A realistic evaluation
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| jimf Jul 07, 2006 2:38 PM EDT |
Describes the situation with a minimum of hype. Not an easy task. |
| devnet Jul 10, 2006 5:56 AM EDT |
I think madduck took some liberty with speculation, especially on the part of debian developers being angry or upset at being passed up by canonical...or even jealous. Other than that, it's pretty on target. |
| devnet Jul 10, 2006 6:19 AM EDT |
Jimf, I've done some more reading on this (mainly comments and mailing list traffic)...and I've found that many Ubuntu users are just dismissing these items as "jealously" which is an easy cop out for them to use. I could dismiss all points of view contrary to mine as mindless and not give them the time of day...but in the end I wouldn't benefit from knowing whether or not I was truly correct. A smart man named Martin Luther King said once Quoting:The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.I believe we could apply the same thought here by personifying a distro as man in this case. Instead of dismissing things as fits of jealously and resentment which is an action that anyone not wanting to bridge the gap would do, we should put all past problems aside and work toward a common goal by exploiting, not the shortfalls of others, but the strengths of others that, combined with our own, would propel the distro toward further greatness. |
| jimf Jul 10, 2006 6:32 AM EDT |
> especially on the part of debian developers being angry or upset at being passed up by canonical Yes, I agree with you devnet. I think it may be more about the direct poaching of Debian Developers. Some perceive Debian to be undermanned as it is. |
| SFN Jul 10, 2006 6:42 AM EDT |
Quoting:I think madduck took some liberty with speculation, especially on the part of debian developers being angry or upset at being passed up by canonical...or even jealous. That does appear to be the case and I hope it really is just him taking liberties. The whole tone appears to be that Debian devs don't feel they're being respected enough. Is this really what the problem is? Toward the end we find this: Quoting:There's very little Ubuntu can do about the jealousy other than acknowledge it, but it would be an important start. In addition, I hope to see all of the following take place rather sooner than later: followed by some some bullet points. The first bullet point is dead on. It's been clear almost from the beginning that the patches being provided to Debian aren't up to snuff. From there though, (and even within that bullet point) it sounds like the whiny band girlfriend bitching the bassist out because he pays more attention to his bandmates than her. |
| jimf Jul 10, 2006 7:04 AM EDT |
Quoting:From there though, (and even within that bullet point) it sounds like the whiny band girlfriend bitching the bassist out because he pays more attention to his bandmates than her. rofl, that sure sounds like a typical Ubuntuite kiss off. I'm not even going to get into the Shuttlesworth / Canonical debate, but let's just say that few Debian users think he is ultimately up to more than increasing his bottom line. I'm afraid that it's up to Shuttlesworth's crew to prove otherwise. |
| SFN Jul 10, 2006 7:14 AM EDT |
Quoting:that sure sounds like a typical Ubuntuite kiss off I'm not saying that's the problem. I'm saying that the article makes it sound like that's the problem. |
| jimf Jul 10, 2006 7:24 AM EDT |
> I'm saying that the article makes it sound like that's the problem. Well, I didn't say that the article had it down perfectly. Still, he's done a better job than anyone else in describing the 'overall' situation. There are some serious issues here. Personally, I think it's gonna take more than a 'kiss and make up' approach to sort this thing out. |
| SFN Jul 10, 2006 7:29 AM EDT |
Quoting:Personally, I think it's gonna take more than a 'kiss and make up' approach to sort this thing out. Absolutely. If that's all it were to take then no real issue exists. |
| sbergman27 Jul 10, 2006 1:19 PM EDT |
For my 2 cents, I'm just going to cut and paste what I had to say about it over on osnews.com: ------------ From what I have seen, the root of the "problem" is that in all these years there has never been a strong Debian based distibution. There have been many Debian based distros, but they have always been distinctly less influential than Debian, often struggling financially. The Debian dev's got arrogant. The Debian users got arrogant and set in their ways. Then along comes a strong Debian based distro that does a lot of things better than Debian, is not struggling financially, and passed up Debian's user base almost immediately. I'm more of a RedHat centric guy. But I have tried Debian several times over the years and been quite unimpressed. I've been using Ubuntu Dapper on my desktop and laptop for the last 2-3 weeks, and I just might not go back to my old distro, for my desktop/laptop, at least. It's been that good. (Ubuntu Server I can't comment on.) I've read quite a few things from Debian users and devs that sound suspiciously like someone feeling threatened. The way I look at it, though, it's like the service business: "Take care of your customers. If you don't, someone else will." Competition, meet Debian. Debian, meet competition. ------------- Note that since the time I wrote the above, I have begun evaluating the current Debian Testing on a machine that dual boots Debian and Ubuntu. I am liking Debian more than I have in any previous evaluation. But Ubuntu is still getting a few things right that Debian is getting wrong. Currently, Debian won't suspend and won't write to CD-R. |
