scroo ubunut
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick2 Jul 01, 2006 7:44 AM EDT |
Thanks devnet, it's about time someone dared to diss the nekked emperor Ubuntu. I've had nothing but problems with it. I am blowing K/Ubuntu off all my systems. The latest Dapper upgrade- just an ordinary, routine upgrade, like wise users do to get security updates and keep their systems current- disappeared my SATA and DVD drives. Booting to older kernels puts it into Recovery mode, with no networking or DVD. Adding insult to injury, the fatly-funded peace luv n the beatles devs are just as whiny and unresponsive to bug reports as any other devs. Take a look in Launchpad, it is crammed full of ancient, un-triaged bug reports. Very few are accepted, even fewer are fixed or kicked upstream. Fie on Ubuntu. When they release a stable, usable edition I might give it another try. Or not. It's back to Real Debian for me. |
| sbergman27 Jul 01, 2006 8:19 AM EDT |
I'm from a more RedHat background. But I do happen to be using Dapper now on my desktop and laptop. And I've been quite impressed. (The desktop will likely go back to CentOS; I prefer to use
what my customers are using.) I had a bit of a problem with my laptop's wireless chipset. But the Ubuntu forums, which I feared would be full of clueless Linux newbies, was remarkably helpful. It works now. Suspend just worked. Hibernate worked. All the power management worked. In fact, everything pretty much just worked on the new laptop that was, essentially, an impulse buy. (I did little research before buying it.) Why do so many Debian users feel threatened by Ubuntu? (And yes, it shows.) Ubuntu is a Debian strength. As a RedHat-centric guy, I've tried various versions of Debian, and been unimpressed. But Ubuntu is a distro, the *only* Debian based distro, that I have tried that I really like. Debian+Ubuntu is stronger than Debian alone. |
| r_a_trip Jul 01, 2006 9:09 AM EDT |
I don't get the "I hate Ubuntu" vibe on LXer.com either.
Ubuntu has been one peachy string of apt-get update && dist-upgrade for me and my mom so far. Yeah, I put my mom on it too and she loves it. When I gave her the the opportunity to get used to Windows as well after Ubuntu, she told me she didn't like Windows that much after trying it out. |
| dinotrac Jul 01, 2006 9:19 AM EDT |
Hmmm... The over-riding truth of Linux distributions seems to be at work here: If it supports your hardware and the stuff you want works, it's great. Otherwise, it's not. Depending on your hardware and which packages you use, a distro is great or stinks. |
| sbergman27 Jul 01, 2006 9:37 AM EDT |
Dean, Yep. I have not tried any other distros on the laptop. I'm too delighted that the thing just works with Dapper. I installed a Dapper partition out of curiosity on my desktop. Then I saw an ad at CompUSA and bought a cheap laptop since I need something that talks TCP/IP to configure routers at various sites. On the way home, I was uncertain how things would turn out. Dapper is the distro that people seem to be having good luck with on laptops. And it worked. One thing you are leaving out though, Dean, is the importance of what we are *used to*. One of the things that impresses me about Ubuntu is that I am not *used to* the Debian world. But I still like Ubuntu. This is notable. I'l reiterate, though. This is a Debian strength. BTW, hate to say it, but I don't like your ratty old SUSE. Just kidding. ;-) -Steve |
| devnet Jul 01, 2006 9:52 AM EDT |
I just found that the installer was broken. It really killed me on that one. I use XFS because I can...with UPS and tons of backups, I like the performance boost I get....especially when benchmarking my server or doing intrusion testing. When that crashed, I was immediately put off. It is easy to fix that, just remove XFS as an option and state you'll support it next version...but if you include it and you're trying to appeal to 'stability' and 'long term support' you should make sure it works before you ship it. Then the time setting screen snafu...good lord. It took me a second to figure it out. My buddy was immediately turned off by the time snafu. He thought this would confuse new users quite a bit (he's a help desk manager). He thought they should move it to take place upon first boot. I agree. Anyways, it is silly how many 'hooray Ubuntu' stories we see...but that's not the real reason I wrote the article. I did it because I wanted new users to be aware that Ubuntu isn't the Golden Child that everyone tries to portray it as...it' ISN'T LINUX...there's more to it than that....and it takes away some of the choice that you have when you use it (most distros do this...but I have no mercy for one that removes gcc). devnet |
