Strange story.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| dinotrac Jun 25, 2006 3:40 AM EDT |
Apple is about shock value? Doesn't sound like an Apple user to me. When I think Apple, I think sleek, smooth useability. Whether the Mac interface or the iPod's, Apple seeks to embrace the user. The place where Linux could fit would be on the back-end, driving the Mac interface. But...that's already running BSD, and an honest evaluation would find little advantage to Apple (or Apple users) in replacing their BSD back-end with Linux. |
| grouch Jun 25, 2006 6:27 AM EDT |
dinotrac: >"When I think Apple, I think sleek, smooth useability.
Whether the Mac interface or the iPod's, Apple seeks to embrace the user." When I think Apple, I think of trading the MS cage for another. See: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/63621/index.html http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/63575/index.html |
| dinotrac Jun 25, 2006 7:31 AM EDT |
grouch: I would bet that you and I are not very typical PC users. Even so, I admire Apple's products, whether or not the software is free. I don't own a Mac:can't bring myself to pay for one. I am, however, envious of how smoothly Macs handle multimedia. Sweet. |
| jdixon Jun 25, 2006 8:06 AM EDT |
> Whether the Mac interface or the iPod's, Apple seeks to embrace the user. Well, I think envelope might be a better word than embrace, as it has the correct postive and negative conotations. but otherwise I agree. |
| grouch Jun 25, 2006 8:44 AM EDT |
dinotrac: The typical computer user needs the protection of FOSS even more than the geeky user. They are even more at the mercy and whim of secretive software than we are. I would not recommend OSX to anyone, especially to non-geeks, just as I would not recommend MS to anyone (except MS execs). Non-geeks need protection from rootkits and spyware and other attacks by closed source vendors. |
| dinotrac Jun 25, 2006 11:23 AM EDT |
grouch: You are preaching to the choir. However, non-geeks (like geeks) also need to get things done. When it comes to multimedia, it's very hard to beat a Mac. I admit to envy. |
| salparadise Jun 25, 2006 12:11 PM EDT |
Multimedia schmultimedia. Are we so passive that we'll accept any old restrictive nonsense from a machine, just as long as it plays a nice tune and has a slick GUI? Apple - the next Microsoft? Well duh! They even run on the the same hardware now. Can you not see it coming? You can have any OS you like as long as it's Apple or MS and DRM'd to hell and back. sal takes a deep breath Remember when computers were tools? Now they're sold as "stand-alone all you need" entertainment units. And thus will you reeled in and locked down. We have one slim chance at freedom. It's called Linux. It all comes down to how much you value that freedom. |
| dinotrac Jun 25, 2006 12:20 PM EDT |
sal - To clarify - I am referring to multimedia production. And yes, a Mac is a very fine tool for multimedia production. As to Apple being the next Microsoft, you need to take another deep breath. What makes Microsoft so awful is not the lousy software, self-righteousness, nasty business practices, or oxymoronic business ethics. In that regard, they're not incredibly different from many other companies -- cough! -- Oracle -- cough! -- Dell -- cough! -- you get the idea. What makes Microsoft so awful is its vise (or, if you prefer punnery, vice) grip on computer desktops. It's monopoly makes its practices overbearingly painful and powerful. Apple doesn't have that monopoly, and it ain't likely to happen any time soon. What Apple really is is competition, another choice. That is a good thing. |
| salparadise Jun 25, 2006 9:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:What Apple really is is competition, another choice. That is a good thing. A different coloured bit of fluff on the handcuffs is not choice. A different set of companies to have to keep paying is not choice. This so called god of choice, which we are constantly told is a good thing to have, is an illusion. When people start pointing out that "we have more choice" it's usually the opposite. Sure, go to Walmart and you have 37 makes of breakfast cereal "to choose from". The question is, do you have anywhere but Walmart to go to? (I'm sort of guessing here, not being a US resident, I know in some places there's next to no choice but walmart, things are also going this way in the UK with the supermarkets). Apple is not more choice, it's a different set of jailers is all. I know we could go round in circles for months on this one and still get no further than personal opinions. I don't like Apple. Alarm bells ring. I think their advertising is far more subversive and dangerous than Microsofts. The "coolness" that they have successfully generated around their products is testament to this. Quoting: Apple is a great tool for multimedia. IF you can afford it. So it's not really a good tool at all is it? The world is not a marketplace - this is a lie told by capitalists to justify their behaviour. Commerce is evil. The world is our home and we are each others keepers. I would not try to sell my brother the means by which to be healthy or wise. For the good of us all or don't even bother. For those of you reading this thinking "well that's all well and good but how do you propose to run the planet without commerce, competition, profit etc?" The answer is I don't know. But that in no way means I have to keep silent about a corrupt and evil system and in no way means we have to accept things as they are. |
