Scallywag.
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| Author | Content |
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| salparadise Jun 30, 2006 11:19 PM EDT |
Devnet you are developing a positively Pavlovian response to Ubuntu. Seems like most of the time when you post it's to run Ubuntu down.
Your article is sort of accurate but very slanted at the same time. Point 1 - agreed, Ubuntu is not the only distro out there and there may well be better choices for "new users". Point 2 - hmmmm, AFAIK, Mepis no longer has NVIDIA/ATI drivers available in 2-3 clicks. It's now based on Kubuntu and you have to install the xorg package from synaptic and then edit xorg.conf as you do in Ubuntu. Any distro that "protects you from the shell" is not doing you any favours at all. The shell is an intrinsic part of Linux and most users will need to get to grips with it, if only in a small way. A gentle and guided intro to the shell would be much better. Point 3 - agreed. One of my frustrations with Ubuntu was the (seeming) refusal to have a clearly laid out manual on the Desktop on first boot. With particular emphasis given to why the multimedia capability is basically missing. While we're on this point, let's point out that most distros don't ship with multimedia support and that if the big commercial companies "found out" about certain distros "shipping with support for dvd and windows based media types" there'd be a flurry of law suits and appeals for financial help in the face of stiff fines. Providing this support without clear warnings of the potential consequences could backfire very badly. Imagine the scenario - users who thought they were using free software find out, when the letters from lawyers start appearing, that in fact they were breaking the law, only no-one told them. Other distros leave this risky software out but some bright spark decided to protect them from the need to learn how to use their computer. (OK, slightly lopsided scenario - but, you get the idea). Point 4 - for news users this is meaningless. And in light of your rant about the shell this is particularly poor as a criticism. Anyone who needs protection from the shell is hardly likely to want to compile their own software. Point 5 - Most distros come in i386 or i486 form. Suse comes in i586 and one or two even come in i686. Again, for a new user this is mostly meaningless. Though I will readily agree that the Ubuntu installer ought to detect the CPU and install the appropriate kernel for you. Ubuntu - pretty in brown? Makes a change from blue! You can't have a desktop without a colour scheme. We have a word here in the UK - scallywag. It means naughty in a sort of mischievous way (broad definition). So, Devnet, you are a scallywag. How about an article that doesn't mention Ubuntu? |
| jimf Jul 01, 2006 2:00 AM EDT |
I've got to agree with you sal. While I'm certainly no fan of Ubuntu, this just seems to be a Ubuntu put down followed by a thinly veiled plug for PCLos. Nothing to base an article on. |
| devnet Jul 01, 2006 6:54 AM EDT |
@ sal Scallawag? well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I don't feel I'm boisterous or disruptive in this article...so I don't feel I fit the bill for you label. For other recent articles I've written that don't involve Ubuntu...just look back in the blog for 2-3 days. Plenty there. http://linux-blog.org/index.php?/archives/155-Statistics-and... http://linux-blog.org/index.php?/archives/156-LinuxWorld-Pow... For the record, I'm not anti Ubuntu. I use Ubuntu at work as a document repository server. I use Kubuntu at home on a dual boot SuSe 10.1 machine. I love Linux and open source. I just HATE it when no one stops to consider that other distros out there may fit new users better than Ubuntu. NEW USERS. That's what I'm speaking of. Not people who have a vast technical background or a huge base of experience in Windows...we're talking the 50 year old grandma down the street. In my opinion, Ubuntu has not been critically evaluated (because people are too busy shouting hooray! and praising all its splendor) for problems it has. It's kinda like something that happened in the 1990's (circa 1991) in the United States in music. Everyone...and I mean everyone...loved Vanilla Ice. I didn't. I wondered what the hell everyone was talking about and didn't jump that bandwagon. So, I felt it was time to examine where Ubuntu may fall short for the new user. I encouraged people to try other distros such as arch, foresight, Xandros, Linspire, Kanotix, PCLOS, and MEPIS. I don't see how this is a bad thing? It's definately not mischievous. As far as point 4: The point I was trying to make in this instance is that choice was taken away from the new user. They didn't get that opportunity to choose if it was there...and they have some work ahead of them to find out how to put it back. Point 2: I know of users who still don't know how to type the URL in Internet Explorer. Hell, they don't even know what IE is when I ask them about it. If I ask them about a Browser, they don't know what I'm talking about. It's these same people that can STILL use Windows because it is easier for them. Most people want to plug and play everything. Until Linux is like this, I don't feel it will be a viable replacement for Windows on the desktops of users like this. It's a viable replacement for many tech savvy people, but that hits a small percentage of us. If we want the Linux desktop to arrive...we have to cater to people like this. That means, no shell action. If you disagree, you're not in touch with the reality of users like that I mentioned above. MEPIS "official" latest release is still not based on Ubuntu...only release candidates...so I'm still 100% accurate. Once the next full release comes out I'll be wrong...Possibly. Since I haven't downloaded the latest release and tried it out, I don't know. I know warren is fond of pinning apt sources to mepis repositories...so it is possible that he will yet again have 1-2 click installs of nvidia and ati. Seems silly for him to take a step back now doesn't it? Jimf, I used nothing but facts to write this article. The only reason PCLOS is mentioned more than twice is to compliment it on its New User Guide. We're very proud of that accomplishment and I feel that it is unique in the open source world...almost unparalleled. Otherwise, it would have been mentioned just as much as other distros I talked about in there such as MEPIS, Kanotix, and Xandros. There's no 'thinly vield plug' existing on my page. Perhaps it exists in your imagination and from what you know about me as a person. |