| sbergman27 Jul 01, 2006 10:38 AM EDT |
Do you have solid evidence that XFS gives you a performance boost? I've not found it to have such effect on desktop systems. It appears to do well on massive RAID arrays, though, performance-wise at least. If XFS is not actually supported by the installer, it should be removed from the custom partitioning options, obviously. Here is a command that might help you: $ sudo apt-get install gcc After scaling that insurmountable obstacle, the user's choice will have been restored. If they have problems scaling that obstacle, I'm not sure that compiling from source is going to help them that much. But if they have problems with it, the same can be accomplished through the gui. |
| jimf Jul 01, 2006 11:12 AM EDT |
> Debian+Ubuntu is stronger than Debian alone. Much as I try to believe that, I'm not entirely convinced sbergman. > "I hate Ubuntu" vibe I certainly don't 'hate' Ubuntu, but I don't entirely trust them (mainly because of the Canonical connection) either. |
| richo123 Jul 01, 2006 1:42 PM EDT |
I use Dapper on a laptop and a desktop and had a few problems which were all solved by the first major update after release. The great thing about linux is the choice and the huge community: If Shuttleworth becomes a dick or the developers don't fix bugs dilligently enough I will switch to Debian also. I think a lot of people have a problem with the disconnect that a multi-millionaire and a (huge) community based distro (Debian) provide. It just doesn't feel right to some. Personally I am more pragmatic than that. Going forward I really think Ubuntu needs to take QA a lot more seriously. There was enough sloppyness in LTS to give me pause. The devs need to get on top of their bugzilla (launchpad) which has far too many bugs and not enough bugfixers. This is partially a result of success since it bespeaks a very big community but it also seems to bespeak a degree of lack of organization. |
| grouch Jul 01, 2006 2:15 PM EDT |
rico123: >"I think a lot of people have a problem with the disconnect that a multi-millionaire and a (huge) community based distro (Debian) provide. It just doesn't feel right to some." I didn't get that feeling from reading the opinions from tuxchick2 and devnet. Their complaints appear to be nuts-and-bolts only, no philosophy or politics involved. It could be tied to dinotrac's observation about hardware or it could simply be that Ubuntu violated the 'least surprise' principle. Devnet's complaint about XFS and the installer seems to fit that one. |
| richo123 Jul 01, 2006 2:46 PM EDT |
grouch: I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone in particular here based on their posts. I actually have that feeling myself sometimes and I have seen it expressed in a number of other places often. And I agree with a lot tuxchick2 has had to say on this issue (hence my last paragraph). My post was trying as honestly as possible to figure out the pros and cons of the distro. Must go back to Waco compound. Over and out. |
| sbergman27 Jul 01, 2006 2:56 PM EDT |
Grouch said: "Their complaints appear to be nuts-and-bolts only, no philosophy or politics involved." Tuxchick2 said: "the fatly-funded peace luv n the beatles devs are just as whiny and unresponsive to bug reports as any other devs." Nope. No philisophy or politics involved here. |
| tuxchick2 Jul 02, 2006 7:34 PM EDT |
sbergman27, I think dev attitudes are part and parcel of nuts-and-bolts. FOSS users are encouraged to file bug reports, but why bother if they're going to be ignored or crabbed at? What does it say about a distribution's attitude towards quality control when bug reports are not handled? I don't have any especial gripe with Ubuntu, I think I complain impartially about everything :) I'm happy that lots of folks have not had major hassles with Ubuntu like I have- my experiences differ from theirs, and I feel like an antidote to all the excessive don't-worry-be-happy-hype is a good thing. It's a nice distro, but it still has a lot of wrinkles to iron out. |
| richo123 Jul 03, 2006 6:22 AM EDT |
Tuxchick, I have reported around 30 bugs on launchpad over the past 18 months and have had all of them attended to EVENTUALLY and resolved. I have also experienced smart arse comments by some developers (including the lead developer) which were not appreciated particularly given the "Code of Conduct". Have you seen how many bugs they have there? 55,000 at last count. There are also a lot of bugreports which are "noise" because they are by newbies who are not providing enough relevant information. The signal to noise ratio there isn't good and it looks like some of the developers are getting a bit burnt out. Given this and the issues associated with LTS (particularly the printing which was a dog's breakfast) they need to sort out their QA system quickly. This is particularly relevant given that the next release is "edgy" and on a very tight schedule. Strikes me that if you combine 15 highly talented and well paid Debian developers with a huge newbie rich userbase you are going to have issues. I hope the communication channels within the community are up to the task here. |