| jimf Jul 10, 2006 2:23 PM EDT |
Quoting:Then along comes a strong Debian based distro that does a lot of things better than Debian, is not struggling financially, and passed up Debian's user base almost immediately. Maybe the Debian Developers did get more than a bit haughty, and the Ubuntu issue along with criticism of the delayed release of stable has apparently forced Debian back on track, but, I don't see Ubuntu as any more than a small part of that process... It would have happened anyway. Ubuntu claims to be a hands off, new user Distro. In actuality it's pretty average. Ubuntu's main 'contribution' to the Debian community seems to have been the massive advertising campaign which has had the effect of adding a huge noob cult following. I question that is in any meaningful way a 'strong' Debian based Distro, or even, whether it's good for Linux. In the mean time, Canonical's made all sorts of noise about how they 'would' contribute back to Debian... That really hasn't happened. Turns out that Ubuntu is having problems just keeping their own house in order. Personally, the only parts of this that really bug me are the Ubuntu 'owns' the world advertising rhetoric (not true, and I'm tired of hearing it). The second being the Shuttlesworth / Canonical debate. Let's just say that few Debian users think he is ultimately up to more than increasing his bottom line. Quoting: Debian won't suspend and won't write to CD-R. What ver xorg?... You really should bring this over to IRC, and we'll resolve it :). |
| sbergman27 Jul 10, 2006 2:45 PM EDT |
Thanks Jim, I'm sure I can get both problems resolved. (Oddly enough, if I "echo -n mem > /sys/power/state") it goes into suspend mode but the screen is black upon resume. This, I believe, is expected when you suspend that way. When I set gnome-power-manager to suspend when the lid is closed, it just turns off the screen. So the tricky part works. It's a desktop config issue. The important thing is that Ubuntu just got these things right. The latest Debian didn't. That may not seem like such a big deal to you and me. But it's a *huge* difference to new users. Since I've been evaluating Ubuntu over the last 3 weeks or so, I have found it to be far more than just "average". Debian testing, so far, is seeming more along the lines of Fedora. Edit: I should add that it is *very* early in my evaluation of Debian. |
| jimf Jul 10, 2006 4:02 PM EDT |
Well Steve, ya gotta rember that Debian doesn't tout being for noobs :). |
| sbergman27 Jul 10, 2006 4:31 PM EDT |
That applies to not having wizards, etc. Debian touts stability and getting everything right, unlike all those other distros that just slop stuff out. The suspend and CD-R are broken. Forgive me, but for years I've been hearing how Debian has higher quality standards than anyone else and that Debian Testing is more stable than other distro's releases. Do a search on google for "use debian testing" (with the quotes) and you will see this. So I'm holding Debian testing to that standard. Sure, I can fix the problems. They are the same kinds of problems that I'm used to fixing in Fedora and other distros. I don't mean to be rude. I appreciate your kind assistance. |
| jimf Jul 10, 2006 5:07 PM EDT |
Forgive me, but for years I've been hearing how Debian has higher quality standards than anyone else and that Debian Testing is more stable than other distro's releases. Do a search on google for "use debian testing" (with the quotes) and you will see this. I don't believe that 'Debian' has ever said that, although that's what many users believe. Debian only touts stable as being certified. Truthfully, testing can be anything from rock solid to totally unusable... depending on the phases of the moon. It's always a good idea to ask other users, before beginning an install, what's the best way to proceed. It's ironic to think that the long development time between woody and sarge gave testing that extra stability which allowed many Debian derivative Distros to develop. Now, the increased activity resulting from a yearly release schedule makes grabbing that snapshot for derivative development a lot more difficult. |
| sbergman27 Jul 10, 2006 5:30 PM EDT |