| jimf Jun 25, 2006 10:09 PM EDT |
> Apple is a great tool for multimedia. LOL, so 'they' keep saying. |
| dinotrac Jun 26, 2006 2:24 AM EDT |
Sal, Jimf - Now you guys are just being whacky. Yes, the Mac is a great tool for multimedia. That's why so many musicians, video production and graphics shops use them. It's the one desktop market that Windows hasn't managed to dominate. As to jailers, sal, you have really got to change tobacco. Don't want to buy a proprietary solution? Fine. Don't do it. But Apple is not Microsoft. Apple could be twice as nasty (well, if that were possible) as Microsoft and they would not be Microsoft because APPLE DOESN'T HAVE A FREAKIN' MONOPOLY. They don't have market power. If anything, they have less of the desktop market than Linux. It is not Apple's fault that more choices don't exist. It is not Apple's fault that the free software market has not provided an equally good platform for multimedia production. If I had the money to spare and did more production work than I do, I would happily consider a Mac (in addition to, not instead of my Linux boxes). My Mac-using friends love their computers (something I can't say for my Windows-using friends). They are well-served. If they are prisoners, then jail ain't lookin' bad. As to Wal-Mart, what a goofy thing to say. You are confusing the US with the Soviet Union. People bypass other stores to shop at Wal-Mart. Elitists hate it because it drives charming but uncompetitive local establishments out of businesses. Shoppers love it because it improves their lives. Wal-Mart employees don't get a great deal -- though the company does promote from within -- but that's true of retail in general. Personally, I prefer local businesses. I also prefer live music to CDs and live theatre to movies, but I can't stop progress and I don't care to keep music or other entertainment away from folks who can't afford to attend a performance. |
| number6x Jun 26, 2006 5:23 AM EDT |
Not quite on-topic, but still mac and apple related... I was at the 1st annual rails conf over the weekend. About 2/3rds of the developers there were using macs. The unix nature of OS/X really sparkled at the conf. To see a vital, growing group of developers seamlessly developing on macs and deploying on macs or linux was amazing. The idea of mac users that spend a good chunk of their time at the bash shell may not be part of the vision of the mac in 1984, but it is a reality today. At least I was running linux on my hp and didn't feel like the few windows users (totally out numbered and out classed). I think i'm getting a mac mini to add to my collection of assorted pc's. I've got to get caught up at work (an important development library got overwritten by someone on Saturday, and we've missed a delivery), but I'll do an article on the rails conf as soon as I can. take a few days off and it all goes to hell. |
| salparadise Jun 26, 2006 5:50 AM EDT |
Quoting:As to Wal-Mart, what a goofy thing to say. You are confusing the US with the Soviet Union. Perhaps the "facts" I've seen are all full of lies then. Personally I wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole. I saw a documentary that horrified me. Suppression of unions, pay so low that wal-mart employees have to claim a lot of benefits, the destruction of small town communities with all the loss of identity and purpose that goes with that. It might be cheaper at the till but at what cost to your social structure? |
| dinotrac Jun 26, 2006 6:51 AM EDT |
sal - The Wal-Mart story, like most business stories, is a mixed-bag of good and bad. As to low pay, that's more a matter of the industry than the company. You could easily do an expose on the pay of dishwashers at a large restaurant chain. That restaurant would look awful -- their dishwashers don't make a lot of money. But then, neither do anybody else's. |
| jimf Jun 26, 2006 7:33 AM EDT |
> Now you guys are just being whacky. Thanks for the personal slam dino :). > Yes, the Mac is a great tool for multimedia. Again, so 'they' keep saying. > That's why so many musicians, video production and graphics shops use them. No... People in those industries use them because early on they got a virtual monopoly on proprietary formats and the graphics market in particular, not because Linux or even Windows won't get the job done just as well. > As to jailers, sal, you have really got to change tobacco. Don't want to buy a proprietary solution? Fine. Don't do it. But Apple is not Microsoft. Apple could be twice as nasty (well, if that were possible) as Microsoft and they would not be Microsoft because APPLE DOESN'T HAVE A FREAKIN' MONOPOLY. They don't have market power. If anything, they have less of the desktop market than Linux. As I said above, Apple does indeed have a virtual monopoly in certain business sectors, although that may be weakening. Also, Apple may be a more exemplary business than MS, but that's only by degree and shouldn't be any kind of recommendation at all. > It is not Apple's fault that the free software market has not provided an equally good platform for multimedia production. I agree with that one, but, Linux has pretty much caught up, at least with the graphics. > My Mac-using friends love their computers (something I can't say for my Windows-using friends). They are well-served. If they are prisoners, then jail ain't lookin' bad. Kind of 'how much prison can ya stand' huh. As to Wal-Mart, -- but that's true of retail in general. sal is right on that one. If comparing Wal-Mart and MS, I think that you'd find MS to be a far more ethical business model. But again, that's a matter of degree, so why do we want to support either. |