| SFN Jul 03, 2006 6:36 AM EDT |
While the complaints do address the nuts-and-bolts (eventhough these nuts-and-bolts things don't happen to everyone), I think the key to the notion that the complaints are political/philosophical in nature stems from devnet's and others' repeated attacks on Ubuntu every time somebody says something good about it as well as from phrases like "fatly-funded peace luv n the beatles devs" and "all the excessive don't-worry-be-happy-hype". Look at it this way (and this is just an example - this is not about pushing any particular political view): If someone has a problem with the way George Bush is handling the Iraq thing, they're more likely to be attacked for their views if they say "that right wing moron Bush has gotten us into a big ol' Republico-violence fest in Iraq" than if they say "the President has made some very poor decisions regarding Iraq placing us in a dangerous position there". |
| tuxchick2 Jul 03, 2006 1:38 PM EDT |
oh, so now it's the colorful self-expression that's the problem, not the points raised. OK, I hereby issue a challenge: Dare to be dull! Cure insomnia! Haw. As if. :) |
| jimf Jul 03, 2006 2:10 PM EDT |
Lol, SFN is no fun atall... |
| jdixon Jul 03, 2006 4:26 PM EDT |
> If someone has a problem with the way George Bush is handling the Iraq thing, they're more likely to be attacked for their views if they say "that right wing moron Bush has gotten us into a big ol' Republico-violence fest in Iraq" than if they say "the President has made some very poor decisions regarding Iraq placing us in a dangerous position there". Actually, that's probably a bad example. If you say the former, you can be dismissed as a left wing kook and all the right wing pundits will do is make fun of you. If you say the latter, you're asking for your statement to be taken seriously. It's only when the right wing attack squads take you seriously that they attack full force. This is, of course, only personal opinion formed from years of listening off and on to Rush and co. |
| grouch Jul 03, 2006 6:32 PM EDT |
richo123: >"Have you seen how many bugs they have there? 55,000 at last count. There are also a lot of bugreports which are "noise" because they are by newbies who are not providing enough relevant information. The signal to noise ratio there isn't good and it looks like some of the developers are getting a bit burnt out." It sounds like they need someone to filter some of that noise before it gets to the developers. Get some thick-skinned, head-nurse type who can recognize the difference between a splinter and a skull fracture to do triage. |
| richo123 Jul 03, 2006 6:55 PM EDT |
grouch, Yup too many damned hippies ;-) (I was too young to be one) http://lwn.net/Articles/183091/ |
| helios Jul 03, 2006 7:19 PM EDT |
pechuly oil, birkenstocks and orange barrel...toss in an aromatic whiff of lilac incense and skunk, two quick stirs with a Robin Trower riff, then cross the Bridge of Sighs onto the corner of Haight/Ashbury... for the three of you who smiled at this... Well it's one, two three, what are we fightin' for. Don't ask me I don't give a damn, next stop is..... We never escape it do we? h |
| jimf Jul 03, 2006 8:04 PM EDT |
> Yup too many damned hippies ;-) Please, even hippies had more couth... These are cult members. |
| grouch Jul 03, 2006 9:54 PM EDT |
...Five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates,
There ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! We're all gonna die. Thanks for the reminder, helios. Sometimes, it takes a joke, a jingle, somebody willing to stand (or, in Rosa Parks' case, not willing to stand) to get a whole lot of people looking at something from a different perspective. Idealists, nutcases and just plain ornery people can change the world. Wouldn't it be a duller place without Don Quixote? |
| richo123 Jul 04, 2006 4:46 AM EDT |
I belonged to the punk tribe. |
| salparadise Jul 04, 2006 6:55 AM EDT |
At least the hippies had a vision of a better world, which is more than can be said for a lot of the other "youth movements". Putting flowers down the barrels of guns, especially guns pointed at you, is brave and visionary.