| salparadise Jul 01, 2006 7:24 AM EDT |
devnet I do you hope I didn't come over as attacking you. I wasn't. Damn this impersonal typing! I like your style 99% of the time (though you do post negatively about Ubuntu a lot). There's nothing personal going on from my end. Just thought a couple of things needed saying. For the record, Suse and Fedora don't install the compiler stuff either, in fact, I can't think of a single distro, with the possible exception of slackware (and then only if you choose "Install Everything") that does. Debian maybe? I'm not questioning your commitment to OSS, I wouldn't dare (unless you stared posting that noobs ought to stick to Windows). I did try to re-edit my initial post to add that scallywag has connotations of "lovable rogue" to it but for some reason the browser crashed and then time ran out and I had to be elsewhere. All of which is easy to say after the fact, but tis true. No offense intended and a great big apology if offense was taken. Distro-politics is a slippery trap, easy to fall into and hard to get out of. Ubuntu makes me uneasy, a ridiculous reaction really. I really do want to see Linux succeed and I do wonder why I react as I do to the success Ubuntu has found. I have to keep reminding myself at times that, in my own words, "it's enough to use Linux", even if I would prefer the world used my personal favourite (which I also have to admit is a changeable thing). I'm currently running SuSE 10.1, a bit of a blow after several happy months on Slackware (it's a work thing), though I have to admit, SuSE 10.1 is whole heap better than 9.x. They might even get somewhere with this release. |
| devnet Jul 01, 2006 9:47 AM EDT |
Quoting:though you do post negatively about Ubuntu a lot Yeah...I do quite a bit. It irks me that people get roasted alive for bringing any criticism to ubuntu...it's almost like it is the golden child of Linux and cannot be touched. I hate that...no distro should be above constructive criticism. BTW...No offense taken. I about spit out my orange juice this morning when I read it (made me laugh quite a bit). I wished you could have changed it to Swashbuckler. Then I could have donned a patch and shouted Arrrrr! at everyone :D Crap, they're roasting me alive on my blog comments though. Odd. I'm just trying to help new users of Linux decide what's best for them. Many new users don't even realize that Ubuntu ISN'T the only Linux flavor out there. Very sad times we live in. |
| salparadise Jul 01, 2006 10:33 AM EDT |
Unfortunately I suspect that widespread support for Linux will only come from the hardware vendors and the big software houses when one distro is clearly going to be "the lead distro". For all the obvious, if wearisome, economic reasons.
Ubuntu is in a prime position to be this, or at least it appears to be. Novell obviously are trying really hard to make SuSE into this distro. Are there any others in the position to take the lead in this way? And should we support this idea and get behind one distro in particular to this end, sacrificing, if necessary, our own particular personal preferences for the "greater good"? (Even though this would inevitably lead to some commercial distros falling by the way side). |
| devnet Jul 01, 2006 1:55 PM EDT |
Sal, I really dig Novell and Suse...mainly because they're always looking for ways to improve the user _experience_ as opposed to just adding more bells and whistles. There was a podcast on Suse 10.1 a while back that was on novell.com that showed the main developers (can't remember their names right now) showing off the new UI and how it improved the user performance. Loved it. Thought it was fantastic and that they REALLY were in touch with how a desktop should be. Each release of Ubuntu doesn't convince me of this. Each release of SuSe does. That's why If I had to choose a distro as the poster child, I'd want Suse to be it. |
| jimf Jul 01, 2006 2:12 PM EDT |
> golden child of Linux Well, that's certainly the hype, and it would sometimes appear that's the only fully functional aspect of it. I'm just afraid that any rational criticism is made nearly impossible by the cult followers. It's just viewed as 'negative press'. Or justified by stuff like 'well, Debian has problems too'. What a crock, but the cult believes it. |
| grouch Jul 01, 2006 2:26 PM EDT |
salparadise: >"And should we support this idea and get behind one distro in particular to this end, sacrificing, if necessary, our own particular personal preferences for the "greater good"?" No, for there is no need for one lead distro. The OSDL is doing good work in working out standards which ease the worries of ISVs, which in turn eases the worries of retailers. Novell, Red Hat and others are doing good work in getting hardware makers to understand the advantages of turning over driver work to the kernel developers. A lot of businesses just move with glacial speed. That's not unreasonable when you consider that established businesses can jeopardize a lot of jobs and bottom line by making bold, quick moves into new markets. It generally takes a few startups to dive in and accumulate some statistics before older companies begin to move. |
| jdixon Jul 01, 2006 9:14 PM EDT |
> ith the possible exception of slackware (and then only if you choose "Install Everything") Gcc is marked as add in the Slackware tag file, so if you select the d set at all, it's installed. You don't have to select the d set, of course. |
| Libervis Jul 02, 2006 1:51 PM EDT |
I noticed that devnet tends to be negative about Ubuntu as well. Actually, I kind of expected to see devnet signed as the author even before I scrolled down to see the actual signature (and I didn't recognize it as devnets blog with the new design mind you). :) I'd say it's OK. Someone's gotta tell new people that Ubuntu isn't all there is to GNU/Linux. Devnet promised five unique tips that noone will find anywhere else and he sure delivered on that. ;) My take on Ubuntu? I think it's just a current torch bearer and in that sense we ought to support it, but of course, it shouldn't still be below the radar of construsctive criticism. Just my 2c as they say. :) |
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