| dcparris Jun 26, 2006 12:36 PM EDT |
I've deleted jimf's extra posts here. He just picked a bad week to quit snorting bits. |
| jimf Jun 26, 2006 12:43 PM EDT |
Ba da, ba da, ba da... Thanks Don :D |
| dcparris Jun 26, 2006 2:58 PM EDT |
> > My Mac-using friends love their computers (something I can't say for my Windows-using friends). They are well-served. If they are prisoners, then jail ain't lookin' bad. Actually, you'd be surprised just how many people actually think that way. Three meals a day and a place to stay is, to some, better than bustin' their backside at Micky D's for just over minimum wage. By the time you take out taxes on a week's pay, you can almost afford to pay the power bill. I've known couples who actually live like that. But some would rather go to jail. |
| jimf Jun 26, 2006 3:04 PM EDT |
Lol Don, maybe I should have said 'what kind of prision can you stand?'. |
| dinotrac Jun 26, 2006 4:08 PM EDT |
Rev - There's one big difference in the case of Mac users - they got to make a choice. |
| dcparris Jun 26, 2006 6:00 PM EDT |
> There's one big difference in the case of Mac users - they got to make a choice. They may not have a choice about which jail they go to, but ultimately, criminals choose to put themselves in the position of going to jail. In fact, it's kind of a matter of demographics. The suits spend time in a specialized "executive" joint that is more like a house than a jail. The masses go to the slab joints. And the analogy might even be quite good. Mac users: Typically higher-end customers. Feel MS doesn't handle multimedia well enough, and GNU/Linux systems require too much effort. Macs are easy and have the multimedia capabilities, even if you are restricted to some extent in what you can do. Criminals: Feel minimum wage is insufficient, and furthering education requires too much effort. Jail is livable (mostly) and the meals are included, even if you are restricted as to what you can do. The Enron execs go to the Mac jails, while the local mob boss spends time the Windows jails. |
| dinotrac Jun 26, 2006 6:05 PM EDT |
Hey Rev, seriously -- Have you tried video editing and compositing on a Mac? They really are good. I use Cinelerra on Linux for my video stuff, but, if I were a professional, I'd seriously consider a Mac. It would make me more efficient, and that would make me money. |
| grouch Jun 26, 2006 6:22 PM EDT |
dinotrac: I really don't care how nice the cots are; I still wouldn't trade one cage for another. It's just too easy to stay out of both. |
| dcparris Jun 26, 2006 6:25 PM EDT |
> Have you tried video editing and compositing on a Mac? No, I haven't. I started with Windows, and Mac is non-libre. Non-free loses its value in my eyes, because it lacks the freedom I need/want/demand/expect. However great the software may be, it really isn't all that great if it isn't libre. In the end, it costs more than mere money. Yet, mere money can help me improve the libre software I use. I'll be publishing an article on this in the near future. |
| dinotrac Jun 26, 2006 7:05 PM EDT |
Rev - I admire your principles, but if I had to make my living doing video work, I'd probably throw a Mac in the mix. I don't see anything wrong with using a Mac, but I do see something wrong with not taking care of my kids. |
| grouch Jun 28, 2006 8:58 AM EDT |
dinotrac: >"I don't see anything wrong with using a Mac, but I do see something wrong with not taking care of my kids." Talk about a straw-man argument! You gloss over the recent news which illustrates what is wrong with Mac, that is, the same thing that is wrong with all vendor-controlled systems: They put you at the mercy of the vendor's marketing goals. You also imply that a Mac somehow makes the difference between taking care of your kids and not, just to support your argument for it. If you base your business on a closed, single-vendor system, your business is dependent upon that vendor's desire to satisfy your needs. It doesn't matter if the vendor's name is Apple or Microsoft. Your business is better off depending upon itself. Therefore, where ever possible, your business should use software that can be adapted and maintained without appealing to a single vendor. In the field of video creation and editing, you could follow the examples of Pixar and Sony, which use GNU/Linux. |
| jimf Jun 28, 2006 9:28 AM EDT |
Well put grouch. |
| dinotrac Jun 28, 2006 9:48 AM EDT |
grouch: >Therefore, where ever possible, your business should use software that can be adapted and maintained without appealing to a single vendor. So, let's say I'm in the video business (I'm not). Let's also assume that I want to stay in business, take care of my children -- and even see them once in a while. What do I use? |
| grouch Jun 28, 2006 7:15 PM EDT |
