muddied thinking
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| jimf May 14, 2006 11:17 AM EDT |
Some awfully muddied thinking here. Lots of bugs in Ubuntu and Debian unstable... Well Duh! Unstable is a part of the Debian debug process for gods sake... Many Distros use Debian unstable or testing to create their own Distro, but they have to assume responsibility for that, as Debian certainly doesn't see it as certified bug free. If Ubuntu wants to help with the Debian debug process, and contribute back to Debian, that's fine (my feeling is that they 'owe' Debian that courtesy), but it still goes back into experimental or at least unstable... as it should. You can't just bypass the Debian debug process. Debian stable is called 'stable' for a good reason. |
| keithcu May 14, 2006 11:58 AM EDT |
I did not complain that there are bugs in debian unstable. I understand Debian's processes and like them, other than the pace. What I'm saying is that I'm not sure Ubuntu should build on top of unstable, especially if it wants do provide long term support. Also, building on top of unstable is only a part of why Ubuntu is buggy. |
| jimf May 14, 2006 12:22 PM EDT |
Keith, I understand that Ubuntu's bugs are caused by a number of factors, but it all boils down to their desire to provide the latest and greatest, or at least a slightly different set than Debian... Otherwise, why not just use Debian proper. Because Debian is holding to it's own debug schedule, unstable and even testing are in constant flux, so it's very difficult to get a snapshot for development of a secondary Distro. This is something that is a problem for all the secondary Distros, not just Ubuntu. I don't see how Debian can respond to this? Slow down their release cycle? They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. I may be wrong, but you also seem to imply that Debian should somehow 'fall in step' with Ubuntu's goals. I don't see that is desirable, or even possible. |
| keithcu May 14, 2006 3:17 PM EDT |
Another of the reasons Ubuntu might have so many bugs is because it has more users and so they are finding more issues; many of these bugs might exist in Debian. I specifically ask that question in my article: how many of these bugs exist in Debian: [url=https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/ bugs?]https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/ bugs?[/url] I actually think building on unstable is a small part and meant it as an aside. Yes, figuring out what build of Debian to grab is a hard decision to make. However, if Debian were to ship every 12 months then it would make it more likely that Ubuntu could live with a stable release. Its only when the stable bits are 3 years old that people become forced to use unstable. The Linux kernel ships 3-4x per year, so its possible to ship frequently and be stable. I don't want Debian to fall in line with any other distro, but I do want to make sure it is around in 10 years and I do think there are things they can learn from Ubuntu: ship more frequently, focus on laptop scenarios like suspend & hibernate, etc. BTW, I do feel that Ubuntu could threaten the health of Debian. Debian needs fresh blood to grow the product and work on the bug list and add new features and if Ubuntu has all the excitement, Debian could start to die out. I don't think its likely, but I do think its possible. |
| jimf May 14, 2006 3:50 PM EDT |
Since Ubuntu is using unstable or testing Debian as a base, I don't see how they would have much impact on the bugs remaining in stable. If they fix bugs in their contributions, then it will, of course, reflect in the next stable release, but, they should be doing that anyway.Quoting:I actually think building on unstable is a small part and meant it as an aside. Perhaps you meant it that way, but, I think this is central to the whole issue and how Ubuntu relates to Debian. As far as Debian surviving, well, if Debian goes, I doubt that Ubuntu would do well either. I think that the developers at Ubuntu realize that. As far as 10 years down the line, who knows what we will all be running :D. |
| keithcu May 14, 2006 9:52 PM EDT |
I have sent a few e-mails with one of the Debian X maintainers, and he thinks that many of Ubuntu's (X bugs at least) should exist in Debian as well. Therefore, the risk of bugs languishing in Ubuntu could be a very real problem. Yes, if Debian dies, we all know that Ubuntu is in trouble, but that doesn't mean that it won't be an unintended consequence. Developers program the OS they use and if Debian's user base isn't growing, its developer base is threatened. |
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