I've spent most of my adult life with hair halfway down my back, so I guess that makes me a hippy, though strictly speaking I'm too young (born in '64). Yes, the world would be terribly dull without Don Quixote, not to mention Wavy Gravy. |
| devnet Jul 04, 2006 10:23 AM EDT |
Quoting:political/philosophical in nature stems from devnet's and others' repeated attacks on Ubuntu Repeated attacks? Since when did pointing out shortcomings become an attack? Plus, I've been "attacking" as you say (bringing to light as I say) issues with Ubuntu as they might be seen from a new user perspective or for the new user. My blog is one of the first stops when people do a search for "linux blog" [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=linux blog&btnG=Google Search]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=linux blog&btnG=Google ...[/url] So I tend to think that I have the ear of the new linux user who may want to see what other linux users blog about. This is why I always make sure that when I'm writing an article about Ubuntu, I try to address things that the new user would want to know. Many of them just hear "yay Ubuntu" from every nook of the information superhighway (thanks for inventing it Al!) that they tend to think it will be everything to everyone. I like to bring it down a notch by trying to bring into light some of the things that new users may want to think about before trying it. In fact, if you do a quick search, you'll see all of my Ubuntu posts (except for my @ work category) address Ubuntu in this way: [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site:linux-blog.org ubuntu&btnG=Google Search]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site:linux-blog.org ubu...[/url] That's three main posts about Ubuntu since 5.04...so repeated attacks is a bit of a stretch. I'd say I'm a skeptic as to why people are so taken with Ubuntu based upon my experience with it...which is all any of us really should base our opinions on...our own experience and not the experience of others. |
| helios Jul 04, 2006 2:56 PM EDT |
If I could please...a few things caught my eye. ***It sounds like they need someone to filter some of that noise before it gets to the developers. Get some thick-skinned, head-nurse type who can recognize the difference between a splinter and a skull fracture to do triage......" Someone wanna get Mr, I've-been-in-space-cause-I'm-rich-and-it-gets-me-(ahem)-attended-to on the phone and pass this nugget along to him? That is, if you can get him away from his mammary collection long enough to listen. No gratuitous backside kissing involved here grouch, your reasoning is brilliant. Having the immeasurable privilege of not belonging to that inner circle, I am only guessing when I state that the devs behave as such jerks cause they are a wee friggin' bit overwhelmed. How long has Markbuntu been number one on distro watch? Oh yeah, I remember now, since 8 weeks before it was ever conceived. I think grouch might have put his finger on it. Your subjection of the problem indicates to me that you have tangent thinking abilities. Didn't you and I meet at Tim Leary's place outside of Berkley in 68? You would remember the gathering well. God was there. ***I'd say I'm a skeptic as to why people are so taken with Ubuntu based upon my experience with it...which is all any of us really should base our opinions on...our own experience and not the experience of others........" Dang, two bingo's in a row. After reading all the hype about Ubuntu, I was mentally prepared to put the same effort into promoting Ubuntu as I did (and still do) in promoting PCLinuxOS. Two things dampened my enthusiasm. (1)My 7 attempts to use Ubuntu mirrored Carla's results and (2)the terrible mistake of mass luring new Linux Users into the Ubuntu Web. I personally know two people who are permanently damaged by the Ubuntu Experience. They have both built shrines to Bill Gates within their respective homes and the prayer sessions can last for hours. Medication and therapy is aiding their recovery, but there seems to be a violent relapse when either of them are exposed to a particular shade of brown. Ubuntu Sux, No it doesn't, yes it does, no it doesn't...If anyone sees a ticker across the bottom of Fox News resolving the spat, let me know. I will post it immediately. Oh, and for the record, so there is no ambiguities...Ubuntu sux. (the obligatory bet hedging by helios) Woodford may have hit it out of the park with his Mepis/Ubuntu breeding. I am running the beta on the test machine now and I gotta say, it is truly impressive. As curious as it is welcome, even the half-finished Xara-LX is included. The Ubuntu concept is great, as are the stated goals...it's just not working out the way I believe they wanted it to. Cross-reference grouch suggestion. We as a community seem to be taking two steps forward, one step back, and the official answer is NO...this is not the year of Linux. However is IS the year of the Distro. Magnificent improvements and innovations are being made and at a dizzying rate. I offer as evidence, Elive, VectorLInux (standard and SOHO) The mepis/Ubuntu Effort by Warren, Startcom, (yes, Startcom. check them out, especially their multimedia distro. This is the best distro no one has ever heard about. And Finally, Ubuntu. I think Ubuntu will pull it together this year and all of our bitching/musing/unconrolled sobbing will be moot. h |
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