dinotrac: Software for which part of the business? I'll assume just the image-specific stuff, since contacts and accounting are pretty old hat in FOSS. For high-end videos, you'd probably want CinePaint (formerly called Film-Gimp): "CinePaint is an open source painting program used by motion picture studios to retouch images in 35mm films. It was formerly called Film Gimp. It has been used in a dozen feature films including Harry Potter, Scooby-Doo, and the Fast & the Furious." You could also set up a render farm and run Cinelerra. If you're just making composites for weddings, graduations, etc., rather than full production at film quality, you might want something like dvdstyler and dvd-slideshow. (You could use gopchop, but it doesn't have as fine a control on editing, being limited to I-frame boundaries). Kino is ok, too. You could use dvgrab to pull in the customer's home video directly from their Firewire-equipped camera. Use dvdauthor and dvd+rw-tools to produce standard DVDs (+-R/RW) after production. For an extra little touch, you could use emovix to make bootable CDs and DVDs for such customers to hand out to their PC owning friends and relatives. If you want to produce fancy titles and graphics, you'd probably want mindseye, blender, imagemagick and gimp on hand. You can incorporate the images into the final production using any of the video editors mentioned above. I used mostly CLI tools to turn out DVDs of the local high school football team's season for their "boosters", but I'm no graphics artist. All I needed to do was just produce a short opening sequence, a menu system with a team shot as background and buttons any DVD player could deal with, simple editing of their game films, a roster sequence and stats sequence, with auto-repeat for inactivity. A real artist would want the pointy-clicky tools above as well as the CLI ones (don't starve an artist for tools if you're paying her or him to work). The best thing about FOSS tools is that they can be adapted to the artist, rather than forcing the artist to adapt to the tool. |
| dinotrac Jun 28, 2006 7:25 PM EDT |
So, grough...how many of these things have you used? I have used Cinelerra for years, as well as Kino. Cinelerra is one of my favorite pieces of software, but it's not nearly so smooth as some Mac solutions. Cinelerra lets me do things that I shouldn't be able to afford, but I still can't figure out the video de-noising and haven't found any documentation that sheds any light on it. Apart from file format limitations and a few stability problems, Cinelerra's biggest problem is the lack of sufficient documentation. For all I've learned to do with it, I'm sure it's keeping a few secrets from me still. I've had far less luck with CinePaint, but I suspect that's because I haven't needed the 24-bit (or does it only do 16?) capability enough to mess with it that much. I'm a great admirer of blender, but it is not a video production tool. The Gimp is a fine tool - and works for some of what I do. If I were professional, the Gimp would be useless because it lacks the necessary color-depth. That is where CInePaint comes in...and maybe I would have spent a little more time trying to get it to play nice. I don't mind using these things for the video work I do now. If I were trying to make a living, though, I'd have to look real hard at a Mac. |
| grouch Jun 28, 2006 8:00 PM EDT |
dinotrac: I didn't list any I haven't used, though I have never set up a proper render farm for Cinelerra and even the "workstation" I've used it on wasn't up to their recommendation. dinotrac: >"I've had far less luck with CinePaint, but I suspect that's because I haven't needed the 24-bit (or does it only do 16?) capability enough to mess with it that much." Um, CinePaint has a 32 bit per channel color engine. You don't do the arrows in "The Last Samurai" with MSPaint. You can't do pro photos and the Harry Potter movies with MacPaint. You suit the tool to the job. That's why I listed tools ranging from those that Sony Pictures uses to those you could use for Joe's daughter's graduation from 3rd grade. If you're not going into the video or graphics business, check out http://www.tuxgraphics.org for some tutorials. |
| jimf Jun 28, 2006 8:18 PM EDT |
dino, try lives. http://lives.sourceforge.net/ |
| dinotrac Jun 29, 2006 9:00 AM EDT |
jimf -- Looks like lives has come a long way. I'll have to try it out for some light-duty work. Jashaka also looks promising. Neither one, however is industrial strength. Cinelerra is. For all my frustrations with it, Cinelerra remains my most important video tool. It has a heavy-duty compositing engine makes serious video work possible. If only SOMEBODY would do a tutorial on its video-denoising plugin. Irks me no end. You'd think the chroma-key stuff would be tough (and it took a while to get comfortable with it), but it really isn't. I can get it to work pretty well. Video denoise? Not a speck of luck so far. I'm sure there's a doh! moment in there somewhere, but I haven't hit it yet. On the good side, now that I've upgraded my wife's workstation, it becomes a reasonable render node. Cinelerra is powerful, but when you're laying on 4 video tracks, multiple effects and keyframed masks, it can be a little pokey! Go figure. |
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