hole' right off the ship was because they knew I really had not had time to learn 'real' leadership. Miraculously, they gave me the opportunity to ask politely for help. In another case, where I had done something wrong, I went before the Gunnery Sergeant (most powerful rank in the Corps) to get my tail chewed out. I fully expected the boot camp-styled rage. Instead, he asked if I knew what I had done wrong and whether I would repeat that mistake. In other words, he chose tact to make his point. So maybe this will sink in with you, or maybe it won't. Just know this. Your assistance will not be welcomed until I see a demonstrable - and prolonged - ability to exercise tact. |
| number6x Aug 01, 2006 4:49 AM EDT |
The 'news' in these announcements of proprietary vendors selling their products for deployment on Linux is found by reading between the lines. The next time someone tells you that Linux has no market share, just ask them why all these companies are porting their products for sale on Linux? These commercial vendors have conducted market studies and concluded that Linux is a viable platform with enough growth, that they want to be there selling to the corporate accounts they believe are using and will continue to use Linux. The story does not say these words, but the product would not be for sale on Linux, if Linux did not have market share. Therefore Linux does have market share. W3F may not want to buy these products, but pointy haired bosses in C-Level jobs will. With GNU/Linux both W3F and the PHB's can have their cake and eat it too. (W3F and the PHB's - sounds like a good name for a garage band) |
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