You are right, of course. 'Debian' has never said that. As a long time user of non-debian based distros, there are a couple of little irks that I've developed over the years: 1. Some Debian users still seem to think that Debian is the only distro with a package manager. (Search for "debian rpm hell" without the quotes and filter on the year 2006.) Apt-get is fantastic. And at one time Debian was the only distro that had good package management. But that was *years* ago. Yum/Urpmi/Yast/etc users get tired of smug comments like "I use Debian cause because I hate that RPM hell". 2. What I call the Debian "Shell Game". It works like this. C is a Debian critic. D is the Debian community. ===================== Vignette 1 (Somewhere on the internet): D: Debian is the most rock solid distro out there. C: But the packages are ancient. D: Just use Debian Testing. It's rock solid. It's better than what other distros call releases. ===================== ===================== Vignette 2 (Somewhere else on the internet): C: I'm running Debian Testing and it has this, this, and this problem. D: Well, Doh! What do you expect! It's called "Testing". You should have used Debian Stable. ===================== Seriously, though. I understand that users talk up their distros. It's just that Debian users seem a little more smug than most. Maybe I just notice them more. ;-) |
| jimf Jul 10, 2006 6:07 PM EDT |
I'm aware that there are rpm package managers, but, the Debian one still does seem to work better than the others... Or maybe I'm just more used to it's idiosyncrasies... I find running Debian with a mixed repo (testing/unstable/experimental) can result in a rock solid build, but it requires experience and a little black magic. Kind of like building your own derivative Distro, although easier cause you only have to do it for one hardware set. Certainly not everyone's cup of tea. I still think there is an elitist attitude with Debian... Some of it is deserved. The typical user certainly isn't a noob... I'm just glad that the old guard nastiness that once was the norm is finally going away. No excuse or reason for that. |
| sbergman27 Jul 10, 2006 6:32 PM EDT |
So far, I like apt. It is faster than yum. And I think it uses less memory. Then again, so does OO.o ;-) The wealth of packages is quite good. Not head and shoulders above RHEL + the Dag repository. But the number of packages is greater. When a package is not available in an apt repo, it's more likely that the package on website X is going to be an rpm than a deb. I have run into that with one package (I believe it was nomachine's NX client) and tried to use alien. But then I ran into deb hell because of the packages NX client needs. :-P apt/dpkg is currently at a disadvantage for me, because I know yum and rpm better. 'rpm -qa | grep -i openssh' will show me a list of all the installed packages that contain the string openssh in the name. 'yum --list | grep lighttpd' will show me all the available and installed packages that match that pattern. I'd have to look up how to do it under apt/dpkg. In fact, I think I have and it didn't seem quite so straight forward. But, of course, these are just the normal things that one expects to have to deal with when switching distros. And the differences between RHEL and Debian are greater than the average. All in all, though. Debian is doing well on the laptop. I had really wanted to put it on the desktop box since laptops are more problematic, but then discovered that my nifty difty new Gigabyte K8NSC-939 motherboard won't boot from CD! |
| tuxchick2 Jul 10, 2006 9:09 PM EDT |
Here's a Debian finding-packages cheat sheet I posted on a mailing list. Might be useful to you: Online Debian package-finding tools: View package lists, by category: http://www.us.debian.org/distrib/packages#view Searchable online database to find packages: http://www.us.debian.org/distrib/packages#search_packages Searchable online database to find files inside packages: http://www.us.debian.org/distrib/packages#search_contents When you're looking at a particular package there is always a link to see a list of files in the package. This doesn't always work; Debian's package database tends to break every so often. So here are some useful command-line tools. Get information about packages not installed on your system with apt-file- Synchronize local file list with the server: apt-file update Find files containing [name], which can be part of the filename, it doesn't have to be exact, and the packages they belong to: apt-file search [name] Show the package name only, not filenames: apt-file search -l [name] List files in a package: apt-file list [package name] Query packages on your system with dpkg- What package does this file belong to? dpkg -S [filename] [filename] can be part of the filename List files in an installed package: dpkg -L [package name] must be exact package name Find the exact package name: dpkg -l | grep [name] this can be a partial package name Read the package description: dpkg -p [package name] List all installed packages: dpkg -l | less Query package repositories- Search for a package to install; partial names are OK: apt-cache search [name] |
| sbergman27 Jul 10, 2006 9:41 PM EDT |
Thanks, TC. Yes, that is helpful. apt-file was not installed by default and has functionality I was wanting. dpkg -S is handy one that I missed on the man page: dpkg -S | --search filename-search-pattern ... Search for a filename from installed packages. I guess I was looking for "Tell me what package this file belongs to". |
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